Talk:373rd (Croatian) Infantry Division

Untitled
I welcome any input into this draft article. I may create it and expand it further once it's live. Peacemaker67 (talk) 03:11, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Milhist B-class assessment
Interesting article, rated as C-class for now. I re-organised its structure a little. Just needs a little expansion to bring it up to B-class - e.g. when exactly was the division formed, the extent of its operations in 1944, and commanders. Zawed (talk) 03:33, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
 * thanks, I'll get back to work on it. Peacemaker67 (talk) 11:23, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Use of Obhođaš and Mark as a source
I believe the subject book was first published in Australia by Leaping Horseman Books, a very small Sydney-based publisher that focuses on Stalingrad and the Eastern Front. So far as I am aware, they have only published half a dozen books. While the Australian version has an isbn, it doesn't come up on Worldcat. The Croatian version appears to be published by a publisher associated with a co-author of one of Obhođaš' other Croatian-published books. According to his article on hr WP, Obhođaš appears to have a Master of Science degree. In summary, although the source is only being used to source the award of an Iron Cross to the senior Croat officer in the division, I doubt this source meets WP:SCHOLARSHIP, and the editorial oversight of the book (in Australia at least) can only be considered WP:QUESTIONABLE. On that basis I have deleted the reference to the Iron Cross (which is a fringe topic as far as the division is concerned), and the source. Regards, Peacemaker67 (send... over) 04:09, 18 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Obhođaš is employed at the Croatian State Archives and has a masters degree in history (I believe you have misinterpreted the concept of magistar znanosti. There are only two types of Masters degrees in Croatia: znanosti and struka. History would fall into znanosti, which although translating to "science", refers to it in a more general sense. His Masters thesis was the Land Force of the NDH on the Eastern Front: 1941-1943, completed under the supervision of Slavko Goldstein.). The Croatian version is published by Despot Infinitus, a new publishing house specialized in historical works. This company is run by Zvonimir Despot, who is a coauthor of their two new books on the Ustasha Militia (surprisingly, the first books on this topic in 70 years). These are also coauthored by Serbian historian dr. sc. Bojan Dimitrijević if you have any doubts on their legitimacy. The former book has been one of the best-selling books in Croatia the past year, if not the best-selling historical work.


 * As far as the book being a reliable source, it appears you are being hasty. Reliance on Tomasevich and the like for topics on which they had minimal access to archival resources is silly. Tomasevich was almost wholly limited to the socialist and emigrant literature of the time, as well as the seized German war records available in microfilm at the National Archives. Only modern domestic historians are publishing works based on what is now available in the Croatian, Serbian and Russian state archives. In this particular case, the war diary of the 369. Regiment was discovered, with Croatian Home Guard records fleshing out the command and personnel history of the unit, and Wehrmacht and Red Army records fleshing out the operational history. As far as the Iron Cross reference goes, it is very relevant. The NDH had an issue from its foundation with a lack of trained officers. After the destruction of the 369. Regiment, a significant number of well-trained and experienced officers was lost which left the NDH incapable of providing the officer cadre for the new legionnaire units, and the Germans somewhat wary of trusting Croat officers given defections in the Home Guard. Of course Major Bakarec, having served alongside the Wehrmacht on the Eastern Front and being the first Croat awarded an Iron Cross, was not the only senior Croat officer in this division by accident.


