Talk:2024 Venezuelan presidential election

Lead
The lead should summarize the irregularities and concerns of previous elections as well as the government intervention in the opposition primaries. ReyHahn (talk) 15:19, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much for the lead expansion, I think that the current one summarizes the situation pretty well. Political parties interventions can be included once there is enough information in the article. --NoonIcarus (talk) 15:24, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

Conduct
Just found out today that Caracas Chronicles has this beautifully put live update of the primaries. I will try starting the section in short. NoonIcarus (talk) 00:00, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

Article name
Shouldn't the name of this article be "2024 Venezuelan presidential election"? First, unless elections are suspended, there's always going to be a "next election", and second, using the year is in line with naming conventions for articles about elections in other countries. I don't want to simply rename the page without consensus, and I'm not sure how to make the proposal for a name change, so anybody should feel free to do the latter if they agree with me. Ira Leviton (talk) 14:49, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Two ways to go with it. Change it to 2024 Venezuelan presidential election or wait a bit (Venezuelan elections are a mess). The former will need update if the date changes but it is not a problem. I am ok with both.--ReyHahn (talk) 20:13, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I have gone ahead and moved the article. It is very unlikely that said elections will take place this year, and the only way that elections don't take place next year is that they are postponed or suspended. At this point, I think it's better to reconsider a rename only if that happens, and keep the current title ("2024 Venezuelan presidential election"). --NoonIcarus (talk) 23:04, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

The Polling data
After reading the poll source that the article says 60% refused to answer, I saw that it instead said that they were undecided/not commited to either the opposition or PSUV. The author of the source also indicates this in his writing in it. Is there any reason why it is labeled misleadingly in the article? 66.44.40.36 (talk) 23:52, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Maduro picture
Is Maduro already confirmed? Why is he in the infobox? ReyHahn (talk) 10:13, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
 * I found this article that mentions that National Assembly Speaker Jorge Rodríguez said that he was going to tbe the official candiate, but I would say further confirmation is needed. What seems to be clear is pro-government officials ruling out running as candidates. --NoonIcarus (talk) 21:27, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
 * It seems to soon to be added to the infobox. The lack of information in the whole process should be reflected here.--ReyHahn (talk) 09:21, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Roger that, I have removed the image accordingly. I have left the PSUV since they're still the ruling party, but leaving the candidate parameter as "to be announced". Let me know what you think. --NoonIcarus (talk) 02:56, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Recent candidates
Hi, best wishes. Could you please confirm if the recent candidates added in the infobox have officially inscribed to the electoral process? (Antonio Ecarri Angola, Luis Eduardo Martinez and Daniel Ceballos). If so, said information could be updated in the article. Kind regards, NoonIcarus (talk) 10:30, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Just reading that this is the case:. --NoonIcarus (talk) 10:38, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Infobox
Des anyone know how to make the infobox that has all of the candidates smaller? Ballers1919 (talk) 17:43, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Done. Number   5  7  18:10, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Lead 2
Regarding this edit, what the lead currently needs it's an update. It's from around and before the opposition primaries, in November, and it currently should show the process of the inscription of candidates. That naturally means an update to the article, though. I'll see what I can help with later. NoonIcarus (talk) 11:02, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Running mates
There's a section in the article's main infobox that mentions "running mates" for candidates, which is blank for all candidates with the exception of Juan Carlos Alvarado being listed as Luis Eduardo Martínez' running mate. The figure of a running mate doesn't exist in Venezuelan elections since the Vice President is not an elected official—it's appointed by the President like ministers are. 190.103.58.14 (talk) 17:40, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Endorsements section
Most of the Endorsements section is primary sourced, WP:UNDUE, and needs to be deleted; only those mentioned in secondary sources should be retained. Please review WP:NOT -- not a directory, not a blog, not a webhost, not a publisher of original thought. The entire section is just not encyclopedic, and not what Wikipedia should be used for. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  02:47, 5 May 2024 (UTC)


 * And many of the bare-URL, primary source tweets don't even verify the text. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  10:41, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Content moved to Talk:2024 Venezuelan presidential election/Endorsements. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  10:45, 5 May 2024 (UTC)


 * If a politician or former politician, or a political party, states "vote for this candidate". That is an endorsement. The Spanish version of this page includes the political parties that have thrown their support behind a candidate. Most Wikipedia pages that cover elections use an endorsement page. There should be no need for a secondary source when the person states on their OWN social media page "Vote for this candidate", that's an endorsement. Yes, it is possible that some of them were not cited correctly, but the endorsement page is very significant, especially in this election in Venezuela. Let's not undo everything until we can find a solution. There is nothing "blog" or "web host" like of an endorsements page. That is exactly why Wikipedia gives the option to make an Endorsements box, to use it for endorsements.


