Talk:2024 Democratic Party presidential primaries/Archive 2

Why is Biden the only candidate in so many infoboxes?
California, Utah, Texas, Arkansas, South Carolina, Iowa, Vermont currently only have Biden in their infobox and should be changed. The second place candidate should generally always be included in an article's infobox per this 2017 discussion and this 2020 discussion regardless of their vote % unless consensus on their individual talk page overrules this. This also is in line with past primaries in 2004 (ex. Louisiana), 2008 (ex. Northern Mariana Islands), 2012 (ex. New Hampshire), and 2020 (ex. Missouri). Yeoutie (talk) 21:13, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Agreed that the other candidate(s), should be included. Otherwise, we won't know what became of the delegates or popular votes in each state, that Biden didn't get. GoodDay (talk) 21:19, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Pretty absurd that the main infobox doesn't even have Dean Phillips either. Despite him getting quite a lot of votes, I get that he doesn't have a delegate, but that doesn't mean a Samoa caucus winner is more important than someone that got 2nd place in just about nearly every other primary that didn't have an uncommitted option. Borifjiufchu (talk) 01:21, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Source for Biden delegate count?
Hi,

Whats the source for the 1,707 Biden delegates in the infobox?

I can see that TGP has Biden at 1,464 pledged delegates, while the AP lists 888.

Thanks. David O. Johnson (talk) 07:56, 6 March 2024 (UTC)


 * IMO, it should be reverted to what AP says for the moment. You can't just add delegates blindly before races are called or delegates are formally awarded. Auerstaedt (talk) 08:15, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
 * After some investigation, it should just be the pledged delegate totals without Delaware/Florida at this point (despite what's been shown on this page at this point – other editors too trigger-happy to include them) as those haven't been allocated as of this point, even if they're expected to ultimately be awarded to Biden in the end. TGP is the most up-to-date source and other election data providers including the Associated Press, Decision Desk HQ, and Edison Research tend to be conservative and slower in confirming delegate totals. 67.170.42.135 (talk) 22:21, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
 * TGP doesn’t call delegates, and their numbers are just estimates of where they stand given current vote totals. We should use AP. There was a consensus to include Delaware and Florida.   ~Politicdude (About me, talk, contribs) 18:56, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Map updates
Who ever has the know how. We need a number of states colored blue for Biden. GoodDay (talk) 05:09, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

Biden won the Hawaii caucuses. State needs to be colored blue. GoodDay (talk) 01:03, 8 March 2024 (UTC)


