Talk:24 Hours of Daytona/Archive 1

Previous Races
I'm doing some research on this now, appears it originally began in 1962 as a 3 hour race, and expanded into the current 24 hour format in 1966. - Polarism 10:28, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Frequent Winners?
"Frequent winners"? Somebody needs to clarify. From what I've read (not citable...), only 2 marques won the 24h more than once, Porsche & Jag. Trekphiler 16:12, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

gurney gravity vs. electric power:
Unfortunately, the only online discussion of the debate seems to be BBS based, so I didn't list it in the article as reference, but it's here: http://forums.autosport.com/showthread.php?postid=2240416 http://forums.autosport.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=50075&highlight=gurney+daytona I'm not making it up. Gzuckier 17:42, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Gurney just said on the 2008 Coverage of the Rolex, that he used gravity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.1.172.159 (talk) 20:08, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Article Title
The proper name of this page should be 24 Hours of Daytona. The Rolex 24 at Daytona name is merely a sponsorship deal started in 1991 and is not guarenteed to remain. Therefore we should go by the most generally known title for the race, the 24 Hours of Daytona. Other examples include the Spa 24 Hours, which is technically called the Proximus Spa 24 Hours, 1000km Nürburgring which is generally called the ADAC 1000km Nürburgring, and so on. Please do not move the page again. The359 03:36, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
 * The race is called 24 Hours of Daytona. Rolex is the current sponsor. If a new sponsor comes along, the race doesn't change name, it only changes sponsor - the use of the Rolex name is temporary and secondary to the race's real name. Not only that, the previous revert had eliminated some minor clean-up I had done, and had the "star drivers" section once more splitting the related DP/GT sections. --Pc13 14:18, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
 * No, sir. It doesn't matter what you think the name is. The official name of the race is the Rolex 24 at Daytona, per the official Daytona International Speedway site and the official Grand-Am site and independent media coverage. Until and unless that name changes, that's what the race is and that's what it should be on Wikipedia. If it changes, we change the article title. Simple enough. FCYTravis 06:15, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
 * The official title of the Spa 24 Hours is the "Proximus Spa 24 Hours." And yet that is not the title of the article on Wikipedia, because Proximus is merely a sponsor.  Also note that the official name of the 12 Hours of Sebring is the "Mobil 1 12 Hours of Sebring."  And yet, again, that is not the title of the article on Wikipedia.  1000km Nürburgring, 1000km Spa, 24 Hours of Le Mans, 1000km Monza, Spa 24 Hours, Suzuka 1000km, 12 Hours of Sebring.  Notice a trend here?  This is the proper naming scheme for the article.  None of these titles include sponsor names since sponsors come and go, and Rolex will come and go as well.  This article, in order to fit in with the titles used on all other race names, is 24 Hours of Daytona.  Please do not revert again or else you are threatening to become close to 3RR.  The359 06:54, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Chick-fil-A Bowl. Formerly the "Peach Bowl" - but it's not the Peach Bowl anymore. It's the Capital One Bowl - not the Citrus Bowl. It's the Outback Bowl, not the Hall of Fame Bowl. It's not the "24 Hours of Daytona" anymore - it's the Rolex 24 At Daytona. Not the "Rolex 24 Hours of Daytona" - so it's not just the old name with the sponsor appended to it. It's a different construction entirely. Furthermore, per the wonderful results database at WSPR-racing.com, the race title has been continuously Rolex 24 At Daytona since 1993. Thus, I hardly see any pressing need for us to worry about whether or not we might need to change it - we can cross that bridge easily enough when we come to it. If it happens every 15 years, well, gee, that's not so difficult, is it? Certainly less so than some of these bowl games here today and gone tomorrow, yet it seems that we can keep up with those. Also, as I do not see any established consensus for your view (indeed, we have two people on each side) for you to threaten me with 3RR (when I had moved exactly once in that time) is highly out of order. FCYTravis 07:17, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
 * There is a general consensus. I believe it's 24 Hours of Daytona given the evidence presented, Pc13 also agrees that it is 24 Hours of Daytona, and User:Zscout370 also agrees that it is 24 Hours of Daytona, specifically stating that the naming conventions of Wikipedia state that the most common name should be used, not a sponsors name.
