Talk:9th Ward of New Orleans

Untitled
I have lived in the New Orleans 9Th ward until the dredful day Hurricane Katrina ran mostly everyone out of the city and I can definitely say that the Ninth Ward begins at Franklin Ave. which starts at the Mississippi River and ends at Pontchatrain Lake (this portion of the lake was and still is considered to be the Black Side of the lake!). Therefore any land that exists between Franklin Ave. and the edge of the city is considered to be The Ninth Ward or Da Nine. Of course once you cross the industrail canal it is called The Lower Ninth Ward or the Lower Nine. Adjacent to that is Chalmette which isnt New Orleans anymore. The New Orleans East is considered to be the Ninth Ward as well though the area is commonly called The East.The area around Michoud Blvd. in New Orleans East is called Michoud but once you pass that area you are in East Over which is the last section of the city before you get to Slidell, La. However the other small sections such as the Irish Channel, and the areas near Bayou Savage Wildlife Refuge is just another part of the East and therefore it's considered to be the Ninth Ward! By the way I really did enjoy reading this article about my hometown.


 * The western boundary for most of the ward is Almonaster, but not near the river, because there is a split where Almonaster becomes Franklin. So south of the split, the boundary is Franklin, but north of the split, the boundary is Almonaster, then People’s. This is most clear on the district D city council map found here: http://www.nocitycouncil.com/maps/NOCCDistrictD.pdf It’s a pdf file. I enlarged it to 175% so that I could clearly make out the boundaries. The 9th ward is anything with 9-X (the second number is the precinct, the first is the ward). Essentially, the wikipedia article is entirely correct. The Nutrias.org was the original source used to create the wikipedia article, but it was not sufficient by itself for the reasons we have run into. My hunch is that there have been some name changes in some of these streets, while the ward boundaries have remained the same since 1880.Wbbigtymer 06:45, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

In the aftermath of hurricane Katrina does anybody have current pictures of the 9th ward area especially the Lakeland Terrace area? Could you post a link? Reason: to check of possible flooding of homes of family and friends.

I realise this place is in the news, but lots of places have a 9th ward. Could we move this to "9th ward of (wherever it is a 9th ward of)"? DJ Clayworth 18:19, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

Here is a link to pictures taken of a house in Lakeland Terrace, near the corner of Warren Drive and Pressburg Street, on Sept 17; flooding was about 2 to 3 feet in the houses and 5 to 6 feet in the streets. www.zavadil.com/katrina/warren.htm To see the aerial pictures of the flooding on August 31 of the same area goto http://www.zavadil.com/katrina/katrina.htm and scroll down about 2/3 of the way down

I support change to "Ninth Ward of New Orleans"
I support specifying the city, however you'd be EXTREMELY hard-pressed to make a case that the use of "the 9th ward" isn't almost exclusively associated with the 9th ward of new orleans, even before it dominated the news for over a month. This page, by the way, was created well in advance of the hurricane and no one complained that there are other "9th wards" then.

Expansions
I expanded the article some, I hope appropriately. Some points: Almonaster does not go to the Lake, would it be correct to say that the upper boundry continues along People's Avenue to the lake, as the linked old map shows, or has it been changed? Also, from the article is it correct to assume that the Ninth Ward includes all of Orleans east of the Industrial Canal, including Fort Pike, Lake Catherine area, etc? -- Infrogmation 02:05, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

wow......some substantial improvements. Thanks so much and also thanks for pointing that out the hot boys issue...I've made an attempt to clarify that.