 * If it makes more sense, let's clean up the endorsements section INSTEAD of deleting everything. Or if it is easier, let's make a specific page for "Endorsements of the campaigns 2024 Venezuela presidential election" or something similar. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ballers1919 (talk • contribs) 17:48, May 5, 2024 (UTC)


 * Please sign and correctly thread your talk page posts. Undue original research to this extent can't be cleaned up; there is narry a secondary source in the lot. Further, this is an important article this year, and the UNDUE primary-source content is overwhelming the article, which also has considerable cleanup needs (including WP:PROSELINE, datedness, prose issues, and more bare URLs); restoring UNDUE content (almost all tweets, not all of which are actually even endorsements) impedes progress that is needed. Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  18:50, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Ballers1919, per Political endorsements and specifically, the inclusion criteria outlined here, "Lists of endorsements should only include endorsements which have been covered by reliable independent sources." That means endorsements shouldn't be sourced to tweets and need a better source. David O. Johnson (talk) 19:11, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * See also point 3 on that page. Further, what is on the Spanish Wikipedia has no relevance here.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  21:40, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Non-reliable, primary source polling data
please read WP:RS, this section which utilizes secondary sources, and refrain from adding non-reliable primary source polling data from outlets which reliable secondary sources describe as not meeting Wikipedia's sourcing guidelines. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  17:54, 27 June 2024 (UTC)


 * And now blanking of text cited to highly reliable sources (eg New York Times); I suggest self-reverting. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  18:43, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

When/if the edit warring stops, this correction still needs to be fixed anew (unlike the other new "pollster"s, Hinterlaces is not new, so the flow is now off). These intervening citations were also lost in edit warring. could you please engage the talk page here regarding the non-reliability of sources you are using? Sandy Georgia (Talk)  20:09, 27 June 2024 (UTC)


 * We are not making progress with regard to how to use and evaluate reliable sources (sample); please use the talk page. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  20:54, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
 * @SandyGeorgia, I agree with you. That user is now blocked for edit warring, but their edits with many unreliable sources and content are still in the article. Those need to be removed. It’s a bit difficult as that user made so many edits (over 100 hundred a day! Obviously not a newbie?!) Do you think we should restore to an earlier version before the disruptive editing? But that would also revert some of the later legitimate edits made by you too (e.g. the nyt reference). -- Dustfreeworld (talk) 09:49, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I need to make repairs to the new polling para and see where things stand but have no free time 'til this afternoon ... I don't think the Magi understands WP:RS, and we can't buttress non-RS primary sources with non-independent and dubious secondary sources ... Wikipedia shouldn't be spreading fake news from recently created "pollsters". I'm unsure how to handle Hinterlaces, as it's not a new creation ... will look this afternoon. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  14:06, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Agree that Wikipedia shouldn’t be spreading fake news. I’m not sure how to handle ... IMO remove when in doubt. BTW, I’ve updated this page based on the sources in this article. Feel free to check it for errors :) -- Dustfreeworld (talk) 14:25, 28 June 2024 (UTC); -- Dustfreeworld  (talk) 19:12, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I'm still working, but piecemeal today as my time is divided. I was still trying to finish the polling section when the edit warring started ... Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  15:28, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Finished writing the Polling section, will address UNDUE/non-RS content in tables later (I have found no independent source which endorses these "new pollsters" -- fake news -- and note that any secondary sources added are those with ties to the Maduro administration). Sandy Georgia (Talk)  15:48, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks. -- Dustfreeworld (talk) 19:13, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I have removed the non-reliable primary source data, in some instances backed only by non-independent secondary sources, per the analysis of reliable secondary sources here. I left Hinterlaces because, although it has the same issues as others, it is a long-standing pollster (albeit with a record of bias), rather than a newly invented website with no history or track record. These tables are overly complicated and might be reduced to the main candidates (Maduro, Gonzalez Urrutia, Machado).   Should Magi Merlin/Bolt Kjerag/Dirceu Mag return to editing, they need to engage the talk page to discuss and understand reliability of sources and address the analysis by multiple reliable sources about the origin of these "new pollsters"; see WP:ONUS, the policy regarding addition of disputed content.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  20:18, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Sock blocked, and has been here before, so other contents should be checked. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  23:22, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Late to this party but for the record, I wish I had caught them and warned you all earlier when their last edit summary mentioned the word soup boxing, which was the same description Bolt Kjerag used to defend their WP:SOAPBOXING on behalf of one particular party in 2024 Pakistani general election. Borgenland (talk) 13:41, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Thank you, ; I am concerned that similar is happening at the es.wikipedia article, but don't really know how to navigage SPI over there. I am seeing involvment at multiple country election articles, suggestive of paid editing (which was always bound to be an issue here). Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  13:54, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Not sure also about that, but I think you could either raise it either at the Wiki Village Pump, the Tea House or ANI. That user needs a global block. Borgenland (talk) 14:05, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Perhaps we can also ping someone to look into it? -- Dustfreeworld (talk) 14:59, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I posted at the es.wikipedia talk page. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  15:10, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Also suggest some sort of page protection to prevent such crappy edits by bona fide hacks. Borgenland (talk) 16:45, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure there's enough bad activity here to warrant semi-protection, but we can ask . Sandy Georgia (Talk)  18:17, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Semi-protection from the sock? Meh. It works well against IP disruption, but a decent sock will just get autoconfirmed somewhere else. There's ECP, of course, but this sock is so obvious that that detection should be a problem, now that y'all got a good look at them. And if I were you I'd just revert to this version and start again. Drmies (talk) 19:12, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