 * WSPR also specifically lists BOTH "Rolex 24 at Daytona" and "24 h Daytona" in it's race reports, meaning "24 h Daytona" is the common name.
 * Also, Naming_conventions_%28common_names%29 points toward 24 Hours of Daytona as being the most common used name to describe the race, and thus it follows naming conventions.
 * And my claim of 3RR was over confusion over who had originally changed the article title to Rolex 24 at Daytona.
 * If a vote would be satisfactory in convincing one way or another, so be it. The359 07:35, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
 * WSPR can hardly be considered authoritative as to what is or is not the most common name. However, they clearly list the official name of the race - and each time from 1993 on, it has been "Rolex 24 At Daytona." There is no general consensus - 3 to 2 is hardly consensus. Shall we move the Capital One Bowl back to Citrus Bowl? Shall we move Outback Bowl to Hall of Fame Bowl just because we don't like sponsors in names? Preposterous. FCYTravis 07:41, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
 * If WSPR can be used as an arguement about an "official title," then it is just as valid for a "common title." Each race from 1993 to now lists it as "24 h Daytona."  It has nothing to do with liking or hating sponsors, it simply has to do with what I believe should be the correct title of the article, and that it the most commonlyused name throughout it's history to refer to this race. The359 07:52, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
 * You entirely missed what I'm referring to. Look at each page. The full and correct official title of each race is listed. "Annual SunBank 24 at Daytona" in 1984. The "Sunbank 24 Hours of Daytona" in 1989. Etc. FCYTravis 07:57, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Reindenting... please see NASCAR seasons for precedent. Each NASCAR race has its own sponsor-titled page, because that is the true and official title of each race. Dodge/Save Mart 350, for example. Historic names of the same race are listed separately in an infobox. It doesn't matter that I still call it The Winston (old habits die hard) - it's the mouthful NASCAR NEXTEL All-Star Challenge - with its former name listed prominently. Similarly, Aaron's 499... oh hell, just look at every page at List of current NASCAR races. If the NASCAR WikiProject people can deal with the names changing almost annually on 40-odd races a year, we can sure deal with it on maybe 10 or 15 per series per season over here in sports-car-land. FCYTravis 07:57, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Sports car racing does not tend to be as sponsorship heavy as NASCAR. Historic races like the 1000km races, 12 hour races, 24 hour races, and even Petit Le Mans have nearly always retained the actual name, with only a sponsor being added to the beginning or end ("2006 Petit Le Mans powered by Mazda CX-7").  Therefore, given the fact that nearly every other sportscar race on Wikipedia goes by the common name, I believe Daytona should as well, even though Daytona's recent name change is so drastic.  Notice also that every Formula One race goes by the common name, and not the current sponsor's name.
 * Another thing to consider is the difficulty in someone understanding or even being able to find an article about a race if the article is only using the most recent sponsor name. Take for instance the "Trofeo Filippo Caracciola."  That's the official name of the 1000km Monza for several years.  There's no way someone is going to find the right race if the page is on "Trofeo Filippo Caracciola" unless you attempt to add redirects for every single title and sponsor a race has run under, some for the past 60 odd years.  I think we should stick the the most commonly used name for something as historic in the realm of motorsports as this. The359 08:10, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
 * What's "recent" about the name change, The359? Daytona has been using sponsor names for its 24-hour race for longer than I've been alive - nearly thirty years now. Heck, they didn't even have "Daytona" in the name for a couple years. Starting in 1979, the race was the 24 Hour Pepsi Challenge... FCYTravis 08:19, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
 * There's a difference - that's not the official name in English. Hypothetically, if the official name translated to English is "Agip 1000km Monza" - then that's simple enough, isn't it? As for the redirects - let's add them. They're simple, easy and free. I've already started. Want to help, or want to bemoan the evil overcommercialization of motorsports? Last I checked, it wasn't you or I who paid for all these beautiful sports cars be they DPs or LMPs - without the commercialization, we wouldn't have professional sports car racing as we know it. Hell, sir, that barn door was opened back in the 1960s when the SCCA started letting drivers put ads on their amateur hobby sports cars. The rest, as they say, is history. FCYTravis 08:18, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
 * For the second time now, this has nothing to do with my views on sponsorship or commercilization. This has to do with my feeling over what is the proper main title to use for this page.  It is the most common one, and according to unofficial policy, which I quoted above, the most common name should be used for something.
