Talk:A-flat minor

Pop songs
Isn't the listing of non-notated pop songs on this page problematic, seeing as how in all but the most extreme cases (Scriabinian madness or chains of modulations with accidentals preserved), equal-tempered pieces based on this pitch in minor are considered G#m instead? I will delate/move the songs soon if nobody can produce a score for them that explicitly shows them to be in A-flat minor. Amber388 18:35, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
 * The Janacek explicitly uses 7 flats and concludes on A-flat minor chords, seems sufficient to me, but more to the point, that it is described- when given a key at all, as "in A flat minor" is basically sufficient (as with Chopin's Bolero "in C", Mahler's 7th "in E minor", and other works whose keys are more a matter, perhaps, of habitual description than actual agreement with the rules of key and mode association.) Similarly with Dimitrie Cuclin's symphony no. 11 in A flat minor- haven't seen the score, don't know if it uses 7 flats (the finale is in A flat major, just as Myaskovsky's 17th symphony in G-sharp minor uses an Aflat major finale) but the composer's own description of the 11th (Cuclin) is A flat minor, or at least that's what's on the score... Schissel | Sound the Note! 05:37, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Very good. No argument from me on any of these.  I was merely asserting that the pop songs that had previously been listed on this page were incorrectly identified.  Carry on. Amber388 16:15, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
 * First, I don't think use of this key necessarily represents "Scriabinian" madness. (Scriabin in fact never wrote any passage in a seven-flat key signature.)  And use of a seven-flat key could actually be superior to the corresponding five-sharp one if the harmonies or modulations involved chromatic notes that were more often raised than lowered, so it is not necessarily madness (of any kind) to use such a key.  (There is a passage in The Poem of Ecstasy in A-flat minor (with no key signature in use, all notated with accidentals); but it is quite chromatic, and if the passage were recast into G-sharp minor there would have been thickets of double-sharps at times.)
 * Do we know for sure that all the pop songs were never notated? Many pop songs are published in some form, and wouldn't session musicians at least, if not the primary pop group, be performing from notated parts?  It would be good if someone who has access to any printed material for these songs could confirm whether they are notated in G-sharp minor or A-flat minor - rather preferable, if possible, to just a wholesale deletion of the entire list.
 * It is vaguely possible that a few pop songs may be in such extreme flat keys. Good Vibrations by the Beach Boys begins in the key of E-flat minor, and its refrain moves through various Mixolydian modes, including G-flat, A-flat, and B-flat.  Later, the music goes through less extreme flat keys such as B-flat major and F major.  This is a clear case where the notation for a pop song (if it wasn't transposed to the simpler key of E minor) would be best placed in the flat enharmonic notation rather than the sharp.  Otherwise the music would modulate to keys as distant as E-sharp major, and actually involve B#7 chords (i.e., C7). M.J.E. (talk) 07:33, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

I think The Knife by Genesis is mostly in A-flat minor - it modulates between this (verses, middle section and guitar solo) and C minor (choruses and ending), since both are keys containing flats, but I can't find any immediate citations for this. Does anybody else have any? Ritchie333 (talk) 16:07, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Just another point about Janacek, if it matters: his Violin Sonata actually uses 5, then 6 flats - never 7 - and its tonality seems somewhat fluid (see the score at http://imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/2/26/IMSLP00564-Janacek_-_Violin_Sonata.pdf); but it looks close enough to A-flat minor to me to be a piece "in" this key. The key signature doesn't necessarily mean everything, because composers do sometimes use the wrong one.
 * Indeed, this sonata ends in G-sharp minor with a 5-sharp signature, although the composer uses key notation very strangely towards the end: he reverts to flat notation even while keeping the sharp key signature - then the piece ends with the piano notated in G-sharp minor and the violin notated in A-flat minor - with the 5-sharp key signature retained in both parts to the end.
 * But yes, the sonata, with a few liberties, is in A-flat minor. M.J.E. (talk) 06:25, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Image links
30-May-2007: In 2006/2007, Wikipedia images required both attributes "thumb|250px" to show a caption, as in:

By itself, size "250px" ignores the caption "My picture" (confusing many people), which is considered bad form in computer languages (should warn & be corrected rather than ignore). Just remember to include "thumb" (or "frame") for a caption in an image-link.

Image hints in 2007: Overall, omitting "thumb" is the most common problem.
 * Limit most images to "thumb|300px" to avoid crowded text-wrapping.
 * A small image followed directly by a big image often chops text.
 * To resize larger than the original ("oversizing"), omit "thumb" (oversized images cannot have captions in 2007, yet).
 * Beware "left|thumb" (for "right|"), because left-side images appear immediately to left of the text.
 * Most images (99.99%) should be quick JPEG for rapid display.
 * Avoid resizing PNG images (2007): might become 10x larger resized.

There are many formatting issues in the Wiki software (used worldwide), with a long list of problems to fix, but in the software world, errors often persist, only to be upstaged by a totally radical new software version, rather than just fixing the irritating problems fast. Note that numerous software systems (not just Wiki) have frustrating issues for years. -Wikid77 16:41, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Reasons for removing reference to list of Chopin's works
In attempting to correctly format references I've just added, I removed the reference http://www.gressus.se/chopin/works/index.html (List of Chopin's works sorted by opus). It seemed to be messing up the formatting, and I found that it has no useful information to add to this article anyway: it does not state the Etude, op. 25, no. 1 to be in A-flat minor (one of the wrong examples I've just removed from the article), but states it correctly to be in A-flat major. It *does* state the Waltz, op. 42 to be in A-flat minor, but this is wrong: it is in A-flat major. Other than these, it cites nothing at all to be in this key, so it is not relevant to the article. M.J.E. (talk) 13:38, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Was it proper to remove section?
I was just wondering why the comments I added earlier under the "Popular Culture" heading were removed. (They can be seen here: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=A-flat_minor&oldid=262299675 .) I am considering whether to reinstate them or not, since they very clearly refer to the subject of this article, even if in a rather unusual way.

The editor who did it gave no reason for it, and they did so anonymously, and their editing history indicates them to be very new to editing. (I question the other deletion they made too, although with slightly more doubt.)

Before I undo what they did (which I am tempted to do now), could someone please give an opinion about whether the deletion was just that editor's opinion, or solidly justified because the comment I added was obviously inappropriate?

Thanks. M.J.E. (talk) 14:29, 21 January 2009 (UTC)