 * Done for the delegate map. Also, I updated the marker for American Samoa to reflect a tie. I'm still working on the islands themselves... they are so tiny that it's hard to make them look striped so I just left them gray for now. (I was trying to copy the stripes similarly to the Sanders-Buttigieg tie in New Hampshire in 2020).Michelangelo1992 (talk) 03:12, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
 * UPDATE: I have updated the American Samoa islands to reflect a delegate tie, but in my opinion it looks pretty hideous. I think the best solution is to change Palmer's color to something with high contrast against Biden's blue. Perhaps yellow? I know that we generally choose a color based on their campaign, but it's just too difficult to distinguish from Biden in such a small area, in my opinion. Michelangelo1992 (talk) 03:31, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Both Hawaii & American Samoa looks great. GoodDay (talk) 19:40, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Florida & Delaware
Florida & Delaware should be colored either black or blue. GoodDay (talk) 07:19, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
 * I updated them to both be blue on the "pledged delegates" map. They are black on the "popular vote" map. Michelangelo1992 (talk) 22:52, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
 * I think they should be colored grey in the popular vote map like New Hampshire since they kinda have the same notion because no votes will be cast in Delaware and Florida and no delegates were awarded in New Hampshire and they currently have the same color as Uncommitted/None of These Candidates/No Preference which don't have the same meaning as a primary being canceled Punker85 (talk) 23:44, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
 * If gray on the popular vote map means “primary canceled” and gray on the pledged delegates map means “no pledged delegates, what would you suggest regarding the map legend in the infobox? It doesn’t seem right to me to have one color represent two different things on different maps, but I am open to suggestions. Michelangelo1992 (talk) 12:27, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
 * I thought something like No pledged delegates awarded/Primary canceled would be the text beside the gray square
 * But, after reflection, I think my proposition for Delaware and Florida in the popular vote map to be the same color as New Hampshire in the delegates map would be a bit too confusing. While I still think Delaware and Florida should a gray, I think they should be a different shade of gray than New Hampshire one Punker85 (talk) 02:04, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Thing is. The New Hampshire primary took place, even though delegates (for the moment) won't be rewarded to anyone. Where's the Florida & Delaware primaries won't be taking place at all, as there's only one candidate (Biden) & he'll be getting their delegates. GoodDay (talk) 20:51, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
 * I'm fine with them being colored blue as long as they're described as "expected" to go to Biden, but given that he will receive all delegates from Mississippi, Alaska, and Indiana, those should likely also be colored blue as well. Noting that no sources tracking delegate totals are actually counting them towards his total yet as he has yet to be officially allocated them, however, so they shouldn't be reflected in the infobox or elsewhere as WP:OR (synthesis of info not reflected in any source tracking delegates). 67.170.42.135 (talk) 19:39, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
 * That’s not true. There are write-in votes in Indiana, so he’s not guaranteed to receive all delegates, and there doesn’t appear to be a consensus to include Mississippi, where Biden is unopposed but the election is still happening, unlike Delaware and Florida where the election is cancelled. Alaska is newer, but falls under the same category as Mississippi. And per WP:CALC, routine calculations do not count as original research, “provided there is consensus among editors that the results of the calculations are correct, and a meaningful reflection of the sources.” The cancellation of Florida and Delaware is backed up by reliable sources, and several different discussions have at least come close to consensus. Those calculations also take place to determine our popular vote totals, and these have not been seriously contested as far as I can tell.
 * “Expected to go to Biden” is fine, but all delegates are “expected” because they haven’t been chosen yet, only projected.   ~Politicdude (About me, talk, contribs) 20:48, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I went back and reviewed the talk page/archive discussions here to get up to speed and I'm not so sure that there is a clear consensus – by my count, I'm noting five users in favor, four against, one with no clear stance, and of those, only some have commented specifically about the delegate totals, even if they're implicit. The main issue here is that the claims regarding delegates already being allocated aren't correct. Via the Miami Herald: Florida is expected to award 250 delegates to the winner of the Democratic primary on March 19.
 * You're right about Delaware, however – per 15 Del. C. § 3183 (c): (c) In the event that only one candidate files for a party’s nomination by the filing deadline set forth in subsection (a) of this section and no additional candidates are added to the ballot pursuant to subsection (b) of this section, that candidate shall be considered as having received 100% of the vote for that party’s presidential primary election automatically upon the expiration of the filing deadline and thus declared the winner of that election. In the event no candidate files for the party’s nomination, no election shall be held for that party’s nomination.
 * Given that, I suggest that Delaware should be included in the delegate total, but not Florida until March 19. 67.170.42.135 (talk) 21:25, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Actually, ignore that note above – the Delaware (and Florida) DSP still say that the state's delegates are only to be allocated in April, and as such I re-added the DSP as a reference for that footnote and removed it from the delegate total.
 * Again, the reason I'm concerned here is not because I substantially disagree that Biden is going to receive the delegates from those two states, but that it would mean that he achieves a majority of delegates on the delegate count in the infobox on March 12 rather than March 19, which is when media coverage will actually describe him explicitly as the presumptive nominee. 67.170.42.135 (talk) 22:03, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
 * It appears like AP has called Florida and Delaware for Biden, so that's not a concern anymore. I've updated the totals.  ~Politicdude (About me, talk, contribs) 15:14, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Biden Democratic presumptive presidential nominee
I see that Biden has been described as the 2024 Democratic presumptive presidential nominee at the 2024 Democratic National Convention & 2024 United States presidential election pages. Noting that he hasn't (yet) won a majority of the delegates & that Williamson has re-entered the Democratic race. What should we do for this page's infobox? GoodDay (talk) 21:00, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
 * It's too early to describe him as presumptive nominee per AP and other sources as March 19 is the earliest day that Biden can secure a majority of pledged delegates. Even if Florida and Delaware's pledged delegates (which are expected to be ultimately awarded to Biden, but haven't at this point) are added to the total, that wouldn't be the case before March 12. 67.170.42.135 (talk) 22:21, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Too early: is challenged on the ballot in future delegate allocating events and has not secured enough delegates to win a first-ballot nomination. SecretName101 (talk) 01:24, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I agree Biden isn't yet the presumptive nominee. Seems like it's a clear violation of WP:CRYSTAL. David O. Johnson (talk) 01:50, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I think we should make him presumptive nominee, it's not like Dean Phillips is going to get a magic boost in the polls and Trump is already listed as presumptive nominee on the Republican primary page, I don't think Dean Phillips is anymore of a major candidate than John Anthony Castro or Sam Sloan in practice Locked641 (talk) 22:57, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

Jason Palmer on infobox
It's being reported that a candidate named Jason Palmer has won the American Samoa primary, based on precedent this means he should be included on the infobox correct? Posting this on the talk page in case there's anyone who thinks it needs to be discussed. TheFellaVB (talk) 02:44, 6 March 2024 (UTC)


