Talk:45th Infantry Division (United States)

Note
I forgot to login and performed a few edits under IP 67.118.17.3. &mdash; FJ | Talk  18:03, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Korean War
There is nothing here on the Korean War. Only two National Guard Divisions were called up for Korea and the 45th was one. The other was the 40th from California. This needs to be described and references. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.81.151.62 (talk) 05:21, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Source for war crimes claim?
Hello, 217.82.36.172. Please provide a source for your May 1 claims:


 * In Sicily the division committed some of the worst war crimes of the allied forces, murdering hundreds of German and Italian prisoners of war.
 * and
 * ...on April 29, 1945...murdering 520 of their surrendered German and Hungarian guards.
 * ...on April 29, 1945...murdering 520 of their surrendered German and Hungarian guards.
 * ...on April 29, 1945...murdering 520 of their surrendered German and Hungarian guards.

Here's a comparison of edits. &mdash; FJ | hello  16:24, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

(Later) I went ahead and removed the first claim and edited the second claim to highlight its allegation status. The only source I have for the claim of 520 Waffen-SS soldiers who were allegedly killed at Dachau does not insist on the accuracy of the figure or indeed of the events. I think this is probably justification for adding a special section to this article devoted to all of this. There is quite a lot of detail on this site for example but I am not sure where they got their information. &mdash; FJ | hello  12:15, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

I have edited this whole section to link to the relevant Wiki pages. There is no need to get into detailed discussion of this here, it is more efficient to discuss it on the page focussed on the crime. Andreas 10:22, 27 February 2006 (UTC)


 * "Day of Battle" by R. Atkinson has a detailed describtion of the three POW killings during the first days of the invasion of Sicily and the cover-up that followed.Markus Becker02 13:07, 7 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I've found a reliable source for one of this division's massacres. This is from Antony Beevor's "The Second World War", pages 597-8:
 * "...both Bradley and Patton faced a potential scandal. In Bradley's 45th Infantry Division, a National Guard formation which Patton had encouraged before the invasion to make itself known as the 'killer division', a sergeant and a captain massacred more than seventy unarmed prisoners. Patton's initial reaction was that the murdered soldiers should be described as snipers or as prisoners shot while attempting to escape. The military authorities decided to hush up the whole affair on the grounds that the Germans might take reprisals against Allied prisoners."

Source
"Dachau, Hour of the Avenger" by Howard Buechner (who was a medical officer of the division in question). Also I've understood that the official U.S. Army documents about the happenings are no longer classified.
 * Buechner makes this claim, but I would like to see what he bases it on, since it is at odds with the other descriptions of the event. The original US Army Report does not give a number of casualties. Andreas 10:10, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

There were no gas chambers at Dachau. A sign was erected post liberation for a propaganda photoshoot, but all authorities concur that there were no homicidal chambers at this campGaptech (talk) 19:23, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Removal of Swastika insignia
There is no reason to remove the insignia, unless it is historically not correct. It was the official shoulder patch prior to 1939, and as such should be shown. Before attempting to remove it again, please outline the reasons for the edit here. Andreas 15:41, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

This image is incorrect. The 45th division swastika was left-facing, the mirror of the right-facing nazi swastika. I do not know how to fix this but the image is definitely incorrect. 18 July 2010

Dubious
Neither Mark Clark nor Raymond S. McLain ever commanded the 45th Infantry Division. Clark was the Fifth Army commander, which was the senior command for the 45th ID, but Clark never commanded the division itself.

Raymond S. McLain was the 45th DivArty Commander, but never the Division Commander. (GregJackP (talk) 23:05, 7 February 2010 (UTC))

Dated 18/02/2010.

I was disgusted when I realised that this Division is still in existence even after the massacre at Dachau. The American were always quick to criticise the The UK about how we tried to stop IRA terrorists funded by collections on American streets. I was in The Corps of Royal Marines and proud to serve in an honourable Corps. What really sickened me was SS Fighting Troops were killed, they had nothing to do with the camp, and they were very very brave MEN and Great Fighters there's no denying that, not like the cowards who shot them. When everybody said the guards deserved it, put yourself in their position, if you don't guard that CAMP, you and your relatives are next in the ovens !!!, what would you do, yes protest and do it. No I am afraid the only shoulder Flash I would put on the Division is a Large White Feather.

Ex 42 Commando RM —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lochee785 (talk • contribs) 00:44, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

The Waffen-SS were political soldiers, special fanatical volunteers not even part of the regular Wehrmacht army, and no, the Nazis did not put Germans in the crematoria, so the Waffen-SS didn't have to worry about THAT.

Swastika (a different explanation)
Although I think it was clearly an Indian badge, there is a different explanation for the Swastika: before becoming the 'Thunderbird Division', the Oklahoma National Guard's original nickname was 'Sooner Soldiers'. The swastika was a stylized SS (the short for 'Sooner Soldiers', nothing to do with the Nazi SS). A 'Sooner' was a white settler from Oklahoma, that was an Indian territory until c.1900. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.8.98.118 (talk) 12:35, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

The 45th division swastika was left-facing, the mirror of the right-facing nazi swastika. I do not know how to fix this but the image is definitely incorrect. The left-facing swastika also looks less like two S's.

If you look online everything shows a right facing swastika, including the 45ths museums webpage. Also for sources that say that the swastika was a native american symbol we can look at the swastika wikipedia page and see this source at the bottom "Dottie Indyke. "The History of an Ancient Human Symbol." April 4, 2005. originally from The Wingspread Collector's Guide to Santa Fe, Taos and Albuquerque, Volume 15." http://www.collectorsguide.com/fa/fa086.shtml which itself includes 3 sources. Sorry I don't know how to add sources but there it is. 70.184.254.248 (talk) 23:20, 13 October 2010 (UTC)Tulsa

Fixed the Swastika directions to match the definitions used in main Swastika article. 208.115.153.106 (talk) 04:23, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

1950 Reorganization
Currently, the article states: "During this time the division was also reorganized and as a part of this process the 157th Infantry was removed from the division's order of battle and replaced with the 279th Infantry Regiment.[89]"  The cite is Varhola's Fire and Ice, history of the Korean War. Either Varhola has this wrong, or the reference has been misunderstood (I don't have a copy of this book to check). The reorganization that replaced the 157th with the 279th occurred in 1946. This is supported by the Lineage and Honors of each regiment, reproduced on the respective regiments' pages: 157th & 279th RTO Trainer (talk) 01:13, 10 July 2012 (UTC)