 * Throughout all the years of sponsoring and whatnot, the common name that everyone in the racing world would easily recognize as the name of the race is "24 Hours of Daytona" or "Daytona 24 Hours" The359 08:22, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Racing Sports Cars also lists "Rolex 24 at Daytona" as the event name at "Daytona 24 Hours" as the common name. The359 08:24, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Your views on what is most common aside, the official title of the race is the Rolex 24 At Daytona. For more than half the total existence of the race, in fact, it has been officially titled something other than the "24 Hours of Daytona." You can't even agree with yourself on what the "easily recognized" name is - offering up two options for it hardly shows confidence. We can redirect everything else here. Nobody is arguing that "24 Hours of Daytona" should not redirect here. But it is not the official nor the current actual title of any race at the Daytona International Speedway, nor has it been in the last 15 years. FCYTravis 08:26, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
 * The debate between "24 Hours of Daytona" and "Daytona 24 Hours" is easier since we simply go by the conventions used for other race titles on here, all of which can equally be switched around. Regardless of whether it's 24 Hours of Daytona or Daytona 24 Hours has nothing to do with the fact that either of them is the de facto common name of the race, regardless what any current official title is, and I believe that the common title is the proper name to be used here.  And since when has Wikipedia used "official names"?  Bill Clinton is not an official name.  The359 08:29, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Google News confirms that in reliable published sources such as news reports, press releases and such (as opposed to colloquial usage), "Rolex 24 At Daytona" is used nearly twice as often as "24 Hours of Daytona." FCYTravis 08:33, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Google News would also only include news sources published since the last decade. News sources are also more likely to refer to an event by its sponsored name then its common name.  That still does not dispute the fact that the common name of the event over it's history is the 24 Hours of Daytona/Daytona 24 Hours. The359 08:37, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Hey, another milestone. You've agreed to go by the conventions used for other race titles on here. The zillions of NASCAR races all use the full name, including current sponsor. So do Champ Car races - as seen here and here and here and here too. Thank you. Battle's over. FCYTravis 08:37, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Um, no? You can't call a debate (no one called it a battle?) over.  As already pointed out, all Formula One races on Wikipedia do not include sponsors, and no other sportscar races on Wikipedia include sponsors. The359 08:45, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I was being facetious. What on Earth does F1 have to do with anything? FCYTravis 08:52, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Formula One Grand Prixs have sponsors nowadays, and no sponsor name appears in the article title for any Grand Prixs? The359 09:09, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
 * So, what? F1 is not an American racing series. I have cited several precedents for American-based racing series to use sponsor-named race titles. FCYTravis 09:15, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
 * This has nothing to do with the fact that it is American. If we're only including America then I just point to 12 Hours of Sebring and Petit Le Mans.  The point here is what is used on Wikipedia, which is the most common name.  24 Hours of Daytona, 12 Hours of Sebring, Petit Le Mans, Long Beach Grand Prix, Indianapolis 500, Daytona 500, etc.  All races with long histories and various sponsorship deals to varying degrees yet all have their simplified, most recognizable name as their titles here on Wikipedia.  Same applies to other international races, especially in the realm of sportscars. The359 10:05, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Another point to add is that a look at the Special:Whatlinkshere/Rolex 24 At Daytona, you will see how many pages on Wikipedia direct to 24 Hours of Daytona or some small variant of that, in comparison to Rolex 24 at Daytona. This seems to point to a consensus on Wikipedia about the proper title for the page. The359 00:36, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree with 359. Here's another point to consider - WP:NAME says "give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature.". If I wish to link to this article from an article from a period before 1993 - say 1989 World Sports Car championship - I either have to put an anachronism into the article by referring to the 'Rolex 24 hours' or make the link more complicated (i.e. not 'easy and second nature') by pipelining it.
