Talk:311 Boyz

General
I lived in Las Vegas from 2002-2006, and I have a pretty good memory of this story and its coverage in the local media. I rewrote this article a couple of weeks ago and I'd like to share my thoughts on it.


 * The term gang is entirely justified in the context of this article. They certainly engaged in a number of acts of collective violence and intimidation; this was not merely a party that went bad. Calling them a "group" is a bit euphemistic. The fact that the judge took them off a "gang list" does not mean they were not a gang; it just means they weren't engaged in large criminal conspiracies that other gangs commonly engage in (drugs, prostitution, etc).


 * The use of "alleged" is an attempt to whitewash. There were 5 felony convictions in the Hansen case, and other convictions in unrelated cases (the "bumfight" videos, another unrelated attack).


 * The details of the attack on Hansen are probably a little too much info for this article. The cited references (LVRJ) provide all this info in better detail; there's no point in copying it here. I'm sure all this is in the court records as well.Simishag 23:21, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Just a quick response to you...I guess that you believe everthing you read and see on t.v. huh, just because you think you know what happened you dont...I KNOW FIRST HAND the facts in this case, #1 the term GANG is a legal definition and can not be thrown around and labled on people for the fun of it.I THINK that the JUDGE probably knew more about the case than you so who are you to decide that its really a gang...THEY AS YOU CALL THEM are also young men who were not all engaged in your number of acts of violence and intimidation.THOSE WERE OTHER UNIDENTIFIED individuales,with the exception of one.So once again you dont know the FACTS, you only know what you were told by a prejudice media.Yes felony convictions did result ,that was due the the District Attorneys office overcharging these young men,with attempted murder to bypass the juvinal justice system,that way he could get 5 of the nine teens automatically certified to adult status.Due to excessive media attention and fear of a polluted jury pool most of the families were afraid to go to trial.THE JUSTICE SYSTEM IS A GAME...unfortunatly those families flinched first and took heavy felony raps for their children ages 16-18.Yes one did go to trial, and he was found to be INNOCENT OF ALL CHARGES....hhhmmmm IS THAT BECAUSE WHAT YOU READ IN THE PAPER AND SAW ON T.V. MIGHT NOT HAVE BEEN THE FACTS OF THE CASE....that night was a PARTY, those kids reacted like anyone who was drunk and saw someone run over by a truck that was speeding away would react...throw bottels,cans,yes and A ROCK...to bad the young man that threw the rock didn't think about what type of damage he might do when the rock hits an on coming vehical at 75+ mph...i guess he didn't do well in his physics class...I AM TOTALLY sorry that MR. Hansen SUFFERED SO....but maybe the driver of the truck should have used more care and not hit a parked vehical, and a human, leaving him for dead....or better yet never engaged in a verbal altercation over a girl in the first place.well i guess you dont know everthing do you.....IT was all about money,,,,and politics not justice in this case.... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.193.125.45 (talk • contribs).

What up, My name is Joseph Grill and i was one the three kids that was in the truck during the attack. I would just like to say that who ever wrote the information above is full of bull sh*t. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Special:Contributions/ (talk)


 * Most of what you say above is not cited (see WP:CITE) or at least not sufficiently cited. My edits have essentially summarized the case as reported, with the main paragraphs being a summary of the LVRJ article of 2004-08-07. You, however, have made specific claims about the case and trial that should be directly cited.
 * Your writing does not conform to a neutral point of view (see WP:NPOV), and you have made edits that clearly are intended to tone down the article (the removal of the police statement in the intro; the use of "allegedly"; replacing "gruesome injuries" with "injuries") or are in some cases obviously biased ("Thus another case of the media..." at the end). You use weasel words like "so-called". Furthermore, your editing is not of the formal tone and style expected here, and you use poor grammar and spelling.
 * I rewrote the article based on the cited sources (Review Journal & CBS Web sites), which are legit sources. They referenced other credible sources, including the Las Vegas PD.  If you want to suggest changes or amplify parts of the story, feel free, but ignoring what reliable sources have said about this case is a whitewash. I suggest you propose your changes on the talk page first.
 * And finally, I see you're bold enough to write a rambling diatribe here, but apparently not bold enough to sign your comments or use a real account. Some of your edits are clearly intended to modify the tone of the article in favor of the 311 Boyz. Perhaps you are a little too close to this story to be objective? Simishag 07:27, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Additional response to 72.193.125.45
I want to amplify my post from last night and address your comments specifically. Your words appear in bold below.


 * I KNOW FIRST HAND the facts in this case

Given the facts of this case, "first hand" means you witnessed the entire incident, and in practical terms, that leads to only one possibility: that you were part of the group of teens that chased Hansen away from the party. I think this is highly unlikely, and since you've chosen to post anonymously, there's no way to verify it. So I think you have, at best, "second hand" knowledge: what you heard at school from your friends. But, for the sake of argument, let's just say you were really there and witnessed everything. Your account would be useful as a primary source, particularly if you testified in court. However, primary sources are likely too biased to be objective; for example, I don't think Gazlay or Hansen would be accepted as editors.


 * the term GANG is a legal definition

No, it isn't. See gang. It has specific applications in a legal context, as in "gang enhancement" statutes that increase penalties. But when justified by violent actions, and when the term is used by the media, the police and witnesses, it's fair to use it here.


 * the group was removed from the gang profile (from your previous copy in the article)

This is uncited, and after a quick Google search, I can't find a reliable source for this. What's your source?


 * you dont know the FACTS, you only know what you were told by a prejudice media

So, we should accept your account of things without question? Where's your proof of media prejudice or bias? Were the LVRJ's accounts of Hansen's injuries, Gazlay's assaults, or the ensuing trials biased? How so?


 * the District Attorneys office overcharging these young men... most of the families were afraid to go to trial

In collective cases like this, with lots of defendants and witnesses, it's a common prosecutorial tactic to seek the most serious charges possible. It gives the DA leverage and forces defendants (who are sometimes the best witnesses) to consider testifying against each other. Whether this tactic is "fair" or not is a matter of opinion, and its use is not unique to this case. Also, it's not our place to provide commentary on why the pleas were accepted. The relevant fact here is that they WERE accepted. Whether a defendant is convicted by a jury or accepts a plea deal does not matter: either way, he is guilty in the eyes of the law.

Also, these were not poor families getting screwed by the system. They had good lawyers, and they knew what they were doing. IMHO, the plea deals they got were pretty sweet deals. The families knew that although they probably weren't all going to jail, someone was, and they elected to remove the risk of hard time.


 * maybe the driver of the truck should have used more care and not hit a parked vehical, and a human, leaving him for dead

Maybe the group of teens shouldn't have chased the driver back to his truck and surrounded it, leaving him with no other option to escape. Under the law, this is known as duty to retreat. The driver and his companions clearly took all reasonable measures to escape and avoid a fight. The 311 Boyz were spoiling for a fight and tried to prevent their escape. If the driver had been charged, he likely would have been able to claim self-defense. And even if you don't accept that, it is no justification for what happened next.


 * or better yet never engaged in a verbal altercation over a girl in the first place

Ah, so it's their fault. They should have known better than to tread upon the 311 Boyz' turf or mess with their girls. And you say this isn't a gang?

Anyway, I think it's pretty clear what side of this you are on. I've attempted to cover this case in an unbiased fashion using the available sources; I cannot say the same for you. Simishag 20:18, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

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