Talk:41st Infantry Division (United States)

41st Brigade
Really should be a separate article if as the infobox says the Division was officially deactivated in 1965.Awotter (talk) 02:23, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Comments on added material
"In July the division moved by rail to Rockhampton, Queensland.[14] The division had arrived in Australia with a reputation as "the top ranking National Guard division and one of the three top divisions in the whole Army", a reason for its early shipment. However, the 41st Infantry Division had never conducted manoeuvres with live ammunition and many men had not even fired their own weapons. A training inspection found: 'The body of instruction is identical with that given in the U. S. The manner of execution showed little comprehension of the realities of warfare. Regimental, battalion and junior commands think that they are doing a good job. In spite of the vigorous representations of the division commander and his staff, coupled with a substantial number of changes of command, unit commanders are convinced that they are preparing their units for war. This for the simple reason that they apparently have only the vaguest conception of the realities of combat.'" '''

This material is certainly open to dispute from even a cursory web search of available reliable sources. If possible could you please post the appropriate quoted page(s) in full with the references (and individual quoted) that asserted this opinion so this can be addressed, since it mainly appears to be a personal opinion at considerable odds with other sources. ''In early 1941 Ike (Eisenhower) was selected as the 3rd Infantry Division Chief of Staff. On March 4, 1941, he was promoted to Colonel, a great moment for him. At the time, career officer promotions came so slowly that tremendous accomplishment came with achieving that rank. He then assumed the Chief of Staff position in IX Corps, which was responsible for the defense of the entire Pacific coast. Believing that America would become involved in the war, Ike took his duties very seriously. Observing the two divisions then training at Fort Lewis, the 3rd Infantry Division and 41st Infantry Division, he found serious shortcomings in the later (sic). '''A number of the officers lacked the necessary skills and leadership qualities. They would be replaced and many of deficiencies corrected by the time Colonel Eisenhower left for Fort Sam Houston, Texas, in June 1941.' ''The 186th Infantry was particularly noted for its sharpshooters. At one time, its Company "B" then located in Portland, had nine individuals who wore the Army's Distinguished Marksman Medal for Rifle. As a results of its marksmanship achievements, it was the first National Guard Regiment in the United States to receive in 1938 the then new M-1 rifle.
 * Fort Lewis in World War II
 * Global Security article 41st Division

''As the international situation worsened in the 1930's, the intensity and urgency of training in the 41st Division increased. In 1937, the Division paired with the US 3rd Division for Corps Maneuvers at Fort Lewis. The 1940 summer camp at Fort Lewis witnessed the Division training with maneuvers at regimental level. One month after annual training in 1940, the 41st Division, along with the 249th Coast Artillery and State Headquarters, was called to active service. '''During the 14 months prior to the beginning of the World War II, the Division underwent intensive combat-type training and was equipped with the latest, most modern equipment available. By December 7, 1941, the 41st Division was ready.' ''When the 41st Infantry Division was called to active duty on 16 September 1940 it was still configured as a square division with two brigades of four infantry regiments, of which one was the 161st Infantry. Initially ordered to Camp Murray, Washington on 20 September 1940, the Division was transferred to Fort Lewis, Washington on 20 March 1941. Between 5 June and 2 July 1941 the 41st participated in the IX Corps maneuvers at Hunter Leggett Military Reservation, California. Returning to Washington State, the Division next participated in the Fourth Army maneuvers at Fort Lewis from 15 through 30 August 1940.''
 * http://www.25thida.com/161stinf.html#Before%20WWII 25th Infantry Division Association]

The comment in the footnote said that the division was the fourth division to proceed overseas, rather than the first, as alleged in the second source you mention: Source: Matloff and Snell, pp. 394-395
 * 34th Infantry Division received Overseas Orders 31 December 1941, sailed from New York Port of Embarkation 15 January 1942 and arrived Northern Island 26 January 1942 with the last units completing movement on 15 May 1942.
 * Task Force 6814 (which became the Americal Division) received Overseas Orders 14 January 1942, sailed from New York Port of Embarkation 22 January 1942 and arrived New Caledonia 12 March 1942 with the last units completing movement on 23 April 1942.
 * 27th Infantry Division received Overseas Orders 27 December 1941, sailed from San Francisco Port of Embarkation 10 March 1942 and arrived Hawaii 15 March 1942 with the last units completing movement on 17 April 1942.
 * 41st Infantry Division received Overseas Orders 16 February 1942, sailed from San Francisco Port of Embarkation 19 March 1942 and arrived Australia 7 April 1942 with the last units completing movement on 15 May 1942.
 * 32nd Infantry Division received Overseas Orders 28 March 1942, sailed from San Francisco Port of Embarkation 22 April 1942 and arrived Australia 14 May 1942 with the last units completing movement on 14 May 1942.
 * 5th Infantry Division received Overseas Orders 5 March 1942, sailed from New York Port of Embarkation 30 April 1942 and arrived Iceland 11 May 1942 with the last units completing movement on 11 May 1942.

And yes, the Hawaiian Department was indeed considered "overseas" by the War Department in 1942.

The web sources you cite are written in the upbeat US Army style to which I am accustomed, and allowance has to be made for this, as it can be misleading. (I suppose you might call it POV.) The division did not carry out "intensive combat-type training" as this might be understood by the modern reader; and while it was "equipped with the latest, most modern equipment available", this still left the division with long lists of deficiencies that had to be corrected in Australia. The removal of officers as a remedy for deficiencies was part of the US Army's way of doing things. Rounds of removals would follow each combat cycle.

As per the Wikipedia rules, I will be using books rather than Websites. The quote comes from Shortal, p. 17 as per the footnote. Shortal, Luuvas, and Milner are all in agreement on this matter. (I have also read through a great many of the primary documents.) General Eichelberger says: "In Washington I had read General MacArthur's estimates of his two infantry divisions, and those reports and our own inspections had convinced my staff that the American troops were in no sense ready for jungle warfare". (Eichelberger, p. 11) However, the Shortal quote is particularly revealing as it also goes to the heart of Fuller's problems at Salamaua, and for which he would ultimately be relieved at Biak.

The reality is that being ready to proceed overseas was not the same thing as being ready to face the Japanese or Germans. The 34th, 27th, and 32nd Divisions in particular missed out on much of the training and "shake up" that other divisions received and got off to rough starts from which their reputations never really recovered. The 41st may have been better; it was certainly luckier. But divisions were urgently needed overseas in 1942, and these National Guard divisions were the best ones available. This trade off had to be accepted.

If you would like to write the Zamboanga section for me, this would be much appreciated. :D

Hawkeye7 (talk) 22:04, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

SS Tuscania
I can find zero evidence that the 41st Division was on the SS Tuscania when it was sunk. Every other source seems to indicate it was the 32nd Division that suffered the most casualties from that tragic event.

Now, that's not to say there might have been a few men assigned to the division that were on the ship when it went down. But in the outstanding book "The History of the A.E.F." by Captain Shipley Thomas, he states that the 41st Division had finished arriving in France on 7 December 1917.

I will wait a few days to see if someone comes up with any evidence the 41st Division was involved in the Tuscania sinking, and if not I'm deleting the reference to it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MrStiv (talk • contribs) 19:10, 24 July 2018 (UTC)