Talk:2024 Ohio State University pro-Palestinian campus protests

Timestamps on YouTube video
In the section 'April 29: Columbus City Council testimonies,' the following are the corresponding timestamps in the video with the testimonies. Please get them added to the citations for that section.


 * 42:10, 43:06 - students yelled slogans such as "shame"
 * 45:28 - The second student speaker alludes to her criminal charges.
 * For the "pending criminal charges" point, please add this citation: {{cite web |url=https://www.dispatch.com/story/opinion/2024/05/01/ohio-state-president-letter-about-protest-arrests/73513677007/ |title=Ohio State president's letter on April 29 about protest arrests |website=The Columbus Dispatch |date=May 1, 2024 |access-date=June 17, 2024}
 * 41:02 - The second student speaker described having "a severe concussion" from her injuries at the encampment.
 * 49:42 - The third student speaker describes his pants being pulled down after being ziptied.
 * 50:32 - The third student begins to describe the sequence of events that led to another demonstrator hitting his head, the police saying "that's what you signed up for," and it taking 15 minutes for the student to get paramedics.

@CNC, thank you for your help getting my changes added yesterday—I really appreciate it.

Onlineone22 (talk) 04:57, 17 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Not done... adding extraneous timestamps of a Youtube video seems a little WP:UNDUE, and adds no encyclopedic content or context... - Adolphus79 (talk) 05:16, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Suggestion
In the section 'April 29: Columbus City Council testimonies,' I believe the second student's testimony would be enhanced by including additional information. Beginning at 41:02, her speech is as follows:

I have transcribed it for you so that it is easier for you to include whatever parts of it you feel are conducive to the article (or at least paraphrase her main points with brief excerpts from her speech). Please make syntactic edits and use your discretion in what to include as needed. Upon request, I can rewrite the paragraph myself using this speech to save other editors time.

Speech transcription
- "Thanks to the officers on April 25th, I'm having a little trouble reading and writing and remembering things. My processing speed is about half, I have a severe concussion, so please bear with me today. You see when the officers saw me about four rows back and pointed me out about four community members stepped in front of me to stop my arrest. That is when they proceeded to pick me up by both my hair and my neck and slam my head into the ground and hold me there before dragging me through the grass of my oval. Not to mention at one point three officers picked me up by my ankles and wrists as an officer explained to trainee officers what a 'three-man hold' was. I am glad somebody learned something on campus today, because it certainly wasn't the sixteen students brutally assaulted emotionally and physically by officers—the same officers that you are unbelievably considering raising the budget for today. When we arrived at the jail, there were three hijabi women amongst us—two of which their hijabs were forcefully removed; one of which her hijab wasn't returned until I made a scene. And all of which were forced to take mugshots without their hijabs. They had twenty women in a holding cell which meant there was no place to pray. When I asked for something to pray on—once at 3:00, and the second time at 5:00—I was refused and instead berated and called disrespectful by an officer for repeating myself. We were refused both hilal and kosher meals, which didn't end up being a problem for us but was for our Jewish comrade who was ironically celebrating passover. The first day I came in here in October, I said we had been living in a dystopia, and honestly, I think I disagree with myself today. We haven't been living in a dystopia for the last week or even the last seven months; instead we have been living in a simulation, the Sparksnotes version if you will, a select taste of what life is like in Palestine, which should come as no surprise honestly because our cops are trained by the IOF and Israeli Leadership Academy [which] regularly visits the Columbus Police Academy. CPD has developed strategies and methodologies that were originally implemented and taught by Israeli right-wing lobby groups—the same groups that are currently perpetuating the massacre of 30,000 people in a little over 200 days. We had 41 people arrested, which is one-third of the average daily killed and injured in Gaza. We have women's hijabs being forcefully removed which is all too reminiscent of the humiliation tactics of the IOF, who regularly strip Palestinian women they arrest for no other reason than to humiliate. I won't be humiliated, nor will I allow them to think they humiliated [me]; I was likewise stripsearched by CPD in complete eyeline of male officers."

The cameras turn off, the crowd jeers "turn the camera on". Harding says "the camera is on. Please, Dilal, you can continue."

"We are having Palestinian students be brutalized emotionally and physically from Gaza to Columbus. I spent two days in the ER missing my thesis dissertation and my final exams, and you know what the fucked up thing really is?"

