Talk:2023 Union Square riot/GA1

GA Review
The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.''

Reviewer: Spintendo (talk · contribs) 23:47, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

Hello! I hope you're doing well. I'm Spintendo, and I'll be conducting this review. The Discussion section below is where we'll have most of our interactions. (I'm using the template to preserve the integrity of the review and to minimize disruption to the transcluded table of contents which appears on the article's talk page.) I've divided the discussion section into subsections based on the headers from the article. Please feel free to place "done" or "fixed" -type comments, objections, or counter-proposals in each section for the issues I'll be bringing up there. Without further ado, let's begin! Spintendo 23:47, 10 December 2023 (UTC)


 * The lead section contains references. While these are not banned, the ideal follows MOS:CITELEAD in that claims made in the lead section ought to be cited elsewhere in the article, as the lead section summarizes information found later in the main body.
 * ✅ Davest3r08 > : )  (talk)  17:45, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Spintendo 04:29, 22 December 2023 (UTC)


 * His collective of creators This should be described as "his business partners" because (a) it is a collective that he is a part of, and not his own collective (i.e., describing it as "his collective") and (b) the term "collective of creators" does not specify that these were content creators (i.e., what did he create?) and (c) the phrase sounds promotional by using industry jargon rather than long established phrases (e.g., just calling them "business partners"). Spintendo  23:47, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
 * ✅ Davest3r08 > : )  (talk)  00:59, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Spintendo 04:29, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

✅ Davest3r08 > : )  (talk)  17:42, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
 * This section would benefit from a to both Kai Cenat and Union Square.
 * Spintendo 04:29, 22 December 2023 (UTC)


 * The background section should then contain a modicum of information on the location where the riot occurred. Union Square takes its name from the intersection of Broadway, originally a colonial and Indian path drifting across New York from the lower right to upper left, and the city's 19th-century street grid. Specifically, how Union Square is at the intersection of subway lines 4, 5, 6, L, N, Q, R, and W, an intersection which greatly facilitated the transportation of large amounts of people to the square.
 * ✅ Davest3r08 > : )  (talk)  17:42, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Spintendo 04:29, 22 December 2023 (UTC)


 * This should be followed by more information on Cenat's background--not just the basics--but specifically those elements from his background which set the stage for the riot. The New York Times has good information on this:
 * ✅ Davest3r08 > : )  (talk)  17:42, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Spintendo 04:29, 22 December 2023 (UTC)


 * It should then cover how this event was not his first indulgence in giveaways. In July of that year, he surprised a Massachusetts woman he used to visit in the summers with $20,000, saying she had been a second mother to him, and she deserved it. (He has iffy luck with giveaways; the woman, Cathy Parker, was reluctant to accept the money.) Spintendo  23:47, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
 * ✅ Davest3r08 > : )  (talk)  17:42, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Spintendo 04:29, 22 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Spintendo, is this summary ok?"Union Square, the location of the riot, was named after the intersection of Broadway and the city's 19th-century street grid. It is located at the intersections of the 4, 5, 6, L, N, Q, R, and W subway lines, which provided the ease of the transportion of large amounts of people to the square. Cenat attended Frederick Douglass Academy and the State University of New York at Morrisville. Around the time of him attending university, he traveled to Atlanta, Georgia to work with a group of Internet personalities called Any Means Possible (AMP). This is not Cenat's first giveaway, as he surprised a Massachusetts woman he used to visit with $20,000, saying she was a second mother to him, and that she deserved it. The woman, Cathy Parker, was unwilling to accept the money."— Davest3r08 > : )  (talk)  02:10, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
 * This is good information but let's hold off on adding it. The information about the subway and the square needs some slight paraphrasing (I can take care of that) and a source (I got that too) then we can add it. Spintendo  08:08, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Spintendo, I can't find any reliable sources about the ease of the transportation of a large amount of people to the square. — Davest3r08 > : )  (talk)  15:50, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
 * "In a live stream on August 2, he claimed that he would give away gift cards, headphones, gaming chairs, computers, webcams, keyboards, and microphones to attendees who could correctly answer questions about YouTube and live streaming." Would it be suitable to reword "YouTube and live streaming" to "Internet culture" as YouTube and livestreaming usually fall under that umbrella? — Davest3r08 > : )  (talk)  15:55, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

The source for the ease of transport is here. There is also Cenat himself: "Mr. Cenat, who is from the Bronx, told his Twitch followers on Wednesday that he would be in Union Square on Friday. He asked how many fans would show up. A flurry of answers came in: 1,000, 5,000, 10,000. A friend sitting next to him said so many would come that Mr. Cenat would need security and barricades. “All trains go here so there’s no excuse,” Mr. Cenat told those watching." Spintendo 20:47, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Spintendo 04:42, 22 December 2023 (UTC)


