Talk:4Minutes Left

Merger proposal
I propose merging the articles Heart to Heart (4Minute song) and Mirror Mirror (4Minute song) into this one, 4Minutes Left. This article especially, which should be the best developed of them all, is almost empty, and most songs should not have their own articles per WP:SONGS. So let's put all the info in one article and improve the article that way. Shinyang-i (talk) 20:40, 14 February 2015 (UTC)


 * Merge "Mirror Mirror" only. Heart to Heart has been released as its own single that was almost considered a mini-album. -AngusWOOF (talk) 01:03, 16 February 2015 (UTC)


 * The problem is these song articles don't merit their own articles. Most of the time, they have to get merged somewhere - to an album, to the artist, or just outright deleted.  A song has to have had significant coverage in secondary reliable sources that talk about the song as an actual work, discussing the song composition, its significant impact on society, something beyond a list of dates, what shows it was promoted on, and its chart positions.  Few songs meet that criteria, especially in kpop and especially for new songs, for which no time has lapsed in order to evaluate societal impacts.  Most kpop songs are very ephemeral, very "here today, gone tomorrow".  Even for kpop songs that might actually be notable, there is still nearly always a lack of information to put in an article, meaning that they still don't merit an article.  I can't see what in "Heart to Heart" is worthy of it being its own article. :( Shinyang-i (talk) 19:19, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Agree, the problem is most songs don't need a separate article. Albums don't always need an article, per WP:NALBUMS. For example, Best of 4Minute has little information besides a tracklisting and release history for the singles. None of 4Minutes's Japanese singles look notable, and the articles are very short. --Random86 (talk) 01:20, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
 * A few of the Japanese singles have charted on Oricon, so it would meet notability for that criterion. Also, the Japanese releases use a different marketing scheme, relying on Singles and Albums, in comparison to the Korean release which uses EPs that they call "mini-albums" and where singles are not released independently. They just all flood the Gaon chart at once. The Japanese version can be merged to the appropriate Japanese album article should being in the top 20 of Oricon not be enough. -AngusWOOF (talk) 20:45, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Actually, charting alone does not make a song notable enough for its own article. WP:NSONG also states, "Notability aside, a standalone article is only appropriate when there is enough material to warrant a reasonably detailed article; articles unlikely ever to grow beyond stubs should be merged to articles about an artist or album." If all the article has is release history, tracklisting, etc. I don't think that is enough (and that applies to albums too). --Random86 (talk) 20:51, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Exactly. Most songs do not merit articles because most songs to not inspire significant discussion in secondary independent reliable sources.  Charting is just one sign a song may be notable.  Marketing is just one aspect of a song and because of the way kpop strings promotions out into many little units (mini-albums, maxi-singles, etc), few of which can attain notability, it becomes hard to accommodate the marketing scheme in articles on Wikipedia.  One thing that would be really helpful is for you, AngusWOOF, as someone knowledgeable about 4minute, is to go through and improve the articles after merging, to make sure things like that are clear. Shinyang-i (talk) 01:16, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I've noticed it mainly for how 4Minute (or perhaps Cube Entertainment) has been doing things, but how to structure that into the articles would need some help on that especially so that it doesn't become OR. -AngusWOOF (talk) 01:58, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
 * , I finished these merges, so take a look and see if you think it all makes sense, particularly the part about the "Heart to Heart" digital single. Also, all the chart and sales stuff on many 4Minute articles need correct sourcing, as they all went to now-defunct "4Minute" searches at Gaon or just general Gaon pages.  Could you help with that? :)  Shinyang-i (talk) 20:24, 12 April 2015 (UTC)