 * Yes, no question about it. He won delegates so he's in the infobox. Esolo5002 (talk) 02:46, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I saw someone decided to undo the edit someone made because he isn't second place but the 1996 Democratic Party presidential primaries sets a precedent for including candidates if they win a contest. TheFellaVB (talk) 02:50, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Considering John Wolfe Jr. was included in the 2012 Democratic Party presidential primaries while winning just 1.3% of the PV, yes. River10000 (talk) 02:49, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I oppose including him because it’s clearly not a major part of the election, but we should include him for now while we take the time to have a full discussion.  ~Politicdude (About me, talk, contribs) 03:05, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
 * While you are correct that it isn't a major part of the election, we have precedent of including candidates who's only notable feat is winning a single contest. Such as the case of Roland Riemers in North Dakota in 1996, or Bob Kerrey in 1992. Finally this is more notable than Riemers win in North Dakota as this stands as the first time an incumbent President has lost a nominating contest since Jimmy Carter in 1980. TheFellaVB (talk) 03:09, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I am aware of that consensus and that is why we should keep him in at the moment.  ~Politicdude (About me, talk, contribs) 03:11, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Got it! Just putting the point out there so people who aren't already aware can be informed. TheFellaVB (talk) 03:11, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I understand your point, but due to him winning a contest, he should be in the infobox because his color will be displayed there as well. Similar to how Strom Thurmond and Roland Riemers were there despite winning a miniscule vote amount. NonHydranary (talk) 03:11, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
 * We should definitely keep him-there's clear precedent across the board that any candidate that wins a contest, regardless of their popular vote share, gets a spot on the wikibox... I mean-Clinton lost ND to Roland Reimers in 1996, who only got 651 votes total (which is significantly less than Palmer has), and he's on the infobox Cas2024 (talk) 03:09, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I completely agree, precedent is clear on this. It shouldn't be a discussion to remove him but instead a discussion on if that precedent needs to be changed. TheFellaVB (talk) 03:10, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I disagree with the idea that the precedent needs to be changed, as if someone wins a contest, their color will be displayed on the map, and it wouldn't look right if a color was displayed on the map without the person it represents also being there. NonHydranary (talk) 03:12, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I'm not saying the precedent should be changed. I'm stating that if we were to exclude Palmer it would need to come as a result of altering the precedent. I personally believe the precedent makes total sense and Palmer and Reimers should be included. TheFellaVB (talk) 03:18, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I believe he should still be included despite his subatomic vote total, as he managed to win a contest. NonHydranary (talk) 03:13, 6 March 2024 (UTC)


 * At the risk of going against the tide here, I think the precedent should be changed with this case. It seems rather silly to put Palmer in the infobox and leave out Phillips and Williamson, two other Biden challengers who have received far more RS coverage and far more votes. I understand Palmer won a contest while Phillips and Williamson did not, but the American Samoa caucus that Palmer won by a vote of 51–40 could hardly be compared to a state primary where the number of votes needed to win is 3 or 4 orders of magnitude larger (no offense to American Samoa). The infobox is what people in the far future will see as containing the most important candidacies in this election; to put Palmer there without Phillips or Williamson seems wrong.
 * Thus, I suggest either leaving out Palmer, or including all three. Davey2116 (talk) 04:59, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I think though that Palmer needs to be included for the sake of the average viewer. If people look at the map of contests and sees that Palmer won one and he isn't in the infobox than that creates unnecessary confusion. Having Palmer there allows for people to easily see who he is in the future without having to skim through the article in order to find him. TheFellaVB (talk) 05:53, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
 * We could wikilink him in the legend, would that work? So if people were curious about that one contest, they'd see his name there and click through. To be honest, I'm less concerned with whether he is in the infobox at all and more with us giving the misleading impression that he is the second-most significant candidate in this election. Davey2116 (talk) 06:23, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I agree with you on this point, but what does "second-most significant candidate" mean if not delegate count? We can't really use popular vote because of the caucus system. And any change would really have to be across the board, and not just this election.  GreatCaesarsGhost   17:20, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Who says he isn't the second most significant candidate though? Sure right now he's practically a nobody but in a few years Phillip's and Williamson's bids will be far more insignificant (considering either has struggled to even crack 5% in a contest) than Palmer's outright victory over an incumbent President which has not happened since 1980. TheFellaVB (talk) 19:48, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Major leap in assumption. Phillips has far more news coverage, money, donations, exposure, and more votes overall in the primary, and he definitely was a challenger. He got more votes than John Wolfe Jr. and I think it would help for reader's and informational sake to have him on there for contextual purposes. Borifjiufchu (talk) 09:16, 10 March 2024 (UTC)


 * The national popular vote is irrelevant in the presidential primaries and election. The delegates/electors select the winner. Palmer won a contest and delegates. Prior consensus has put candidates with below 5% into the infobox as they won a contest. Jon698 (talk) 05:07, 6 March 2024 (UTC)


 * Obviously Palmer should be in the infobox, not only because of precedent but because he's the first candidate to beat an incumbent President in a nominating contest since 1980. However, I don't think this should be used an excuse to add in Phillips, Williamson, or even Uygur in the event that they don't win delegates or break 5% in the PV. We don't want to clutter the infobox, although if anyone disagrees please speak. RickStrate2029 (talk) 06:05, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Since the Samoa election was a caucus doesn't that mean Biden hasn't lost a primary? Or shouldn't it say election or something instead of primary. Cantomic66 (talk) 06:29, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
 * There has been discussion and consensus on this in the past; we use "primaries" collectively to refer to both in the interest of clarity.  GreatCaesarsGhost   17:20, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I suppose the technical term would be "nominating contests", but colloquially the term primary dominates because of how rare caucuses are now. So "primary" it is. RickStrate2029 (talk) 05:14, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

