Talk:A21 road (England)/Archive 1

Roads joined
Why are the "roads joined" in numerical order, rather than the order that the road actually crosses them? The latter would be a lot more useful! Halsteadk (talk) 19:18, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree there seems to be cases such as this on other road articles with numerical order instead of the order the road actually crosses them. FM (talk) 11:52, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Superfluous headings
I could see no reason for having all those sub-headings in this article. The road is relatively short, and to break them up in that way served little purpose, particularly since some of them - Mountfield is a good example - had nothing in the one sentence that followed to do with the heading! It also has a heading Tunbridge Wells: the A21 has never in its history since 1926 gone through Tunbridge Wells, and the new bypass doesn't bypass it: it ended further north. If you feel that is essential, then why not try two parts - the section after the bypass has a different feel than the first?

I also have the following comments and have amended the article accordingly:
 * At the beginning the article says "through traffic uses the A20 all the way to the M25 - it might well do so - but we are not talking about TRAFFIC, but the A21.
 * The section near Kippings Cross is a spur taking the traffic to the M25
 * The A21 doesn't OVERLAP with the M25 it temporarily disappears, and the M25 doesn't "have to turn off on a sliproad" - it is the A21 that leaves it by another spur - unusually on the right. One should always use a map and not what it looks like on the road itself!
 * What is "negating": the traffic on the A21 negotiates all the roads in order to escape London
 * "Here you get your first roundabout" - articles should be written in a formal style (see here

Finally I have a plea. Why don't you Kentem have a talk page like all of us? You are creating a great many problems - not just on this page but on many of the other 1500 editings you have done, by changing and adding to articles when there is no ;way you could be correct. I am attempting to sort out the complicated state of the Hastings article and many of that article's problems stem from your editing. Peter Shearan (talk) 15:23, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

The M25 DOES use a slip road, it then (heading anticockise) turns on to the M26 which ends there. The motorway section IS the A21 since it a. on the m25 when its about to turn off say A21 and not (A21). and later even before the motorway section ends it is marked as A21, hence it is the A21 under motorway regulations rather than a road leading to the A21. also i do have a talk page(talk) Kentm (talk) 17:58, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
 * This is incorrect, the section of road that links the main M25 and the southbound A21 is still classified as the M25 by the Highways Agency (ref the HA's Pavement Management System - the definitive HA network) and the Ordnance Survey (ref MasterMap Integrated Transport Network dataset - although the HA's classification is definitive), despite the signs. The signs quote "A21" to distinguish from which side of the branch to follow to continue on the M25 - this is vital as this is the one place on the M25 where you have to take a slip road to continue on it. If it was the A21 under motorway regulations, it would be the "A21(M)", and it is most certainly never classified as that. The signs probably should quote "(A21)" strictly speaking, but regardless of that you're still on the M25 for this section. Halsteadk (talk) 18:50, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

also all the external links seem to say so as well


 * Kippings Cross is the roundabout south of pembury
 * which is nowhere near the M25,
 * Do you mean the section at junction four before the A21 dissappears and runs concurrent
 * with the m25 and then regains it again after the m25 uses a slip road and the A25 junction? FM (talk) 14:09, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Primary Destinations?
Why isn't Tonbridge a primary destination. It is at the junction with the A21/A26 FM (talk) 17:43, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Primary Destinations, as a defined term, are specified by the Local Transport Note 1/94 published by the Department of Transport. I don't know why it wasn't included, but as far as I am aware, this has been the only officially-published document listing Primary Destinations in the UK.  If you are aware of any other official guidance, please amend the article List of primary destinations on the United Kingdom road network and provide reference to that source.  —  MapsMan  [  talk  |  cont  ] — 08:47, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

All other sources i have found list Tunbridge Wells as a pd kentm (talk) 20:54, 2 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Just to clear up. Sevenoaks is not that close to Tonbridge. kentm (talk) 14:03, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks - what sources are they? — MapsMan  [  talk  |  cont  ] — 10:12, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
 * All road atlas ive seen also its obvious that