 * Further ed: Furthermore, when the sponsor name next changes, all the previous links will go to redirects. It's not a good idea to rely on an increasingly complicated network of redirects to maintain connections to this page across the Wiki. Surely for the article name we should look to use a name which will remain stable. 4u1e
 * I also note that WP:NAME also says "The article title should also not be used as a precedent for the naming of any other articles. Editors are strongly discouraged from editing for the sole purpose of changing one controversial name to another. The naming convention used by the earliest contributor takes precedent. Any effort to change between names should be examined on a case-by-case basis, and discussed on talk pages before making changes. However, rather than debating controversial names, please consider other ways to improve Wikipedia." This suggests that we leave it at the original 24 hours of Daytona and move on. 4u1e 16:33, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Other American series
Let's look at other American series, shall we? As established, all NASCAR races are in full-form with sponsors. Champ Car races on Wikipedia are a mixture - half are named generically (but with the full sponsor title in the lead graph, as in Long Beach Grand Prix but Toyota Grand Prix of Long Beach in the lead. The rest are named with full sponsorship titles. IndyCar Series races are universally named with the full sponsor title in it. As an American-based series, I propose that the Grand-Am races will all follow this convention, pending, of course, getting names for the races that aren't named (Grand-Am tends to lag on that.) FCYTravis 08:42, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh, and as an aside... I had to write two redirects just to get that to work. That's pathetic. Our motor racing coverage sucks. Can we stop bickering over petty crap like this and get back to writing articles? I'll try and have Grand-Am race stubs up by the end of the week. FCYTravis 08:45, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually IndyCar Series races are not universally named. Indianapolis 500.  Important motor race with history that has had some "presented by" sponsors over the years but has an easily recognizable common name.  Champ Car does not have any races with long histories besides the Long Beach Grand Prix. The359 08:47, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
 * The Indianapolis 500 has never had a full-on title sponsor. At any rate, they don't currently have a "presented by" sponsor, so the point is moot. Your claim about Champ Car having no races with long histories is utterly ignorant. This year was the final running of Champ Car's annual race at the Milwaukee Mile, the oldest continuously operating paved oval in America. Champ Car had raced there continuously since 1980 - and predecessors, much longer ago than that. The Lexmark Indy 300 has been running since 1991. The Grand Prix of Toronto (located at Molson Grand Prix of Toronto until the sponsorship expired), since 1986. Road America, since 1982. Hardly spring chickens. You need to brush up a bit. FCYTravis 08:56, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
 * The claim was to a specific title of a race being long lasting, not a race itself. The race at the Milwaukee Mile has never had a long term, famous name like the Indianapolis 500.  Nor are the Lexmark Indy 300 and Molson Grand Prix of Toronto internationally famous races to the degree that the 24 Hours of Daytona is. The359 09:08, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
 * For more than half the existence of the Rolex 24, it's had a sponsor name. How long does Rolex have to keep the sponsorship for it to be "long-lasting" in your judgement? Twenty years? Thirty? Forty? It's already kept the sponsorship for nearly 15 - with no signs that it will be dropped anytime soon. FCYTravis 09:18, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
 * You seem to be forgetting one thing. For many years, the Daytona 24 Hours wasn't strictly an American race, it was a round of the World Sportscar Championship. In spite of having an official sponsor, it was still called "Daytona 24 Hours" when reported by media, and was entered in official FIA calendars as the Daytona 24 Hours. --Pc13 10:07, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Just adding that NASCAR has a problem that doesn't apply to most sports car racing series: some tracks have more than one round per season, so the sponsor name helps in differentiating between them. Granted, so does Grand-Am, but those rounds (Daytona 250 Miles and Watkins Glen 200 Miles) have different durations. --Pc13 10:31, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