 * Furthermore, this article is mostly based on a 1962 work by Franz Schraml. A search of Schraml gives no info on his credentials, except for the fact that Kriegsschauplatz Kroatien was his only published work. It was published by a house called Vowinckel which appears to have been variously categorized as right wing to far right, and whose authors were largely veterans rather than historians. Schraml's book is almost certainly a poorer scholarly work than that by Obhođaš and Mark based on the above, although I personally do not have access to it at this time.--Thewanderer (talk) 13:26, 18 August 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry, I will have to object to the GA status of this article given my comments on Schraml above. It appears that there have not been enough checks and balances in the assessment of some of these Operation Bora articles.--Thewanderer (talk) 13:31, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
 * The book in Croatian has no isbn or oclc that can be located on Worldcat or Google Books. That rings alarm bells for me. The only hit one can get is on the Australian published English version, and I have explained my objection to it on the grounds of the publisher. If you think I am wrong, feel free to take it to WP:RSN and we can discuss it there in front of the community. Likewise Schraml or Tomasevich. That is the appropriate course of action. Regards, Peacemaker67 (send... over) 01:55, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Just some more observations regarding the book in question. According to BIBLIOGRAFIJA KNJIGA POVIJESNE TEMATIKE OBJAVLJENIH U REPUBLICI HRVATSKOJ, which provides the following citation:
 * MARK, Jason D. (2012). Hrvatska legija - 369. pojačana (hrvatska) pješačka pukovnija u borbama na Istočnom bojištu 1941.-1943. Preveo Amir Obhođaš. Zagreb; Donja Lomnica: Despot Infinitus; Grafika Markulin.
 * the author is shown as Mark, not Obhođaš, who is listed as the translator. When you look at Google Books for Mark, you find that all four of the books credited to him as author are self-published or published by the aforesaid "Leaping Horseman Books". That is, they are all effectively self-published, as Mark owns "Leaping Horseman Books". Nothing against the guy, but this looks like a WP:SELFPUBLISHed book, which may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the subject matter, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications. I haven't been able to find any reference to Mark being an established expert on the Croatian Legion, or him having previously been published by a reliable third-party publication. Obhođaš is just the translator, not the author, so his academic qualifications are essentially irrelevant. The Croatian version is a translation of the English one self-published in Australia by Mark. As I say, if you want to discuss Schraml, go right ahead and start a thread here or at WP:RSN, it is cited in numerous academic books, and has been republished by other publishers as recently as 1993 (including in Croatian). Regards, Peacemaker67 (send... over) 05:22, 19 August 2013 (UTC)


 * The isbn is 978-953-7892-00-5. The book is obviously co-written by Obhođaš and Mark as you can see from any reference to the original English-language book or the Croatian publisher's website. Look at the cover of either edition please if you won't believe me :) In addition to being coauthor, Obhođaš also translated the work into Croatian. They both have forewords to the original, in which Mark's states "this book is an extended edition based on his [Obhođaš's] masters work" (pg 10, translated from the Croatian edition, but available in both). This master's work is the one I previously referenced above. He has also published the first ever work on the Light Transport Brigade, which also originated from the master's work.
 * I wouldn't argue the fact that it hasn't been cited by a third-party publication. It's only two years old! It's essentially impossible for him to have been cited in any English language texts yet - Obhođaš has only been in academics since 2010.
 * As for Schraml, stating that he has been "republished by other publishers as recently as 1993 (including in Croatian)" is rather misleading, no? As far as I can see, the Croatian translation is the only time he has been republished. And even then, it was by one Brkić i sin (Brkić and Son), a publisher I have never heard of. It is cited by numerous sources because it is essentially the only work wholly on the matter, so despite its shortcomings I have no problem with using it. I fail to see how the Obhođaš and Mark work is any inferior, especially since it is the most professional and thorough work ever done on its subject. Basing your opposition to it on some anecdotal evidence (Obhođaš's credentials and his role as co-author, both of which were incorrect) is not fair to the work.--Thewanderer (talk) 02:10, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
 * The isbn doesn't come up on Worldcat per this, which is a concern. When I search for the isbn on Google Books, the only hit is a Croatian site that says it was published by Mark in 2010, but is now published in Croatian translation in 2012, here. I'm trying to get to the central point about whether the book is self-published. Even if it was a joint effort in the original English (which is still unclear to me given the sources vary), it appears it was first self-published (by Mark) in 2010 in Australia. Regardless of who republished it in Croatian in Croatia (apparently someone who has effectively self-published other books with Obhođaš), the original 2010 text was self-published, and as such falls under the WP:SPS policy. It would be preferable if we kept this thread about the Obhođaš and Mark text, if you want to discuss Schraml please start another thread so we can discuss it on its own merits with all this to-ing and fro-ing. Regards, Peacemaker67 (send... over) 07:26, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

2nd Lika Brigade
Gorran, can you clarify if the 2nd Lika Brigade resisted all the German units of the corps, or particularly elements of this division. A Partisan brigade resisting an entire German corps seems extremely unlikely. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (send... over) 01:46, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
 * The 2nd Lika Brigade fought the Kampfgruppe Willam (Rgt. 384) attacking from the village of Srb towards Drvar.--Gorran (talk) 07:14, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I'll correct this.--Gorran (talk) 07:19, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

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