As for the map and most recent boundaries of the area, I believe it would be correct to say that the entire New Orleans East area is indeed the 9th ward. I personally choose think that the it doesn't necessarily include all of New Orleans East, but loosely speaking, I'd say it includes the area east of the industrial canal running from the chef highway area to the lake, including major streets like Downman, Morrison, and Hayne BLVD, but probably no further east than Read, or MAYBE Bullard.I think the final verdict on the 9th ward territory ought to be the map, because it is unambiguous except that it doesn't go as far east as it probably should. No territorial changes in Ward Bounderies have been made since 1880, so the map is as up-to-date as it gets.Wbbigtymer 10:27, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Boundries
I reworded the description of the boundries, especially to the west, in accordance with the map. It was correct that Franklin Avenue is the seection towards the River. We still need to define the eastern boundry, which is off the limit of the linked map, and I couldn't find anything better in a quick search. As I havn't heard anything otherwise, I'm assuming that the Ninth Ward, as a political divisision of the city, continues east eto encompas that vast area of Orleans Parish to the Rigolets and Lake Borgne. If so, that should go in the article. Wikipedia needs something on the neglected part of Orleans ususually "off the edge of the map", like Lake Catherine, Eden Isles, Irish Bayou, Fort Pike, etc. If theses aren't part of the 9th Ward, we need to determine what ward they're in to include them there. If they're legally within the boundries of the 9th Ward but not part of what most people mean when they say "the Ninth Ward", that should be mentioned in the article too. -- Infrogmation 13:13, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Franklin avenue extends all the way to the lake and runs through the 8th ward (if I’m not mistaken…it could be the 7th) so that’s why I was thinking you meant the lake. I apologize for making that incorrect assumption. It makes sense that People’s Ave. would be the northern part of the western boundary, but how do you know that? I just want to make sure it is correct, because I don’t know one way or the other. I’ll certainly agree that it can’t be Almonaster Blvd, because it turns into Almonaster Ave. and goes almost completely east. Franklin Ave. is less ambiguous because Almonaster does clearly turn into Franklin between N. Claiborne and N. Robertson Streets.

My current understanding is that all of Orleans parish east of the areas we know to be the ninth ward are also within the 9th ward. There are only 17 wards in the city--the same 17 wards since the last territorial change was made in 1880, so I'd have to include them in the legal definition of the ward. As far as the cultural or folk definition of the 9th ward, it gets much less clear and we enter a huge grey area. I would caution against making a "folk boundary" for where the ward ends to the east, because it would be arbitrary at best. As it is, there is enough confusion about what the 9th ward actually is due to faulty media coverage and existing misconceptions. Wbbigtymer 03:59, 6 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I really need figure out how to make some detailed public domain maps of New Orleans neghiborhoods. --Kunzite 09:33, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

"bad link"
whoever added http://nutrias.org/~nopl/facts/wards.htm as a bad link (on the bad link page) needs to add themselves to the bad editor page... Seriously what is wrong with it? It's among the most credible of sources this article (or most of this nature) have used. Wbbigtymer 03:05, 21 December 2005 (UTC)


 * New Orleans Library servers were down because of Katrina. That's why it was likely taken out. --Kunzite 09:33, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

City of Lafayette
I removed the material about the anexation of the City of Lafayette, because that was part of what is now Uptown New Orleans. I don't understand the relevence to the Ninth Ward; I think it was around what is now the 10th or 11th Ward. -- Infrogmation 04:43, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Ah, IIRC Lafayette Cemetary on Washington Avenue got its name from that former juristiction, so that should place it in the 11th. -- Infrogmation 04:45, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Since we have re-started this discussion here, I will paste what other may miss from before:

The paragraph I included in the history section of the 9th Ward page was a concise, relevant explanation of how the 9th Ward as we know it today came to be. It is not clear from the sources I've seen that the territory wasn't already part of Orleans before 1857, but it is 100% clear that it was not formerly designated as part of the 9th ward. The annexation of Lafayette directly caused the boundary changes that caused the re-zoning of the 9th Ward--hence the present-day boundaries. With the little history information currently on the page, I would think the relevance off that paragraph needs little defending. In any event, I will hold of on re-adding it myself out of courtesy. Wbbigtymer 04:32, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

P.S. I am primarily using the familiar N.O. public library fact finder webpage as my source: http://nutrias.org/~nopl/facts/wards.htm