At least one of the places (Tonbridge and Tunbridge Wells) since Tonbridge is at the A21/A26 and a lot of traffic goes to Tunbridge Wells which is is often the cause of congestion in that area. kentm (talk) 16:27, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Kentem, could you please sign your posts with your username, not an alternative name. You are giving the impression that you're masking your identity. Halsteadk (talk) 18:56, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Links to HA site
st I have swapped and sorted them, They both work now. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Freakmighty (talk • contribs) 14:51, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Sevenoaks and Tonbridge
Have added the copyedit template to this section as it is hard to understand, seems to be factually incorrect in places or contain own research masquerading as facts, and some sentences are not complete sentences. I drive this road every day and I hardly recognise it! I'll probably pop back and tidy it up myself when I get a moment if no-one beats me to it. Halsteadk (talk) 19:03, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
 * and I have actually changed this to say Badgers Mt to Pembury since this is actually the area it covers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.105.160.254 (talk) 08:46, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Citation needed?
I notice this when it says: The kippings cross to lamberhurst section has a high accident rate, The Reference iss there kentm (talk) 20:09, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Move
Suggest move to Hastings Ring Road? Think outside the box 17:42, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok thats already there... Think outside the box 17:43, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The trouble with moving the article is that there is no Hastings Ring Road. Nuttah (talk) 17:47, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I just realized that! Should this be a speedy then if its completely fake? Think outside the box 17:52, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

There is, there is signs and this route follows that (though it is not complete). look on a map and you will see, it is kind of semi-circular. thats why the article should NOT be deleted.User:Kentem (talk) 20:48, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Do you have some sources for this or a picture of the sign? I've looked and I see what you could mean google map link, but unless someone can provide a source stating that is specifically called Hastings ring road, the content is already covered by A2100, A28, A259 and A21. Think outside the box 12:05, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
 * [[Image:Ringroadseafront.jpg|200px]]User:Kentem (talk) 09:10, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Why does this redirect to A21. The ring road is the A2100 and those two B roads FM [ talk to me  |  show contributions  ]  16:14, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Oakhurst
After various edits I decided to bring this up here: The village of Oakhurst does appear on map's including OS, Philips and the AA. Therefore the reference should be kept although maybe with a reference to the A225/B245. Any Comments? FM [ talk to me  |  show contributions  ]  18:17, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * The problem is that although it is shown on most maps, it is NOT a "village", along with an awful lot of other names on maps. Note that the typeface on the OS maps is much smaller than for Hildenborough or Sevenoaks Weald, which are both villages. Being a very local resident of many years I can assure you of this, and I would guess that most people would not have even heard of it. It is a handful of houses and a truck garage on a crossroads, not even enough to warrant a drop in speed limit on the B245. It does not appear on any signs, therefore would be unrecognisable for anyone on the A21 (and is practically unnoticeable as a settlement along the B245) - it is a "hamlet" at best. Some respect for local knowledge would benefit this article, rather than just a blind survey of OS maps. It would be preferable to be more specific, ie rather than the "junction near Oakhurst" why not say the "junction with the A225/B245" - that will also solve this dispute. In terms of major signposted settlements, the "junction south of Sevenoaks" or "junction north of Hildenborough" would be more appropriate. Halsteadk (talk) 17:46, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Although I see where your coming from, The standard on a road article is to put the name of the nearest settlement. As I have mentioned already, why not say "Junction with the A225/B245 near Oakhurst"? That would solve the dispute and name both the roads and nearest settlement. FM [ talk to me  |  show contributions  ]  18:02, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
 * The reason for not mentioning such an insignificant "settlement" is that readers will need to have an OS 1:50k or 1:25k map in front of them to cross-refer to Oakhurst. Oakhurst is not mentioned on road signs, there is no "welcome to Oakhurst" sign or anything else. Some maps such as Google Maps don't mention it at all - although G Maps is hardly authoritative compared with the OS it does suggest that it is not significant, and OS doesn't show it at 1:250,000. It is not helpful to mention such an insignificant place. The "junction with the A225/B245 between Sevenoaks and Tonbridge" would be far more appropriate. Bearing in mind the distance between junctions on the A21 this is a more appropriate "scale" - if there was a junction near Oakhurst, another at Stocks Green, another at Haysden etc, then mentioning smaller places would then be more appropriate and necessary.  Alternatively "...near Sevenoaks Weald" would be reasonable as that is the nearest settlement that is significant enough to be shown on all maps (and it's signposted from the junction). Halsteadk (talk) 13:13, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
 * It isn't just on OS, as I said, it is also on the Philips and, sometimes, AA maps of the UK. However Oakhurst and Sevenoaks Weald are both a similar distance from each other, so since Sevenoaks Weald is the larger settlement (and, of course, shown on the signs) it is good to keep it at that. FM [ talk to me  |  show contributions  ]  17:06, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Agreed, Sevenoaks Weald is fine. Cheers, Halsteadk (talk) 20:01, 22 November 2008 (UTC)