Talk:2023 Cardiff riot

Misleading article from top to bottom
The article repeatedly says that the "rumors" of police being involved in the accident are "false", however, there are absolutely no citations or sources for this claim. In fact, a source that I was able to find has verified a video of police chasing an electric scooter, like the one the two victims were on during the crash, just minutes before the crash. 2A00:CA8:A16:2528:A80F:36C1:6D3E:3904 (talk) 16:33, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Earlier media reports treated the social media rumours as false and repeated the PCC's claim that the police were not involved as true. With the new CCTV footage, the article has been amended to carefully reflect this and claims that the rumours were "false" have been removed. This article will continue to evolve as new information comes to light. Thanks, —Noswall59 (talk) 16:39, 23 May 2023 (UTC).
 * Just in: Police Police commissioner, Alun Michael, says it’s ‘possible’ two teenage boys killed in Ely crash were chased
 * Adds more ambiguity, considering that the situation is still rather fluid, should we edit the article in connection with this ?
 * https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/cardiff-riots-crash-ely-news-today-b2344630.html Alexandria Bucephalous (talk) 10:12, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Hmm, almost like making a wikipedia article the day after something happened is a bad idea due to lack of sources available. ≈≈ Kind Regards, NotAnotherNameGuy (talk) 14:32, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
 * There were enough sources when the article was created to make a short article & demonstrate the riot's notability. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 14:36, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Haha!
 * Ah, the art of speedy article writing! When news breaks, we Wiki enthusiasts leap into action, scouring the web like detectives on a caffeine-fueled spree. Armed with reliable sources, we create articles faster than a viral video goes viral! Because in the Wikiverse, being swift is the name of the game. So, grab your keyboard, fuel up on coffee, and let's break the internet with knowledge in record time! Time is of the essence, my friend, and we're here to document the world one article at a time, tout de suite! Alexandria Bucephalous (talk) 15:02, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Yer, we're not a news service. We should really stand back and see what the outcome is, rather than report every dot and comma of what is said. There may be no long-term consequences of this riot, in which case we may not need a standalone article. Not everything on the news needs a Wikipedia article. I notice there isn't a peep on Wikipedia about the Mayhill riot last year. Sionk (talk) 15:20, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Maybe because no-one was killed, especially not two teenagers? 205.239.40.3 (talk) 15:40, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

Names
The two boys were Kyrees Sullivan, 16, and Harvey Evans, 15. Their names have been very widely reported, e.g. here. Should they be named in the article? 205.239.40.3 (talk) 12:45, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
 * What value do you think the names would add to the article? -- DeFacto (talk). 12:50, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Factual accuracy and consistency with mainstream media reports. What value do you think excluding the names would add to the article? Some editors might wish to move the name of this article to "Death of Kyrees Sullivan and Harvey Evans". 205.239.40.3 (talk) 12:52, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
 * We shouldn't name non-notable minors. The riot is notable, but none of the people involved are. Had the riot not happened, the crash wouldn't have received much media coverage & we wouldn't have an article about it. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 14:36, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I guess Alun Michael is notable. There may yet be others. I don't see how not naming the two boys in any way protects them or their families. Kyrees Sullivan's mother, Belinda, took to social media to plead with the rioters to stop. This too has been widely reported. 205.239.40.3 (talk) 15:46, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Michael is notable & named in the article. The victims' identities isn't what the riots were about, so I can't see why we should name them when we usually wouldn't. Their names wouldn't help readers to understand what happened. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 15:55, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Does the name Trayvon Martin "help readers to understand what happened" etc., etc.? I would argue that the victims' identities were very much what the riots were about. Maybe 90% what they were about. 205.239.40.3 (talk) 08:20, 25 May 2023 (UTC)
 * That's very different; that article is about a killing. This article is about a riot. How can the identities of the Ely crash victims be central to what happened? Most of the rioters didn't know the victims of the crash. They weren't rioting because they were bereaved. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 09:42, 25 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I've seen no RS source that states "most of the rioters didn't know the victims of the crash". If you have one you should add it. The names of people who die, in any article about a death, is basic reporting. The fact that these boys were teenagers made their deaths more significant. 205.239.40.3 (talk) 09:51, 25 May 2023 (UTC)
 * They were ordinary local residents, not community leaders or local celebrities.. Of course the large majority of the hundreds of people present during the riot didn't know them personally. Like I said, this article isn't about the deaths; it's about a riot that followed. That makes it substantially different to articles which are about deaths. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 16:32, 25 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I think you'll find there are many articles about riots in the US, that are not "about deaths", but where the victims are clearly named. To say that this article is "substantially different" to those is somewhat irrational? 86.187.237.158 (talk) 21:25, 25 May 2023 (UTC)
 * It's substantially different to articles about deaths. Some articles about riots in response to deaths may name those who died, but that doesn't mean they should. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 22:09, 25 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Agree that the names should be included. They are being widely reported. ClevelandUpdates (talk) 15:41, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

Title
The DAB page Ely riot has these:
 * Ely and Littleport riots of 1816, in the Isle of Ely, Cambridgeshire
 * Cardiff Ely bread riots, in Cardiff in 1991
 * 2023 Cardiff riot, in Ely, Cardiff in 2023