 * I think you are mistaken about what ward the former city of Lafayette which was absorbed into New Orleans was, but let's take detailed discussion to Talk:Ninth Ward of New Orleans where anyone else interested in the subject can comment as well. Cheers, -- Infrogmation 04:39, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Now for the new stuff…

I concede that the city of Lafayette itself is entirely separate from the 9th Ward geographically--that is not the point of the paragraph. The point was this: In 1852 when the city of Lafayette was annexed by New Orleans, many wards' boundaries changed in some way or another and wards 8, 9, 10, and 11 were created. So if you were to say that the paragraph is no more relevant to a 9th Ward page than a page about the history of any other territory, you would probably be correct, but that still doesn't mean it isn't relevant. I'm also not implying that the current 9th Ward territory was acquired in 1852 or that it was directly related to the annexations of other territories. I still maintain that because the annexation was the direct cause of a "9th Ward" (in name) at all--as it was of an 8th, 10, and 11th--that it is relevant and, quite frankly, interesting. Just to be clear, it was not my aim to specify what ward (in current terms) the former city was actually in. My language actually was that it occupied more than one ward, which could very well be erroneous.

Below is the paragraph in question for any who may be interested or have something to add to the discussion:

"The territory was officially defined in 1852 when a large portion of Jefferson Parish called the city of Lafayette (not to be confused with the current city of Lafayette, Louisiana in acadiana), which included several wards, became part of the newly unified city of New Orleans."

Wbbigtymer 20:39, 19 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks. I think its becoming apparent that we need a Wards of New Orleans article. The anexation of Lafayette may have prompted redrawing ward boundries city wide, but the wording as it was before seemed to me to imply that this was something that happened within the 9th Ward. Cheers, -- Infrogmation 02:09, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Wards of New Orleans
I've made a start on a Wards of New Orleans article and some other wards. Help is very welcome. -- Infrogmation 17:54, 24 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I removed the link to the map of ward boundaries from this article, as I thought it more relevent to the Wards of New Orleans article. -- Infrogmation 15:52, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Eastern New Orleans
I'm thinking of spinning off an article for the portion of the city east of the Industrial Canal and north of MRGO. I was thinking "Eastern New Orleans" as the best title, as that seems the most common designation I've been hearing. However as I'm not from that part of town I wanted to see if there were other suggestions first. I note that Wikipedia has a few red links at present directed to "Orleans East". -- Infrogmation 15:45, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes, this is the largest segment of the 9th Ward and is called "New Orleans East" or "Eastern New Orleans." I've lived there for years, but there is uncertainty as to how much of it will be officially endorsed by the city's rebuilding officials. There is a great deal of talk of making much of the east "green space", which is especially controversial, considering the vast residential space in this part of the city, the fact that this segment of the city is one of the most affluent (believe it or not...the average income is higher than that of the rest of the city's...Eastover and several other neighborhoods boast exclusive estates that are home to some of the city's richest and most celebrated...think "new money"), and the fact that this part of the city is mostly black. Wbbigtymer 03:27, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

CORRECTION? I found the inclusion of New Orleans East in the 9th Ward section surprising and confusing. Although New Orleans East may technically fall within the boundaries of the old municipal region as depicted on the old ward maps, the area wasn't developed until decades after Wards ceased to have any official use. I would NEVER have thought of or referred to New Orleans East as part of the 9th Ward, nor have I ever heard anyone else do so. The inclusion of New Orleans East strikes me as at odds with actual usage of the term (though I welcome input from any locals who have counter-examples). I would suggest that the New Orleans East section be removed from this page. A link to a separate article about the East would be sufficient. - D.V.O.


 * The New Orleans wards designaitons have not "ceased to have any official use", as you can see by looking at any Orleans Parish voter registration card. -- Infrogmation 00:01, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough, but I still think it's a valid point. Wards today primarily function less as an official entity and more as an cultural designator of certain neighborhoods. Referring to New Orleans East as the 9th Ward is at odds with any usage I've ever heard. In any conversation I've ever been a participant in, "9th ward" has always referred to the older parts of the city, closer to the river extending from Franklin/Almonaster down to the St. Bernard Parish Line. - D.V.O.