What counts are the delegates. Put all candidates in the infobox, who've won delegates. GoodDay (talk) 05:10, 6 March 2024 (UTC)


 * Strongly disagree to this mindset, in every single democratic primary since 2000 and barring 2016 we've omitted candidates (Kucinich, Edwards, Terry, Rogers, Judd, Gabbard, & Klobuchar) because they won only a few and did not win any contests. Where that diverges from Palmer is the fact that he won a contest. This isn't something we're going to have to worry about though since it doesn't seem like Phillips will be winning any delegates anytime soon but i'd be happy to continue the conversation should he. TheFellaVB (talk) 19:56, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

Everything that has was discussed in this section is moot. See below. Zaathras (talk) 03:35, 7 March 2024 (UTC)


 * Palmer still won delegates, so he stays in the infobox. David O. Johnson (talk) 03:40, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
 * The criteria is winning a contest, not winning delegates (see TheFellaVB’s post above). But Palmer still won American Samoa popular vote wise. I’m not super familiar with the consensus, so that might mean he stays in the info box or it might not.  ~Politicdude (About me, talk, contribs) 03:43, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Strongly disagree with including Philips and Williamson. However, agree with including Palmer. Rationale: The "2024 Democratic primaries" are not actually a single entity. This page represents a collection of 50ish independent nominating contests. Therefore, winning any of these contests (e.g. Palmer winning American Samoa) is notable, even if said contest awards only a few delegates. Michelangelo1992 (talk) 03:16, 8 March 2024 (UTC)


 * e.g. Palmer winning American Samoa is not a truthful statement. This is starting to get out of hand. Zaathras (talk) 03:22, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
 * We have a first place by popular vote and first place by delegate count and both of those are reflective of the result of the primary. In the 2020 primary we counted Bernie Sanders as the popular vote winner of Iowa and New Hampshire which was included of his total of contests won. TheFellaVB (talk) 07:52, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
 * It's absolutely true that Palmer won. See AP, ABC, The Hill, etc. Reliable sources are declaring Palmer the winner. Yes, they both won three delegates. However, Palmer won the popular vote. So we go by what the sources say - and the sources are calling Palmer the winner. Michelangelo1992 (talk) 03:50, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Addendum to my previous comment. It's true that Palmer won the popular vote as indicated by RS. It's also true that both won three delegates. Per discussion at the bottom of this page, I think Palmer should stay in the infobox, and would support updating the infobox to include AS as a "Biden win" as well given the tie in delegates as long as the footnote is clear.

But why is Nikki Haley the only candidate (aside from Trump) in the GOP infobox..? Prcc27 (talk) 16:38, 8 March 2024 (UTC)


 * We’ve pretty regularly removed candidates from the infobox who won just a few delegates and no contests, but not those who won a contest.   ~Politicdude (About me, talk, contribs) 16:39, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Since when has this been a decided precedent though? From what I've gathered it has been more inertia then actual policy. Suffice to say, I'd argue that so long as a candidate has been awarded a delegate (not just won), they should be included. Going by (5%) of the Primary Vote is terrible policy as that is only really effective with the Modern Primary System, with earlier Primaries often having different contests for the Candidates and the Delegates, and the vote totals for the latter are rather difficult to come across. I'd remove the "Winning a Contest" requirement as well, but again that is because I think we should be weighting placement based on the Delegates awarded to the candidates, not how many times they came in first. --Ariostos (talk) 00:43, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
 * This was discussed at this RFC in 2017 and at this RFC from 2020.Michelangelo1992 (talk) 16:48, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Noted, though again, I have to mention that these policies only truly work for the Modern Primary System. I'd be open to establishing a consensus that can be applied uniformly across Primaries for all periods, unless we are going to keep the rules for the earlier and latter periods separate.
 * Ariostos (talk) 02:30, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

American Samoa is a tie
The initial results out of American Samoa were incorrect, Biden and Palmer split the 6 delegates 3-3. The pearl-clutching is really no longer lede-worthy, and there may be other areas of the article that need updating. The Super Tuesday shocker that wasn’t: Biden pulls out a tie in American Samoa. Zaathras (talk) 03:32, 7 March 2024 (UTC)


 * That’s already in the article, and Palmer still won by popular vote, so he’s still a winner. It’s not completely moot, although it could impact the discussion.  ~Politicdude (About me, talk, contribs) 03:39, 7 March 2024 (UTC)


 * No, he did not win, and we're not going to lie in a Wikipedia article. Delegates are the determining tally in a caucus or primary, not the raw vote numbers. Zaathras (talk) 03:41, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
 * So far, we’ve included both. We can say he won the popular vote without lying.  ~Politicdude (About me, talk, contribs) 03:45, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Palmer won the popular vote. You obviously have a particular political desire, Wikipedia does not care. Esolo5002 (talk) 03:45, 7 March 2024 (UTC)