Should the name of this article be changed to 2023 Cardiff Ely riot or something similar? At the moment it suggests the riot took place across the whole of Cardiff. Even "Ely" is a bit mislaading, as the rioting was confined to one single street? 205.239.40.3 (talk) 10:04, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I think the titles on that page should be changed to 1816 Ely and Littleport riots, 1991 Ely riots & 2023 Ely riot. That's the standard, concise format; there weren't any riots in any of the other places named Ely during any of those years. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 15:41, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Agree. Those changes would all be very sensible. 86.187.163.77 (talk) 08:56, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

The vehicle ridden by the two deceased
It now looks likely that the vehicle ridden by the two deceased was a Sur Ron electric moped. The legislation for electric mopeds in Wales is completely different from that for electric bikes. S C Cheese (talk) 12:23, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
 * The article should detail this, as well as whether riding one on public roads at 15, with a passenger, neither wearing a helmet, is legal. If there are laws against that, it would explain why the police were following them. In some sources, the footage has had about 15 seconds cut out of it, making it look like the police van was a couple of seconds behind the bike. It was initially described by the media as an e-bike, so I was surprised at how fast it was travelling in the CCTV footage. The article should also say what the bike collided with. Some initial media reports said a bus, but the bus company has said that no bus was involved. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 13:21, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
 * The article clearly says that Cardiff Bus said no bus was involved. This is clearly sourced and there has been nothing reported since to contradict this. I'm pretty sure it is not legal for two passengers to ride on a single bike, because it's very easy to lose balance and have an accident. 86.187.231.230 (talk) 17:23, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
 * What about e-scooters? There is advice from South Wales Police about them here. Generally road traffic law in England and Wales applies equally in both countries. It's important to note that police only started following the boys after they rode towards the police van and then turned around. There is a map of events at the BBC source here:  There are conflicting reports of whether or not the boys were travelling within the speed limit. But what was the speed limit on Frank Road? 86.187.231.230 (talk) 17:19, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't think that eScooters are relevant to this incident. S C Cheese (talk) 21:14, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
 * In which case, could you give a source which explains how "the legislation for electric mopeds in Wales is completely different from that for electric bikes"? Or do you mean "in the UK"? And do you have any RS source(s) for it being a Sur-Ron electric moped? Thanks. 86.187.170.217 (talk) 21:22, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, I meant in the UK. That is where this happened. S C Cheese (talk) 21:25, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Source for Sur-Ron:
 * https://metro.co.uk/2023/05/27/e-bike-involved-in-fatal-cardiff-crash-was-birthday-present-to-teen-18854846/
 * Search engines have many others but I think that pages have been edited because of the age of the deceased. S C Cheese (talk) 21:28, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Just to note that, per WP:METRO, Metro is not considered to be a reliable source, and so is not suitable for use by Wikipedia. -- DeFacto (talk). 21:34, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
 * The Independent also: . Thanks. 86.187.170.217 (talk) 21:37, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Yep, that one is better. Thanks. -- DeFacto (talk). 21:41, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Is there an Independent article that still contains "Sur-Ron"? S C Cheese (talk) 21:46, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks. So what about UK legislation for electric mopeds being "completely different" from that for electric bikes? 86.187.170.217 (talk) 21:36, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
 * https://www.gov.uk/electric-bike-rules
 * https://www.gov.uk/ride-motorcycle-moped S C Cheese (talk) 21:44, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
 * In the UK eBikes do not require registration, insurance or the wearing of helmets. Electric mopeds do. S C Cheese (talk) 21:45, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Do Sur-Ron make mopeds? Their website only shows electric motorbikes. -- DeFacto (talk). 21:52, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
 * The UK site has the "Light Bee". That's an L1E-b moped.https://sur-ron.co.uk/light-bee/ S C Cheese (talk) 06:29, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
 * @S C Cheese, how do we know that is legally categorised as a moped rather than a motorbike? -- DeFacto (talk). 07:56, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
 * So that gov.uk source says "Mopeds: The way moped entitlements are shown on your licence have changed, but you still need to be 16 to ride one." Do we know which boy was driving? Is that model of Sur-Ron a single seater? In the UK motorcycle riders cannot carry passengers until they have passed their full test (i.e. not just CBT). 86.187.175.25 (talk) 22:13, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
 * It looks like the speed limit on Frank Road and Stanwey Road is 30 mph. But there has been an introduction of 20 mph zones, on some streets, on a temporary basis. You can check on Google StreetView, although the images there are from June 2021. If the police have calculated what speed the boys were doing, it's not clear that this is yet in the public domain. 205.239.40.3 (talk) 08:21, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

Trigger for riot
According to BBC interviews with the boys' friends and family, Snowden Road was cordoned off after the accident and they were kept behind a barrier for some hours. They had pleaded with the police to be told if the boys were alive or dead, but were not informed. It was only then that a video clip, showing the boys being followed by a police van, started to circulate on social media. It was this, in the emotionally charged atmosphere, that was the initial trigger for the riot. The article currently says just Police have said that the link between the crash and subsequent disorder was "unclear". Could this be improved/ expanded in some way? 205.239.40.3 (talk) 09:54, 31 May 2023 (UTC)
 * "We've all seen the CCTV," he said. "For the police to claim they were not chasing the boys is just not true. After the crash the police just wouldn’t allow the family close to their boys. They just kept pushing people back as they lay there dying. That’s why tensions were high. That’s why things turned nasty. The police were heavy-handed and disrespectful. They were cruel to the family of those boys, and that made people angry." 205.239.40.3 (talk) 14:48, 1 June 2023 (UTC)