 * I concede that New Orleans East as a whole has its own identity (and even a different character, for that matter) that sort of sets it apart from the rest of the 9th Ward, but when you look at specific areas and boundaries, it is hard to completely separate it. New Orleans East is a very big area, and it would be a misnomer to call it a neighborhood, since it includes many neighborhoods. Some of these neighborhoods share more similarities with the upper & lower parts of the ward than others. Sure, bywater and the lower 9 are usually what people mean when they say "the 9th ward", but keep in mind, it's starts to get difficult to absolutely distinguish it from the chef menteur & downman rd. area, for example, which is unquestionably within New Orleans East, yet retains a lot of the character of and proximity to the areas just south of it that everyone identifies as the 9th Ward, like Louisa St. and the Desire neighborhood. These areas share the zip code 70126, which also extends north nearly, if not all the way, to the lake. It is basically understood and accepted in Folk terms that neighborhoods in proximity to the Industrial Canal are considered part of the 9th Ward, even north of the Florida Avenue Canal. Growing up in this area, I have often observed people making an association there with the 9th Ward. It definitely isn’t even uncommon for residents of New Orleans East as far out as Bullard and beyond to identify with their ward. Having said all that, it shouldn't be removed from the article under any circumstances, because unless the city decides to make the first change in ward boundaries since the 19th century, the fact is that N.O.E. is part of the ward.Wbbigtymer 08:17, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

city council districts
The comments about the upper and lower 9th wards being split between city council districts D and E, respectively, were in error. The upper 9th ward is split between two districts itself. Part of it is in district D and part of it is in district C, which is mostly comprised of the West Bank (15th Ward). New Orleans East is also split between two districts (D and E), and while district E lies entirely within the 9th ward, district D also includes parts of other wards, such as wards 7 and 8. Here is a map of city council districts: http://www.nocitycouncil.com/content/districtMaps/NOCC%20All%20Districts.pdf and here is a website that links to maps of individual districts: http://www.nocitycouncil.com/content/districtmaps.htm. Having made all of this clear, I am holding off putting it in the article until I have a chance to do so in a more formal manner. If anyone has a chance to beat me to it, so be it. Wbbigtymer 00:07, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Post Katrina comparisons ramble
I'm feeling the comparison with Lakeview should be reworded, though I'm not sure how. Despite being one of the richest neighborhoods in the city, it's still one of the worst messes-- there are a tiny handful of houses that owners optimistically fixed up early out of their own pockets, but they still stick out lonely in block after block after block of ruin. Lakeview may bounce back strong in the future, but at present I've seen a hell of a lot more progress in more severely damaged and poorer places like Chalmette. There have been a scattering of restaurants and stores open in Eastern NO and the Upper 9th for months; the first in Lakeview just opened up-- po-boys, lunch only. Hell, one has been able to get a tank of gas in the Lower 9th for a couple months now, and still can't in Lakeview. BTW, having watched things since the city reopened, parts of the Upper 9th and the East look to me to be on curves up similar to Broadmoor and Mid City but a couple months later. Village de L'Est was one of the first places anywhere east of the Industrial Canal I saw with startling progress, though now they're up in arms about the administration's putting a landfill next to them, which some think is an attempt at deliberate sabatoge. I've actually been hearing folks from East NO make a number of suggestions of conspiracy to stiffle the recovery of the East -- people are rebuilding their homes and reopening business, but the city won't give them regular garbage pick up, fire or police protection. Pardon my rambling; this has been on my mind. We ought to do some updates of area recoveries. -- Infrogmation 20:45, 4 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I would echo many of the things you've pointed out. I guess when I wrote that, the talking points from the mayoral debates were still fresh in my mind, and dogma about concentrating the city's footprint "from the 17th street canal to the Industrial Canal" was the prevailing plan. Obviously, this would exclude the vast majority of the 9th Ward in any serious reconstruction/city planning effort. It is indeed true that New Orleans East has seemingly not gotten a fair shake in utilities restoration and cleanup. The Lower 9th Ward has certainly benefited from charities and private efforts, while many don't realize the larger area that makes up Eastern New Orleans is almost as bad off, and has no one making a sweeping effort to bring it back, as of yet. (a la Common Grounds)  The reference to Lakeview was merely pointing out the attention given to that area by officials and politicians in comparison to the areas east of the Industrial Canal. I agree that it should be reworded. I still like the sentence that states "Approaching the one-year mark since the hurricane, the ward comprises the vast majority of hurricane-ravaged territory still devoid of noticeable improvement or substantial rebuilding efforts", because I don't think this is disputable. As for how we can more carefully deal with the analysis of why this is, I agree it was rather careless to make a point at the expense of the Lakeview neighborhood. I will be thinking about this, and I will comment as soon as I have some more thoughts. Wbbigtymer 08:41, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Brian "Baby" Williams and Lil' Wayne
The article is incorrect when listing these two artists as 9th ward natives. Neither are from the 9th ward. Brian "Baby" Williams is from the 3rd Ward. Lil' Wayne is from the Hollygrove neighborhood in the 17th Ward (aka Carrollton).