Harding: "Well if you continue to use language, we—"

Dilal: "I couldn't care less. Because I know—if you're upset at my language and not at the actions of your police force, then that's what's fucked up. No matter how many concussions, no matter how many times the CPD tries to intimidate, and no matter what tactics they use to scare and humiliate us, it won't even touch on what the people of Gaza have gone through. You are allowing—and if anything applauding, by even considering this budget change—the brutalization of your community for the agenda of a genocidal governmental body. You have only messed up since October. The least you can do for your community is work with us to drop the charges. Unfortunately, as students, we haven't learned a lot this schoolyear. We have been a little distracted, but [what] we have learned, and witnessed, and mastered in so little time is the teachings—and we are now teaching the importance of community and the need to protect one's community. As the world turns their heads to students and student activism, maybe you can take a minute to look in our direction and learn a thing or two as well."

Onlineone22 (talk) 05:00, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Not done... adding transcript of entire speech would be WP:UNDUE (WP:ASPECT)... - Adolphus79 (talk) 05:32, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Move video suggestion
In the 'April 29 Columbus City Council testimonies' section, the first video should be in April 25 encampment section, not the testimony section, as it is footage of what happened at the encampment. If this could please be moved that would be appreciated.

Onlineone22 (talk) 05:06, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Situation has resolved itself, "first video" was deleted for lack of permission... - Adolphus79 (talk) 17:53, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

June 1 section typo
"comprisedof" should be "comprised of".

Onlineone22 (talk) 05:07, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
 * No longer an issue... - Adolphus79 (talk) 05:26, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

June 1 source addition
Here is a video recording of the June 1st arrests. Protesters can visibly be seen in handcuffs in the background. I have worked for a very long time to get better sources for this event, but this was the best I could find (no news reports exist, and the only other sources dox the protesters involved). Hopefully this should be sufficient for the [more citations needed] marker to be removed.

Onlineone22 (talk) 01:53, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Not an actual edit request... the request must be of the form "please change X to Y"... - Adolphus79 (talk) 11:08, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

December 13 sources
I have a quick question regarding the "this section relies largely upon a single source" banner. Understandably, OSU would not want to make the issue of suspending a student org over a political issue more public than it needs to be. So there are very few sources outside of the article on CORS' website and a Lantern article (both of which are cited). How could we be expected to add more sources to this section if the only sources that could be expected to report upon this issue in detail (aside from The Lantern) are first-hand accounts of the events that occurred? More specifically, what realistically can we do to remove the "This section relies largely or entirely upon a single source" banner?

Onlineone22 (talk) 01:53, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Not an actual edit request, and editor has since had reliable sources explained to them... - Adolphus79 (talk) 05:42, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Additional media: April 25, 2024
Here are 7 more media from April 25, 2024 Gaza Solidarity Encampment. Please edit their captions and upload them as you feel is needed for the article (probably choose the ones you think are most important).















09:22, 17 June 2024 (UTC) Onlineone22 (talk) 09:22, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Not an actual edit request... the request must be of the form "please change X to Y"... - Adolphus79 (talk) 11:07, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Removal of sentence request
'April 25: Gaza Solidarity Encampment' section:

"By the end of the evening, at least 36 protesters, including 16 Ohio State students and 20 non-Ohio State students, had been arrested,"

This has a typo and is redundant, considering how 36 protesters being arrested is mentioned directly below. If it could please be removed, that would be appreciated.

Onlineone22 (talk) 09:31, 17 June 2024 (UTC)


 * The redundancy was taken care of during recent c/e... - Adolphus79 (talk) 05:25, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Typo Vol 2
'April 20: Ohio State Student Union protest clash' "at a masked protester" has an unnecessary period after it.

Onlineone22 (talk) 16:18, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Done... - Adolphus79 (talk) 05:09, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Proposal to rename all instance of pro-Palestine to pro-Palestinian
I propose that we rename all instance of pro-Palestine to pro-Palestinian for the sake of consistency.

Onlineone22 (talk) 18:17, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

May 22: Council of Graduate Students email conflict
On May 22, 2024, the Council of Graduate Students (CGS), the "official representative body for graduate students at The Ohio State University," sent a mass email to OSU students. This email criticized the OSU administration's response to pro-Palestinian protests, condemning "the use of excessive force and consequent legal repercussions in response to those exercising their civil liberties peacefully." They demanded dismissal of charges toward those arrested, demanded a "town-hall" style meeting with OSU administration, and demanded that President Carter release a public statement "rectifying the wrongs" of law enforcement.