 * The following year, he gained popularity after a series of livestreams featuring artists such as Drake, 21 Savage, Toosii and Lil Baby. This should be reworded to "The following year he gained popularity after producing a series of livestreams with Drake, 21 Savage, Toosii and Lil Baby".
 * ✅ Davest3r08 > : )  (talk)  17:42, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Spintendo 04:42, 22 December 2023 (UTC)


 * In February 2023, during a subathon—an event in which a livestreamer continuously streams in an attempt to gain paid subscribers, Cenat joined United Talent Agency. It's unclear, did Cenat join the talent agency during the livestream? if so, it should be reworded to state that clearly, such as "in February 2023, Cenat filmed his joining of the United Talent Agency during a livestreamed subathon." We can also delete the definition of subathon, since we'll have the Wiktionary page Wikilinked as shown in my example.
 * ✅ Davest3r08 > : )  (talk)  17:42, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Spintendo 04:42, 22 December 2023 (UTC)


 * I also removed the strikeout font that was added above. We don't need to use that here. That's mostly used in WP:REDACT, when an editor wants to alter their own previously entered text after another editor has replied following their post. Spintendo  08:36, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
 * In the days preceding the gathering, Cenat announced that he would give away PlayStation 5 consoles at 4 p.m. in Union Square along 14th Street,[4] joined by Fanum, Duke Dennis and Agent00, three Twitch streamers. should be "In the days preceding the gathering, Cenat announced that he would give away PlayStation 5 consoles at 4 p.m. in Union Square along 14th Street, where he would be joined by Fanum, Duke Dennis and Agent00, three Twitch streamers.
 * ✅ Davest3r08 > : )  (talk)  17:45, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Spintendo 04:42, 22 December 2023 (UTC)


 * In a live stream on August 2, he claimed that he would give away gift cards... This should state "In a livestream on August 2, Cenat claimed...."
 * ✅ Davest3r08 > : )  (talk)  17:42, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Spintendo 04:42, 22 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Cenat did not have a permit for the gathering. On the day of the giveaway, he posted on Twitter that he would be live streaming the event at 3:30 p.m. should be "Despite not having secured a permit for a gathering at Union Square, Cenat posted on Twitter that he would be live streaming the event at 3:30 p.m."
 * ✅ Davest3r08 > : )  (talk)  13:35, 12 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Spintendo 04:42, 22 December 2023 (UTC)


 * By 1:30 p.m. the area was filled with fans. The New York City Police Department (NYPD) became aware of the gathering at the same time, as dozens of people began converging. By 3 p.m., a large crowd had gathered in Union Square The timeline is unclear here. It says that the area was filled with fans at 1:30, but then again at 3pm it states a large croud had gathered. But didn't the crowd get there at 1:30, when it was "filled with fans?" I would think an area "filled with fans" could be considered "a crowd", although I understand that at 1:30 it was only fans while by 3:30 it was more of a mixture of fans and not fans (see next entry)
 * partially drawn to the event by further word of the giveaway outside Cenat's fans. "many of whom were drawn to the event by word of mouth from sources outside of Cenat's fans" or something to that effect.
 * ✅ Davest3r08 > : )  (talk)  17:42, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Spintendo 04:42, 22 December 2023 (UTC)


 * By 3:30 p.m., the NYPD had mobilized dozens of officers to the area and established a perimeter; the group took down barriers and conflict broke out between police and members of the crowd. which group took down barriers?
 * ✅ Davest3r08 > : )  (talk)  17:42, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Spintendo 04:42, 22 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Members of the crowd climbed up a gazebo, street signs, vehicles including a bus, and a George Washington statue I don't think it's possible to "climb up" a bus or vehicle. Street signs and statues you can climb up, but vehicles including buses are climbed upon.
 * ✅ Davest3r08 > : )  (talk)  17:42, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Spintendo 04:42, 22 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Social media posts of the riot surfaced around the same time. what time would that be?
 * ✅ Davest3r08 > : )  (talk)  17:42, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Spintendo 04:42, 22 December 2023 (UTC)


 * According to the NYPD, individuals walked around with shovels and axes from a nearby construction site and lit off fireworks " According to the NYPD, individuals walked around with shovels and axes taken from a nearby construction site, while others lit fireworks."
 * ✅ Davest3r08 > : )  (talk)  17:42, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Spintendo 04:42, 22 December 2023 (UTC)


 * The NYPD called on an estimated one thousand officers to respond as part of a level four mobilization at what time did this occur?
 * ✅ Davest3r08 > : )  (talk)  17:42, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Spintendo 04:42, 22 December 2023 (UTC)


 * At least two thousand people came to the event, though police estimate that three to five thousand people were present. who's estimate is the two thousand number?
 * ✅ Davest3r08 > : )  (talk)  17:42, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I guess I'll answer my own question here: It was the NYPD, and their initial estimate was 3-5K ppl  Spintendo  04:42, 22 December 2023 (UTC)