I removed only Lil' Wayne from the main article. I could not find a solid source of Baby's origin. In all of his songs he claims he is from Valence St. in the 3rd Ward. Hopefully someone can come across a reliable source in print to verify my claim.

Sources: Wikipedia, Cash Money Records Official Site, Wayne's myspace page, and dozens of lyrics from both artists. MrDerrick 18:31, 3 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I am sorry, but it is clear that there is a misunderstanding here. The article doesn't claim that either of them were born or raised in the 9th Ward. In fact, they've been known to live in this ward at one time or another (and may move back, but that is irrelevant speculation). Baby still owns a house in Eastover and lil wayne was known to live with him for years, though I'm not sure if he actually owns property there.Wbbigtymer 09:48, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

I removed Lil' Wayne from the list of celebrities from the Ninth Ward. In 2007's DJ Khaled hit entitled "Brown Paper Bag," Wayne begins his verse rapping, "I represent the 17th Ward of New Orleans."

census data
I have found an article that includes census data & some analysis for the lower 9th ward. Of course, it would probably be more appropriate in the lower 9th ward article, but it can definitely be used as a source in both articles. Here's the link: http://www.dollarsandsense.org/archives/2006/0306wagneredwards.html. Wbbigtymer 07:14, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

1700s unto the 1850s
Why does the article not speak about the 18th century buildings that once existed in this ward of the city of New Orleans? What about the dozens of plantations, other Mansions, Catholics schools, & etc. What about the 1850s architecture that still exist? This article needs more info. --Margrave1206 22:49, 29 December 2006 (UTC)


 * You're correct that the article needs more info. Feel free to suggest source material that can be used for this, and I'll be happy to take a look and help to expand it.Wbbigtymer 15:17, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Hurricane Katrina POV
Parts of the Hurricane Katrine section, most especially the last paragraph, read as an endorsement of a particular effort to rebuild the Ninth Ward. Though this may be a virtuous undertaking, Wikipedia guidelines demand that articles be " neither sympathetic nor in opposition to its subject." Statements like "Make it Right. Rebuild." are clearly sympathetic to the cause of rebuilding the Ninth Ward and I propose that they be removed. It may yet be appropriate to move some of the information about this rebuilding effort to its own article section, with the NPOV material removed, of course. Yock (talk) 19:04, 23 April 2009 (UTC)


 * The "Make it Right. Rebuild" paragraph added by User:Lhammond indeed was advocating readers take particular actions, not appropriate to NPOV "just the facts" practices, and has therefore been removed. -- Infrogmation (talk) 19:22, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

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