Three hours later, the Office of Student Life sent a subsequent mass email to all recipients of this message which read: "the statement from the Council of Graduate Students (CGS) you received a short time ago contains a number of misleading and inaccurate statements. Given that the CGS message was sent via a university-facilitated system... we are obligated to provide this awareness as it is important for you to understand the facts surrounding the recent protests on campus."

The main points of contention between these emails entail the following:


 * CGS claimed the response of police were "disproportionately aggressive" toward "protesters in hijabs and keffiyeh," claiming the administration singled out student organizers. The administration responded: "no specific groups or individuals were targeted other than those who refused to comply with the lawful order to disperse."
 * The administration claimed that, contrary to what CSG stated, they were not limiting free speech, but were enforcing university space rules "so that teaching, learning, research, service and patient care can occur on our campuses without interruption."
 * In response to CGS' accusation of framing protester action as violent and not properly communicating about breaches of policy, the administration claimed: "well established university space rules prohibit camping and overnight events." Notably, pro-Palestinian students were arrested during the daytime before an encampment was established.

Onlineone22 (talk) 18:57, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

Proposal to edit President Carter hyperlinks
Proposal to update most instances of "President Carter" or similar cases in this article to President Carter. Onlineone22 (talk) 18:58, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Not done... requested edit would break WP:REPEATLINK... - Adolphus79 (talk) 05:05, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Proposal to add to "authority responses" section
Please add this to the "authority responses" section:

In a public statement from President Carter where he claimed he wanted to "set the record straight," mentioning how he "wore the cloth of our nation for 38 years to support and defend [free speech]," Carter cited several reasons for the administration's crackdown on the April 25 Gaza Solidarity Encampment:
 * Carter claimed there were "significant safety issues created by encampment on other campuses across our nation" and that "Ohio State's campus will not be overtaken in this manner."
 * Carter stated that despite "warnings and clear information about the rules, student organizations and outside entities promoted both the morning and the 5 p.m. activities as 'encampments,'" citing how many protesters on-campus "were not students, faculty or staff at Ohio State."
 * Carter claimed the encampment created "undue pressure on proximate buildings, in this case the Ohio Union, for restrooms and personal hygiene."
 * Carter claimed the encampment created a "disturbance to our residential community Baker Hall."
 * Carter claimed the Ohio Union is "an exam location, including for students with disabilities."

Onlineone22 (talk) 19:11, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

Request to update note at bottom of page saying PFLP is a terrorist organization
The United States claimed PFLP is a terrorist organization citation (please replace [citation needed]):

The United Nations, upon further inspection, has not claimed it's a terrorist organization, so please remove this whenever you get the opportunity. Onlineone22 (talk) 09:48, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Not done... not according to Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine or the State Department... - Adolphus79 (talk) 05:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Please add this photograph to the part of the article where the "long-ranged firearms" are discussed.


Onlineone22 (talk) 03:10, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Request to change all instances of "Ohio State" to OSU
As the title says, for consistency's sake. Thank you. Onlineone22 (talk) 17:07, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Rename request
I request we rename section 'Administration conflicts with pro-Palestine organizations' to 'Administration conflicts with pro-Palestine protesters' for the sake of consistency. Onlineone22 (talk) 06:05, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Not done... the section is about organizations, not individual protestors... - Adolphus79 (talk) 05:53, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Request to substitute image which is soon being removed
Please replace with

The former image is being removed from Wiki due to the author not submitting a copyright claim.

Thank you! Onlineone22 (talk) 00:52, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

OSU President Carter
TODO: update this section with archived details from Walter E. Carter Jr.'s page. Onlineone22 (talk) 21:55, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

OSU Administration
Ohio State University officials, including university spokesperson Benjamin Johnson, have referenced Ohio Revised Code Section 9.76, a state law passed in 2016 and amended in 2022, which prohibits state agencies, including public universities, from boycotting Israel or divesting from companies that have policies against Israel.

Ohio Governor Mike DeWine
Onlineone22 (talk) 01:06, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Section has been condensed, and excerpts no longer exist... - Adolphus79 (talk) 05:07, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Add new section to antisemitism section
Please add this to the antisemitism section.

April 25: Zionists at Gaza Solidarity Encampment
According to Dr. Keith Kilty, there were zionists at the Gaza Solidarity Encampment:

""I saw with my own eyes a group of individuals carrying the Israeli flag and with clothing displaying the Star of David trying to harass and to intimidate individuals gathered yesterday to support Palestinian rights. Fortunately, the organizers had made it clear to demonstrators that they should not engage with counter-demonstrators, to ignore threats or efforts at intimidation. What I DID NOT SEE was any of your overwhelming police presence intervene and move those counter-demonstrators away.""