 * The NYPD does not use tear gas. But the source given for this claim confirms that they do use pepper spray. It's unlikely that Cenat, if he made this claim, really knows what the difference between tear gas and pepper spray is. He may have seen one used while assuming it was the other. In any event, the claim that NYPD does not use tear gas should be accompanied with the statement that they do use pepper spray. Spintendo  20:53, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
 * ✅— Davest3r08 > : )  (talk)  13:30, 12 December 2023 (UTC)
 * ✅ Davest3r08 > : )  (talk)  17:42, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Spintendo 17:19, 22 December 2023 (UTC)


 * The archive link for the following reference did not take:
 * Since there was no "giveaway", I'm wondering if using that term is the best for this section's title. What are your thoughts on this? Spintendo  04:43, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Spintendo, seems reasonable. No one got anything valuable at the end, apart from some cuts, bruises, and arrests.
 * ✅— Davest3r08 > : )  (talk)  13:35, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Spintendo 17:19, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Spintendo 17:19, 22 December 2023 (UTC)


 * As for the TechCrunch archives, I think they might be broken. Older archives do not work. — Davest3r08 > : )  (talk)  01:41, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Cenat was either taken into police custody or let go on his accord and charged with inciting a riot and unlawful assembly. I'm not sure this timeline works, but if it's what media has reported, then were stuck with it. It should at least state he was released "on his own accord after being charged with..." if the charges came that day, if they were the next day it should say"Cenat was initially allowed to leave the area on his own accord but was charged ____" with it stating whenever the time and day he was charged. Spintendo  06:39, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Spintendo, ✅— Davest3r08 > : )  (talk)  14:12, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Spintendo 17:19, 22 December 2023 (UTC)


 * The information in this section mostly concerns events referring to the same day, rather than afterwards, so I'm not sure this heading works. Thoughts?
 * At approximately 5:00 p.m., Cenat was taken into police custody and charged with inciting a riot and unlawful assembly This contradicts NYTimes reporting, which stated Kai left the scene of his own volition (or was at least given a friendly escort): "Rather than arrest Mr. Cenat immediately, for example, the police could have used him to address the crowd, he said. “The minute that the N.Y.P.D. moved Kai Cenat from the scene, they lost their chance to leverage him,” Mr. Raymond said." Spintendo  04:43, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Spintendo, maybe I could add a note that says that how Cenat was arrested is disputed? — Davest3r08 > : )  (talk)  14:14, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
 * ✅— Davest3r08 > : )  (talk)  01:29, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't say it was disputed, it's more of an "unknown".
 * ✅ Davest3r08 > : )  (talk)  17:42, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Spintendo 17:19, 22 December 2023 (UTC)


 * To gain a better grasp of events, here is my own personal timeline constructed by combining elements from the Washington Post, WABC-7-NY, NYTimes, and CNN sources. It provides a decent timeline/narrative for Cenat's entrance and departure, as well as some of the other events. Let's not place it in the article though — I have it here just for our use, as we comb through the GA:


 * At a press conference, Maddrey stated, "When I go back later on this evening, I will have an after-action determine [sic] exactly what our steps were. We can't allow this to happen again in the future". If these are the mayor's actual words, then we need a template.
 * ✅ Davest3r08 > : )  (talk)  23:30, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Spintendo 17:19, 22 December 2023 (UTC)


 * The only responses here are the mayor and AMP. There could be more from the Civilian Complaint Review Board (which reviews accusations of police brutality, and who issued a statement about the riot) as well as more specific examples of the most severe accusations which were made against the police and which were reported on in the NYTimes. Spintendo  04:43, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Spintendo, ✅— Davest3r08 > : )  (talk)  13:50, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Spintendo 17:19, 22 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Titling this as "Response" makes it seem like it should be the police response that day. Lets change the "subsequent riot" heading to just read as Union Square riot and let's move everything in this section to the Aftermath section. Spintendo  06:39, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Spintendo, ✅— Davest3r08 > : )  (talk)  14:12, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Spintendo 17:19, 22 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Cenat's response, it should be noted, came August 10, roughly 6 days afterwards.
 * It should also be noted that exactly 3 weeks after the riot, on August 25, the Austin-based talent management company "Night" announced the acquisition of LFM Management, the New York-based content creator managing firm. That move placed Night as the talent management for Kai Cenat and the other members of AMP. Spintendo  05:08, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Spintendo, where is the source mentioning the LFM Management acquisition? All the sources cited here were published before August 25th. — Davest3r08 > : )  (talk)  13:21, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
 * You're absolutely right, I forgot about that one. My apologies. here it is:
 * Spintendo 22:47, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Spintendo, thanks. — Davest3r08 > : )  (talk)  00:48, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Also, is Night based in Austin, Texas? — Davest3r08 > : )  (talk)  00:55, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Nevermind, they are.<span id="Davest3r08:1702947381783:TalkFTTCLN2023_Union_Square_riot/GA1" class="FTTCmt"> — Davest3r08 > : )  (talk)  00:56, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Anyways, ✅<span id="Davest3r08:1702947584747:TalkFTTCLN2023_Union_Square_riot/GA1" class="FTTCmt">— Davest3r08 > : )  (talk)  00:59, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Spintendo 17:19, 22 December 2023 (UTC)