 * Hillary Clinton won the popular vote in 2016. Hint; she wasn't the president, because it ultimately does not matter.. Zaathras (talk) 03:21, 8 March 2024 (UTC)


 * I added a footnote to reflect this. It's still worth it to mention Palmer, but we should also make this clear.  ~Politicdude (About me, talk, contribs) 00:49, 8 March 2024 (UTC)


 * A footnote is fine, sure. Zaathras (talk) 03:21, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Check the 2020 democratic nomination page. Buttigieg has Iowa and New Hampshire to his totals even though he didn't win the popular vote in Iowa and tied in New Hampshire, as well as this Bernie also has those states in his total of contests won because of his popular vote victory and delegate tie in New Hampshire. It's that simple. TheFellaVB (talk) 20:30, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I agree with that logic and would support changing Biden's infobox total to 21 wins (for now) including the footnote that Palmer won the popular vote in AS but that they both won three delegates each. That seems to match the situation with Sanders/Buttigieg while still recognizing Palmer's popular vote victory.Michelangelo1992 (talk) 21:04, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I agree, give both Biden and Palmer the win for America Samoa like we did for Bernie and Buttigieg TheFellaVB (talk) 21:38, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Well, that has now been changed. I agree that whatever we do needs to be consistent between 2020 and 2024.Michelangelo1992 (talk) 01:18, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Confusing map
Time for a nitpick! The colour for "Primary canceled" in the "First place by popular vote" map shouldn't be black as that colour is already being used for "Uncommitted." The way it looks right now to a glancing eye makes it look like Uncommitted has won the most votes in Delaware and Florida, which is not the case, and that can be somewhat confusing as the movement to vote Uncommitted has been picking up some steam. I would suggest using something like the square seen below so that a canceled primary is made distinctive. {{legend|#b97a4d}} EditDude (talk) 02:33, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
 * It would be easier (for me, an inexperienced SVG editor) to simply change the color for uncommitted. How do we as editors feel about that option? Additionally, it looks like uncommitted may drop to <5% of the popular vote so it may end up getting removed from the infobox anyway if consensus remains >5%. Michelangelo1992 (talk) 20:39, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Honestly I feel like distinguishing the primary as cancelled on the map is unnecessary, and leaving the states with the standard "blank" light gray color is okay with me. However I know how that appears to a lot of users, so a good secondary option for me is finding a darker gray that isn't entirely black, maybe something like ? DukeOfDelTaco (talk) 06:02, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

Write-in blank ballots as 'Uncommitted'
A lot of sources say that write-in blank ballots are to send a message. This is opposed to blank ballots in general, of course, as those could be errors. But CalMatters says that 160,000+ voters voted blank. I think this, combined with other states, is too big to leave out. Personisinsterest (talk) 23:37, 19 March 2024 (UTC)


 * Did the math. With available data, which there is little, 167,470+ blank write-ins were cast. The media ascribes the same goals of uncommitted. It's widely seen as a part of the protest movement, and progressive organizations have endorsed it as such.
 * Only available data is Georgia, California, and Portland, Maine.(1)(2)(3)
 * The new total would be 628,554+, or 6.3%. Personisinsterest (talk) 00:01, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Write-ins should be counted in the "Uncommitted" category if they are in states where write-ins are not counted individually (barring write-in access). In states where write-ins are treated as a blanket category, the write-in category is effectively achieving the same purpose as the "Uncommitted" or "None of the Above" options, meaning they should be included. RickStrate2029 (talk) 22:15, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Normally undervotes and undervotes don’t count in the total number of votes cast as election results count the % of valid ballots cast. By this logic “uncommitted” would win practically every school board race. Crazysportsdude1 (talk) 23:49, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
 * This is different; this is purposely writing in 'blank'. Not blank votes, which could be errors, but someone purposely writing in blank. Personisinsterest (talk) 20:55, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I would agree but the CA article referenced was talking about undervotes Crazysportsdude1 (talk) 03:39, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Uncommitted is a ballot option capable of receiving delegates. "Blank" is not. The fact they are for the same reason is irrelevant - every anti-Biden vote is a protest vote at this point, but they are for different candidates and mechanisms and should be shown separately.  ~Politicdude (About me, talk, contribs) 23:19, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Candidate colors/gradients
similar to my GOP proposal on Talk:2024 Republican Party presidential primaries I'm proposing below the following color gradients be used for the candidates in the 2024 Democratic Presidential Primary, this will allow us to have a uniform way of creating county maps and distinguishing candidates. below is my proposal but I welcome all suggestions Matthew McMullin (talk)

Update: changed Kennedy color from orange to green

User:CaptMarsMan I do have to agree with you that Green fits better for kennedy than orange, I've updated the gradient to reflect that