- Dr. Keith Kilty Onlineone22 (talk) 07:02, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Better sources?
A large part of this article reads like POV original research, or is based on self-published sources (Instagram, Youtube, etc.). How much of this can be verified through independent reliable sources? - Adolphus79 (talk) 08:10, 3 July 2024 (UTC)


 * @Adolphus79, thanks for stopping by.
 * When it comes to evidence in the op-ed in the previous Talk Page section: — Preceding unsigned comment added by Onlineone22 (talk • contribs) 21:50, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
 * https://archive.org/details/crowdDay
 * Clicking "Show All" on the above link will lead you to the following media:
 * https://ia803406.us.archive.org/10/items/crowdDay/crowdDay.jpeg
 * ia903406.us.archive.org/10/items/crowdDay/circleOval.mp4
 * ia903406.us.archive.org/10/items/crowdDay/marchOval.mp4
 * There is no evidence of them harassing protesters in this footage. That said, I think we should still include the quote with a disclaimer that the zionists in the video have not been confirmed harassing students but were confirmed to have been present at the encampment in the aforementioned media.
 * Onlineone22 (talk) 21:49, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I will respond to your point regarding the rest of the evidence in this article tonight. Onlineone22 (talk) 21:51, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
 * If it can not be verified by third party independent sources, it does not belong on Wikipedia. That is a rather important policy here. How do we even know the people in these random videos are who the uploader claims? I could upload a random video and claim the people in the footage are space aliens that abducted me, but can it be verified? I don't see any signs saying "we are Zionists", or "we are not". This is exactly why the content on Wikipedia needs to always be sourced with reliable third party sources. Do you have any articles from a published newspaper (the Lantern is even a little questionable) saying who was there, who was hurt, what happened, how it happened? - Adolphus79 (talk) 22:58, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Google Maps is a third-party source that can be used to verify the location of these videos. Look up the South Oval in Columbus on Google Maps.
 * These videos and images coincide with official videos and images taken by third-party sources that day.
 * These people are holding the Israeli flag at a pro-Palestinian event. People who wave the Israeli flag at Palestinian events generally tend to support the state of Israel... i.e., they are zionists.
 * If what you say is true, that any photo/video on Wikipedia needs to be explicitly verified by a third-party source and is not verifiable through common sense and consistency with third-party reports, then nearly every single image or video uploaded to Wikipedia might as well be taken down because third-party sources upload their media to their websites and do not grant copyright permission to Wiki to use their images. This extreme form of epistemic skepticism is counter-productive in my view and leaves no room to trust anyone who uploads their own media to Wikipedia.
 * You have to understand, there are practically no reports of these events except for in local newspapers (The Lantern and the Columbus Dispatch) and posts from the organizers. This does not mean these events did not happen, nor that it's not important.  National news outlets you'd perceive as being more credible just tend to not cover local events in significant detail, unless it's a Columbia-scale protest.
 * Primary sources are cited in this Wiki page to say which organizers are involved and to present the arguments of organizers against the administration. The administration has the OSU official website to make claims; the organizers have Instagram to make claims.  This is just what goes into presenting the arguments of both sides.  It is not crazy to assume that if an Instagram post from SJP (which has thousands of likes and views) announces the encampment a few days before and SJP is the main organizer of the encampments across the nation that this Instagram post verifies SJP and cross-post collaborators are the people who hosted the event.
 * This is all a very long way of saying primary sources have a place on Wikipedia. When it comes to claiming what actually occurred, there are no instances in this Wikipedia article where primary source accounts are presented as fact (I am welcome to your criticism if you disagree).  Only third parties are deferred to in this regard, and if a primary source disagrees with a third party (e.g., about the number of arrests), it is stated that a primary source disagrees and the third-party accounts of events is still provided.
 * Please give specific criticisms about sources rather than making general claims about the invalidity of Instagram posts of the organizers. Acting as if we cannot use common sense to verify the validity of claims, like that Israel flag bearers camping outside an anti-Israel event who have been called zionists by primary sources are zionists, only makes it more difficult for people to learn what they come to this article to learn about, which is antithetical to the goal of Wikipedia.
 * Onlineone22 (talk) 03:13, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Did you fully read the links I provided? Like I said, this is not a personal opinion, this is a Wikipedia policy. The Dispatch is a good source, Instagram is not. - Adolphus79 (talk) 08:18, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes, I read the policies. In WP:RS, it explicitly says "Source reliability falls on a spectrum: No source is 'always reliable' or 'always unreliable' for everything. However, some sources provide stronger or weaker support for a given statement. Editors must use their judgment to draw the line between usable and inappropriate sources for each statement."  This directly contradicts what you said about Instagram always being an unreliable source.
 * The following sections in WP:RS also imply there are circumstances in which Instagram content can be acceptable:
 * WP:CONTEXTMATTERS
 * WP:BIASED
 * WP:SELFSOURCE
 * All of the above conditions are met for the Instagram posts I use.
 * Finally, citations of Instagram posts are explicitly supported in Wikipedia syntax, which would not be the case if Instagram content is always unreliable like you claim.
 * So sure, the argument can be made that Instagram generally tends to be a weaker source, but I accounted for this in my previous argument along the lines of the aforementioned policies.
 * Onlineone22 (talk) 15:03, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Onlineone22 (talk) 15:03, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Reinstate sniper to list of grievances
@Adolphus79