 * The following two reference titles are worded with a slight difference, but these are actually the exact same article. The two authors's last names have been swapped for each other — Zoe Sottile and Mark Morales, listed in the first reference, have by the second reference become Mark Sottile and Zoe Morales. Needless to say, Mark and Zoe should be resorted back into their correct surnames and combined into a single entry.
 * Spintendo 05:18, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Spintendo, ✅<span id="Davest3r08:1703245560299:TalkFTTCLN2023_Union_Square_riot/GA1" class="FTTCmt">— Davest3r08 > : )  (talk)  11:46, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Spintendo 17:19, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Spintendo 17:19, 22 December 2023 (UTC)


 * I like what I see in the analysis section. In a way, this is the most important section, because it is here that any "meaning" is brought to the riot as far as society is concerned. Obviously because it's so recent, there is not much scholarly research into this event, but rest assured, there should be more trickling in as time passes, because this was an important event from a sociological viewpoint. I'll do a bit more searching on some other databases (EBSCOHost, etc.) and see what I can find. Then I'll go back through our discussion and reply to any comments/suggestions of yours that I may have missed so far, and to check that suggestions were addressed, then we can wrap this up!   Spintendo  23:49, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Nothing additional found after a broad search, but this section will likely grow in the future. Spintendo  17:19, 22 December 2023 (UTC)


 * In February 2023, the United Talent Agency announced that they would represent Cenat during a subathon. At the end of the livestream, he had amassed 300,000 Twitch subscribers, a record for the platform. It's not clear whose subathon this was, since it merely mentions UTA announcing they would represent Cenat during "a subathon". This was his subathon correct? I it was his, how did they come to make the mention? Spintendo  17:30, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Spintendo, oh yeah, it was his subathon. I've gone ahead and clarified that in the article. ✅<span id="Davest3r08:1703278592111:TalkFTTCLN2023_Union_Square_riot/GA1" class="FTTCmt">— Davest3r08 > : )  (talk)  20:56, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Spintendo 02:53, 23 December 2023 (UTC)


 * The WaPo article doesn't clarify on how did they come to make the mention, though.<span id="Davest3r08:1703279856870:TalkFTTCLN2023_Union_Square_riot/GA1" class="FTTCmt"> — Davest3r08 > : )  (talk)  21:17, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Kai Cenat is an American livestreamer and YouTuber. He attended Frederick Douglass Academy and the State University of New York at Morrisville. Around the time of him attending university, If the university is already mentioned, it doesnt need to be mentioned a second time. And while it says "at this time", the time period for when he went to this university is not stated.  Spintendo  17:30, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Spintendo, so something along the lines of: "At this time, Cenat traveled to Atlanta, Georgia to work with a group of Internet personalities called Any Means Possible (AMP), which he joined in 2020." right?<span id="Davest3r08:1703279670630:TalkFTTCLN2023_Union_Square_riot/GA1" class="FTTCmt"> — Davest3r08 > : )  (talk)  21:14, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I've added it anyways, so ✅<span id="Davest3r08:1703289445674:TalkFTTCLN2023_Union_Square_riot/GA1" class="FTTCmt">— Davest3r08 > : )  (talk)  23:57, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Spintendo 02:53, 23 December 2023 (UTC)


 * In the days preceding the gathering, Cenat announced that he would give away PlayStation 5 consoles at 4 p.m. in Union Square along 14th Street, where he would be joined by Fanum, Duke Dennis and Agent00 We need Wikilinks for these three individuals, if they exist as articles. Spintendo  17:38, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Spintendo, I only added a wikilink to Fanum's article because it was the only one I could find. <span id="Davest3r08:1703279064897:TalkFTTCLN2023_Union_Square_riot/GA1" class="FTTCmt">— Davest3r08 > : )  (talk)  21:04, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I added Duke Dennis as a redlink, as his name is already redlinked in the Duke disambiguation page, it may not be long before he gets his own article.
 * I've hidden the final WSJ article claim regading Cenat's ability to "mend relations with the police". As that article is pay-walled, I cannot verify the claim. That would need to occur in order to be able to see if it pertains to the aftermath section. The author involved may have been referring to "having had the opportunity to mend relations at the time or they may mean he possesses an everlasting opportunity to mend relations. I can't say for sure. Spintendo  03:27, 23 December 2023 (UTC)