Bumping this as to avoid it being sucked into the archives. Matthew McMullin (talk) 11:48, 27 may 2023 (UTC)

Striking out RFK. Jr. --Politicdude (talk) 02:17, 12 October 2023 (UTC) Politicdude (talk) 02:15, 12 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Are there any potential colors for Uygur and Phillips? Colin.1678 (talk) 01:56, 22 October 2023 (UTC)


 * The media coverage discussion on Uygur isn't settled yet, but as he's at three polls this is still a relevant question. Expoe34 wrote If consensus favors Uygur as a major candidate, I suggest we use as his candidate color, although this now seems to have been used for Phillips. I don't know which colour is appropriate, but in light of past derogatory comments online I think we should avoid brown. BucketOfSquirrels (talk) 15:12, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I suggest some shade of red. Longestview (talk) 22:04, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Red should do. In terms of symbolism he is a former Republican. He now identifies as a progressive or a democratic capitalist, which might not fit perfectly. But then the colour doesn't actually need to be perfectly symbolic. BucketOfSquirrels (talk) 21:58, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

Map update
I think Alaska & Wyoming need to be colored Biden blue. GoodDay (talk) 01:50, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

"Uncommitted" movement description
In the section describing why the Uncommitted movement developed, the only reason established is anti-Israel sentiment (I'll include the verbatim below). I'd love to hear what everyone else thinks, but I think there are additional reasons why the movement developed (most notably Democratic support for RFK Jr. despite him not being on the ballot) and that we should develop a larger section for the causes of that movement.

Section verbatim as is: "Additionally, in 2024, some Muslim Americans, Arab Americans, progressives, and socialists began advocating for a 'uncommitted' vote as protest vote against Biden due to his support of Israel during the Israel–Hamas war." RickStrate2029 (talk) 06:11, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Jason Palmer Picture
In simple English Wikipedia, they use this pictare for Palmer: do we use it here? 24.73.80.178 (talk) 00:57, 8 May 2024 (UTC)


 * @SarmilaDeb1 what if we cropped this photo to just include the headshot? 24.73.80.178 (talk) 21:23, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Jason Palmer dropped out
Jason Palmer has withdrawn from the primary and endorsed Biden. I would change it myself, but I lack the skill to do so. ThatOneGuyWithAFork (talk) 00:52, 19 April 2024 (UTC)


 * Palmer has not yet suspended his campaign, so he's still in race for now.
 * David O. Johnson (talk) 01:29, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
 * We should still mention that he endorsed Biden, at the very least. Prcc27 (talk) 02:20, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
 * He has now officially suspended his campaign, per his twitter 2603:8000:A642:5100:91A:9BDE:DF69:B8F3 (talk) 01:53, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the heads up. David O. Johnson (talk) 02:33, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Dean Phillips
Seems possible that Phillips might win some delegates in Ohio. If he does, or in the case that he or Williamson win any in the future, any thoughts on whether they should be included in the infobox? I'd probably lead against including them unless they win a contest, but I can be easily swayed. Esolo5002 (talk) 02:19, 20 March 2024 (UTC)


