Talk:20 July plot/Archives/2021/July

Suggested addition - International Political Reactions
Considering the plot was made in hope of gaining international sympathy in the west for Germany it would be an interesting and relevant addition to have a section of this article on reactions to the plot news among governments. I am aware that in Britain Prime Minister Churchill made a statement to the House of Commons, but dismissed the coup attempt as an 'internecine' act (according to a magazine article I recall reading about 20 yrs ago) and maintained his position opposing any separate peace with Germany.Cloptonson (talk) 12:51, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

Gerlach
According to the text, Gerlach proved that Tresckow or Gersdorff were aware of mass murder happening in the East from at least 1941, but all that appears in the text is an unsourced claimed that Gerlach said to say otherwise is "nonsense". Is that his argument? Perhaps the argument is too detailed to be found on the 20 July plot page and would constitute a major fork, but it should at least be cited or linked to. There is also a lot of some historians and some other historians without listing who these historians are.


 * Such actions lead historians to question the motives of the plotters, which seemed more concerned with the military situation than with Nazi atrocities and German war crimes

Breaking down this sentence, the writer of this text is claiming that signing orders for the deportation of children for labor lead to a historian conclusion that the motive of the plot seems to involve the military situation more than Nazi atrocities/German war crimes, but the text fails to present the argument as to why signing orders for the deportation of children demonstrates that there is more concern in the military situation than for Nazi atrocities/German war crimes in the motives of an assassination plot. What is actually the basis for this argument, that signing orders for the deportation of children for labor constitutes a moral bankruptcy where by default the motives of an assassination plot can be assumed based on the presumed motives of signing an order for the deportation of children for labor? Justforthisthing (talk) 18:17, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

Misquote
I repaired the passage that cited Michael Burleigh's work, which did not contain what this Wikipedia article alleges it to contain. For reference, the three quotes of Hoepner are:


 * This struggle requires ruthless and energetic action against Bolshevik agitators, guerrillas, saboteurs and Jews, and the total elimination of all active or passive resistance. The members of the Red Army –including prisoners – must be treated with extreme reserve and the greatest caution since one must reckon with devious methods of combat. The asiatic soldiers of the Red Army in particular are devious, cunning and without feeling.

and:


 * The war against Russia is an important chapter in the struggle for existence of the German nation. It is the old battle of the Germanic against the Slav peoples, of the defence of European culture against Moscovite-asiatic inundation, and the repulse of Jewish Bolshevism. The objective of this battle must be the [Ed. Note: "Zerstrümmern", i.e. smashing] of present-day Russia and it must therefore be conducted with unprecedented severity. Every military action must be guided in planning and execution by an iron will to exterminate the enemy mercilessly and totally. In particular, no adherents of the pre‐ sent Russian-Bolshevik system are to be spared

and:


 * Erich Hoepner, whom we have just encountered, called the invasion ‘hara-kiri’.

--Justforthisthing (talk) 20:50, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

More than 7,000 people were arrested and 4,980 were executed - ?
I wonder how Kershaw came to this extraordinary high number. de notices around 700 arrests and ca. 110 executions connected with the 20 July plot. Even if one reads information about victims of Aktion Gitter in this context, no hint is given at such high numbers. --129.187.244.19 (talk) 09:04, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

More than 20 people were injured with three officers later perishing - ?
"More than" - Why no exact number ? Correctly: of 24 people in the room, one was killed instantly, three died later. That means: 4 dead, 20 surviving wounded. Every person in the room became "casualty", including Hitler. Red circles obviously mean "fatalities". Right ? --213.172.123.242 (talk) 07:07, 3 July 2021 (UTC)