As no one showed up at es.wikipedia to correct the "poll" information, I added it myself there, and flagged the questionable sources (noting that similarly no one showed up to submit a sock puppet investigation at es.wiki, but I don't know how to do that). Sandy Georgia (Talk)  14:36, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Mass Behavior Research
I haven't found anything indicating reliability on this organization (but I haven't had time to dig deep). Sandy Georgia (Talk)  20:30, 28 June 2024 (UTC)


 * I removed two entries (of the tables) sourced to El Universal, per WP:WikiProject Venezuela/Reliable and unreliable sources. BTW, currently there are some entries cited to facebook or X (twitter), should we keep them? -- Dustfreeworld (talk) 05:52, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
 * That would need investigation ... the article is poor with similar throughout, and I don't have time to fix it all or investigate every instance. Of interest at this point is that socks are active in this article, and there is probably paid editing per viewing the histories of the various socks. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  09:01, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Yep. I’m glad that you have removed most of the problematic edits added to the Polls section recently. Magi Merlin is a WP:SPA that has made 253 edits to this article in only three days. Checking every instance would likely be a lot of work ... -- Dustfreeworld  (talk) 14:44, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

Another (Global Census)
Are the people adding these sources actually reading them ? Sandy Georgia (Talk)  13:15, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Gónzales in the article lead
Edmundo Gónzales is the main candidate of the Unitary Platform, the lead should be updated to address that. What could be the right wording? ReyHahn (talk) 15:11, 28 June 2024 (UTC)


 * the citations in the first sentence of the Polls section may give you the wording you seek ... for example, Reuters and New York Times (Spanish version) specifically refer to Gonzalez Urrutia as the main opposition candidate. I named most of those refs for your re-use. Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  20:24, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

"Primaries" section
Does anyone think that we should remove the section that talks about the Unitary Platform presidential primaries? It is a lot of information that could just be given a link to the 2023 Unitary Platform presidential primaries instead of explaining everything on this page. Thoughts? Ballers1919 (talk) 18:34, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
 * We are far from a WP:PROSESIZE issue, I think it adds context but can be trimmed later if necessary.--ReyHahn (talk) 19:06, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Uncited graph, ONUS, BRD
are you familiar with WP:ONUS and WP:BRD ? The graph you reintroduced here is uncited original research. No idea is given what sources are being used (and we already know most of the polling sources in the article are essentially "fake news"). I removed the graph on 27 June; WP:BRD applies, and WP:ONUS states that "The responsibility for achieving consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content". Please engage talk and explain your sources. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  16:04, 16 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Original research does not belong to article. -- Dustfreeworld (talk) 21:37, 16 July 2024 (UTC)