 * Refer to "2020 Republican Party presidential primaries" (Bill Weld) and "2012 Democratic Party presidential primaries" (John Wolfe Jr.) as examples of why Dean Phillips should be included in the infobox. He has won delegates in Ohio, and precedent dictates that candidates who win any delegates against the incumbent get included in the infobox (even if they don't break 5%). RickStrate2029 (talk) 22:14, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I should also note that the DNC is considering seating the NH delegates, which would give Phillips an additional 3-4 delegates. It hasn't been determined yet, but it is a factor to consider in deciding whether or not to add Phillips now in the infobox (i.e. we might need to later even barring Ohio). RickStrate2029 (talk) 22:17, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Second place candidates who don't get 5% of the vote are still included, which is why Weld and Wolfe are there. That's why Alf Landon is included in SC in 1936 despite winning 1% of the vote. That exemption only applies to candidates who are in second place. When someone else has 5%+ or won a contest, the exemption is no longer applied. NonHydranary (talk) 15:43, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
 * And where does this rule apply? Where does it say this? Or are you just wishcasting based on inconsistent policy and lack of clear precedent? Borifjiufchu (talk) 08:53, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
 * You have asked "where the rule applies", the answer to that question exists on every page involving the primary contests faced by an incumbent President. See 2020 Republican presidential primaries, 2012 Democratic presidential primaries, 2004 Republican presidential primaries, 1996 Democratic presidential primaries, 1992 Republican presidential primaries, and 1984 Republican presidential primaries for reference. RickStrate2029 (talk) 13:13, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Now that I think of it, maybe he should've been there no matter what? He's the second place human, which I guess could meet the criteria. Personisinsterest (talk) 22:45, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
 * In every recent presidential primary page where it's an incumbent running for re-election, the "second place human" is included in the infobox. Trump 2020, Obama 2012, Bush Jr. 2004, Clinton 1996, Bush Sr. 1992, Reagan 1984, etc. Some of those were legitimate challenges, but others were nobodies who received 0.1%. Dean Phillips simply being the silver medalist meets the criteria for him to be included based on precedent. RickStrate2029 (talk) 22:54, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I think Palmer is the second place human - At the moment, he is closer to the nomination than Phillips by virtue of having three more delegates, irregardless of the popular vote. Longestview (talk) 04:58, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Based on the Green Papers, Phillips is in-line to recieve 3 delegates in Ohio. Esolo5002 (talk) 05:14, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Sounds like a tie then. Longestview (talk) 05:16, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
 * So we include both? RickStrate2029 (talk) 03:11, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't rely on the Green Papers tabulations - they are extremely rough estimates and usually off.  ~Politicdude (About me, talk, contribs) 23:21, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
 * With Uncommitted being an option, if Phillips is to be included so must it, since it won more delegates and got a higher vote total. Uncommitted is also included in the 2012 and 1980 primaries. NonHydranary (talk) 16:23, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Phillips has three delegates as well (Ohio) RickStrate2029 (talk) 18:38, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Palmer meets the threshold by winning a race. If not for his little stunt in American Samoa, he wouldn't be here. Uncommitted is not a candidate, its a voting option, and so Philips meets second place criteria for human. Personisinsterest (talk) 10:40, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
 * If we are to add Phillips, then we should follow the 2012 model and keep uncommitted, as 2012 displays both Uncommitted and Wolfe. 1996 does as well. However, if Marianne surpasses Phillips in the popular vote, which is likely due to her ballot access, then we would have to add her. That's why I support having neither in the infobox unless one wins a contest or gets 5%. NonHydranary (talk) 17:07, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
 * If Palmer mattered that much, people would find out about him through the American Samoan contest. I don't see how it's of any general viewer's interest to show Jason Palmer and not Dean Phillips. Wikipedia should be informative. Borifjiufchu (talk) 05:24, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Dean has neither won a contest or got 5% of the national vote, he does not belong in the infobox. Getting delegates does not put you in the infobox. If he is to be included then Marianne must be added as well, as she got more votes. Uncommitted's inclusion is also dubious. However, if Dean is added, then we must go back and add candidates such as Tulsi, Klobuchar, Ben Carson, Jeb Bush, Rick Perry, Duncan Hunter, Rudy Giuliani, Fred Thompson, and many more.This is why simply winning delegates doesn't put you in the infobox. NonHydranary (talk) 15:37, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
 * The threshold is second place, 5%, or winning a race. Uncommitted is second place right now, and Dean Philips is second place for humans. Personisinsterest (talk) 10:43, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I don't support including him. He hasn't won a contest and is behind uncommitted. The fact that he's the second place human might make him worth including, but right now there's too many candidates and it doesn't add much to include him.  ~Politicdude (About me, talk, contribs) 23:23, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Agree we should include Phillips as he's won delegates (and indeed, for human candidates, is second-place in terms of delegates). Elli (talk &#124; contribs) 19:50, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Winning Delegates has never been a qualification for the infobox. Precedent is that you need 5% of the votes or to win a contest. You also need to come in second if none of those previous ones are met. Since Palmer already meets one, Phillips shouldn't be included. NonHydranary (talk) 22:44, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Okay, but it doesn't make sense to include Palmer but not Phillips, given that Phillips has won more delegates and a larger share of the popular vote (as well has having received significantly more media attention). I'm aware of the general guidelines but strictly applying them to presidential primary pages doesn't make sense, given the unique conditions present in each election. Elli (talk &#124; contribs) 00:25, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Palmer won a contest, if it weren't for that he wouldn't be on there. Again delegates don't matter when it comes to the infobox. Palmer won a contest, and Uncommitted is in second, Phillips doesn't have any colors on the map or a significant vote share. The only reason Palmer is there is American Samoa, if he had not won it of course he wouldn't be included. If Phillips is included, Marianne must be as well since she meets the same requirements he does. That would also mean including dozens of candidates in other pages that weren't consequential in their elections like Ben Carson, Amy Klobuchar, and John Edwards. NonHydranary (talk) 00:37, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Worth noting that Phillips and Palmer are currently tied when it comes to delegate count, with 3 each, unless NH's delegates are seated, which has not been confirmed yet.  ~Politicdude (About me, talk, contribs) 00:51, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Of course Philips is more deserving, but we're going strictly off the criteria here. Personisinsterest (talk) 01:18, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
 * We don't need to strictly follow "the criteria". I disagree that such strict criteria are particularly useful regarding presidential primaries. Elli (talk &#124; contribs) 01:19, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
 * When you’ve recieved nearly half a million votes and multiple delegates, you ought to be included. Many cases of much less significant people have been included, such as Weld in 2020 NathanBru (talk) 19:00, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
 * It's not the number of votes, it's the percentage. Weld is only there because he came in second place. Phillips has not gotten above 5% of the vote or won a contest. Do you think Ben Carson and Rudy Giuliani should be included in their pages? NonHydranary (talk) 20:15, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Yup. NathanBru (talk) 18:32, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Dean Phillips has just recently won a contest in the Nebraska Democratic Primary. He received the most votes of any candidate in Logan County, Nebraska with 55.6% of the vote. That should qualify him to make the infobox, right?
 * My references: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Nebraska_Democratic_presidential_primary
 * https://www.usatoday.com/elections/results/2024-05-14/primaries/democratic/nebraska Smobes (talk) 19:14, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Dean Phillips absolutely needs to be in the infobox, he is currently the second place person in terms of both delegates and the popular vote. RickStrate2029 (talk) 19:25, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Winning a county or county-equivalent does not count as "winning a content." These are not the contests that are counted in the infobox. Longestview (talk) 22:24, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
 * There is no case in the 1970s to present era of Democratic or Republican primaries where the second place human is not included in the infobox. Phillips is the second place human in both delegate count and popular vote, there is no reason for his exclusion. Counties are irrelevant in the discussion. RickStrate2029 (talk) 01:41, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
 * He should be included as he has won delegates. This isn't like 2020 where 8 different candidates have delegates, there is room in the infobox. Yeoutie (talk) 22:02, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