https://www.instagram.com/p/C6ZZKRRuWN7/?img_index=2

This is an example of 5 student organizations that publicly took issue with the administration aiming snipers at students. Please reinstate the sniper to the list of grievances in the bio of the page. I take responsibility for not citing this Instagram post initially after including it among the list of grievances.

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2024_Ohio_State_University_pro-Palestinian_campus_protests&diff=prev&oldid=1232348703

Onlineone22 (talk) 15:29, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Better source needed for video showing exactly what was described?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Ohio_State_University_pro-Palestinian_campus_protests#April_20:_Ohio_State_Student_Union_protest_clash

Why does this section say "better source needed" @Adolphus79? The idea you cannot look at a video and transcribe exactly what occurs in that video into text simply because it was posted on Instagram by a primary source (respectfully) is ridiculous.

As a side note, I do appreciate the quality of life edits you're making to the article.

Onlineone22 (talk) 15:34, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Compromise on arrested number
Third-party sources have confirmed 2 arrests at Meiling Hall and 36 at the Gaza Solidarity Encampment.

Primary sources claim 41 were arrested at the Gaza Solidarity Encampment and that 2 were arrested in a subsequent protest in the Ohio Student Union, which has documented video footage of the arrests, on June 1.

Let's say 38 confirmed arrests by third-party sources and 45 accused arrests by protesters as a compromise @Adolphus79.

After all, this is a rapidly-developing situation and the importance of at least acknowledging the claims of primary sources is essential.

Onlineone22 (talk) 15:40, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Removal of event with documented video footage?
@Adolphus79 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Onlineone22 (talk • contribs) 15:45, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Removal of an event with documented verifiable video footage covering that exact event does not make sense (viz. the June 1st events).

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2024_Ohio_State_University_pro-Palestinian_campus_protests&diff=prev&oldid=1232352518

This section should not have been removed; it should have been prefaced with a header saying "in a video of what appears to be X according to protesters and in an unverified public statement by protesters" or however you'd like to phrase it as a disclaimer. If there is documented video footage of the event included as a citation, it is relevant to this Wiki article. Just because an event was minor enough for major news outlets not to write an entire article on it does not mean it does not deserve at least 1 or 2 sentences of description when a video can verify that it occurred. Please see WP:SELFSOURCE which in my view upholds this argument.

Please see citation with footage of the event here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:2024_Ohio_State_University_pro-Palestinian_campus_protests#June_1_source_addition

Onlineone22 (talk) 15:44, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Revert removal of information from CORS section (this removal of info potentially violates WP:NPOV?)
Changes made to the CORS suspension part of this article removing the response of the student organization by @Adolphus79 violate WP:NPOV by refusing to present both sides of the argument: the side of the administration, and the response of the organization. Rather, he only includes the unconfirmed claims of the administration merely because their accusation was on The Lantern, refusing to even present the response of the student organization.

This change needs to be reverted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2024_Ohio_State_University_pro-Palestinian_campus_protests&diff=prev&oldid=1232353012 Onlineone22 (talk) 20:58, 5 July 2024 (UTC)


 * While WP:PRIMARY sources are not prohibited, they are generally discouraged and I think the old content was clearly overusing them. Although notability doesn't apply to content, lack of secondary coverage suggests that a topic shouldn't be given much WP:WEIGHT, i.e. several paragraphs is probably too much.
 * It looks like the current text still has a couple sentences based on the self-published CORS source. Is that not a good summary of their response? Is there a different summary that you'd be okay with, while still keeping it similarly brief? — xDanielx  T/C\R 22:10, 5 July 2024 (UTC)