 * It doesn't matter how long Rolex sponsors it, the race is still the 24 Hours of Daytona, regardless of how much money Rolex paid to say otherwise. It is the single most recognizable name to identify this race with due to it's long, and very important, history.  The other races you mentioned are nowhere near the international recognition that the 24 Hours of Daytona is.  The359 10:09, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I think that 24 Hours of Daytona is the correct name, because the sponsor most likely will change and many other races are named without the sponsor, for example the ones in the article (see the 24h history section). James086Talk 12:57, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Consensus
Do we have consensus yet on what to title this article? Even if we don't, this page needs extensive clean-up due to the multitude of double redirects that have been created by this mess. The359 00:58, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I would like to offer a compromise in the spirit of the Long Beach Grand Prix. To wit, the page will be located at 24 Hours of Daytona in deference to what I must admit are an overwhelming number of links to that title. The name in bold, however, will be retained as whatever the current actual race title is, for clarity and consistency. As in, The Rolex 24 at Daytona (also known as the 24 Hours of Daytona) is a 24-hour endurance race... FCYTravis 01:58, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
 * That's fine by me, the order in which the bolded title is listed doesn't matter as much to me. The359 03:47, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Makes sense. Go for it. 4u1e 08:32, 2 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Speaking of infoboxes, I added one to list the old names and other information....I tried to keep the spirit of the first sentence intact. Doctorindy 14:39, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Individual Class winners
I'm going to try and figure out the feasability of expanding the list of winners to show more than just the "Overall" winners. Since the race has for years been comprised of multiple classes, multiple winners have always been awarded. Research is ongoing, and I think it can be cleanly integrated into a new or updated table. Doctorindy 17:31, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
 * The problem is mostly in the fact that not only are there are large amount of classes that have existed over the years, but also the fact that including class winners would take up a large amount of space. Hopefully we can get some individual results pages for each year of the 24 Hours posted, like the 24 Hours of Le Mans results which have all been posted now.  That way we can at least have the class winners listed there, even if they aren't listed on the main 24 Hours of Daytona page. The359 19:46, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Indeed, as I look at the lists, I see an overwhelming number of classes over the years. I can't come up with any idea on how to cleanly sort them into a table. I think, however, the text should discuss the fact that there are several classes that comprise the race, and that each class declares a winner. Doctorindy 22:43, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Rolex24hours.gif
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BetacommandBot (talk) 19:45, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Daytona 24 and energy crisis
In 1972, due to the energy crisis, the race was shortened to 6 hours, while for 1974 the race was cancelled altogether.
 * As we can see here (1973 oil crisis), the energy crisis began in october 1973. So, are we sure the 1972 race was shortened due to this problem? Woodcote (talk) 15:20, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Longest race distance
I notice the dagger for the longest race distance has placed next to the 1970 race with 4439km. However the 1982 race is listed as 4443km. Is there a typo or does this footnote need to be shifted? Lemon martini (talk) 00:12, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

On that subject, why are distances cited in km? It is an American race, so official records and common references would almost certainly be kept in miles. Bduddy (talk) 23:18, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Be Bold and add them in miles if you feel they belong. -Drdisque (talk) 17:49, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Track Map
Sorry if this is not the right way to raise this.... The track map is wrong. For the 24 the bus stop chicane layout uses the first entry (as shown) but the exit through the middle (shown greyed out). I hope that's understandable?! Oli.meggitt (talk) 21:59, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Pontiac
Due to the demise of the Pontiac brand name, the TRG cars ran skinned as the 2009 Camaro —Preceding unsigned comment added by ChadRLarson (talk • contribs) 19:13, 1 February 2010 (UTC)