New Hampshire Popular Vote Inclusion
Recently the NH Dem Party had a convention to seat delegates at the DNC, therefore making the results of the January primary unofficial. Despite having previously been included, the popular vote totals for the NH primary are being removed by those claiming the recent convention invalidates them. I think this should be debated, and I am personally in favor of including those votes as part of the overall total, as those were real people who voted in a real election, and whose opinions should be included, and a state party convention that had no actual voting should not override this. NonHydranary (talk) 05:22, 7 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Real people who voted in an unsanctioned election. Prcc27 (talk) 06:20, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
 * The election was sanctioned by the state of New Hampshire on January 23rd. Both the popular votes of January 23rd and April 27th warrant inclusion in this page due to the fact that they were legitimately held and involved formal voting processes. RickStrate2029 (talk) 19:32, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
 * It was not sanctioned by the DNC. And we should not count the popular vote twice. Prcc27 (talk) 20:55, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
 * The popular vote results of the April 27th "firehouse primary" have yet to be counted on this page, so your latter comment is irrelevant until they get added.
 * As for your first comment, it is true that the January 23rd primary was not officially sanctioned by the DNC. However, DNC funding and endorsements were directed towards the Biden write-in campaign, and a high ranking member of the Democratic leadership (Rep. Jim Clyburn) called for the delegates to be counted following the Biden write-in campaign's victory in the primary.
 * Source: https://www.nbcboston.com/news/politics/bidens-write-in-win-clyburns-comments-give-nh-democrats-hope-amid-dnc-primary-spat/3271417/ RickStrate2029 (talk) 02:31, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
 * My latter comment is relevant because you were proposing adding both totals. Still not a sanctioned primary. Prcc27 (talk) 04:07, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Its not relevant until the popular vote total from the second primary is added, which it hasn't been, nor has a source been provided showing the results. RickStrate2029 (talk) 20:56, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
 * It should not be added to the total, period. That would skew the results since NH would count twice. Prcc27 (talk) 22:47, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Its been almost a month and its yet to be added, nor has the PV total been made public yet. Counting the vote twice is not a concern. RickStrate2029 (talk) 01:01, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
 * We wouldn't be counting anything twice since there are no results for the second "primary". NonHydranary (talk) 16:50, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Dean Phillips situation has changed
He is now the second placed human in delegates and thus should be included based on 2020 gop primary, 2012 dem primary Crazysportsdude1 (talk) 10:43, 19 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Yes, I agree that he should be included on the infobox now that four delegates have been awarded to him, and he has won the County of Logan, Nebraska, with 55.6% of the vote. One delegate was from Nebraska, and three delegates were from Ohio. Also, a sentence about him winning four delegates should be included in this page's top section.
 * Reference:
 * https://www.wsj.com/election/2024/primary/democratic Smobes (talk) 19:26, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
 * It would be just to reflect that he is now the second placed human in the 2024 Democratic party presidential primary with 4 delegates.
 * 3 delegates from Ohio, https://apnews.com/article/dean-phillips-delegates-biden-convention-election-primary-1e6ee75cfed9db931467a64bbf534d50
 * 1 delegate from Nebraska, Sorry it is not easy to find any mention what so ever about this from AP News.
 * cmobarry (talk) 20:37, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Agreed – added Phillips to the infobox. Yeoutie (talk) 01:11, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

New Hampshire Popular Vote In Map
In the map below the infobox there is a "first place by popular vote" section and a "first place by delegate allocation" section. In the popular vote section, Biden was declared the winner on January 23rd because of his write-in campaign's victory, however now there's been a second NH primary (which took place on April 27th). The April 27th primary did not include a popular vote, so I propose that New Hampshire be stripped blue and black to acknowledge both contests. RickStrate2029 (talk) 18:57, 22 May 2024 (UTC)