Talk:ABDL


 * This page was nominated for deletion. Votes for deletion/ABDL.  The result was redirect to Infantilism.no

What is the purpose of this page?
It seems to me that this page is a FAQ for people interested in taking part in AB/DL play - not an encyclopedia entry about AB/DL play. NPOV folks. Elde 09:34, 15 May 2005 (UTC)


 * I challange you to actually prove this is not NPOV. --OrbitOne 11:45, 15 May 2005 (UTC)


 * I would argue that it is very neutral in tone. The perspective may come from persons who engage in ABDL play, but from different angles with different interpretations of it. There are, in several points, at least two points of view: One user has described things from the POV of a 'daddy', the other from the POV of an AB. There will of course be many others. But hey, it's a start ;)

-- Dave 10:32, 14 June 2005 (UTC)

The picture
I shortened it a little bit. It is best to keep thanks very short and keep the information very informative.

ABDL Content In Other Pages

 * I have made changes to several pages with ABDL content. (See link to my contributions at end of signature.) This content is not appropiate to these page as it introduces a POV element to these article.
 * To use an example, imagine I insert a section on "Albino Alligators" into Alligator article. The content could be completely NPOV: "Albino alligators can grow over 10' long" and "albino alligator eggs can be found in Louisiana". However, in the absence of qualifiers this would give the casual reader an incorrect impression.
 * Refer to Jimbo Wales, September 2003 for his views. Also note there is no value judgement intended or implied.
 * brenneman (t) (c) 12:04, 13 July 2005 (UTC)


 * I disagree. Albino alligators are mythological. Despite the predjudices faced by the fetish community, I assure you that the ABDL community is not mythological. Dave 12:24, 13 July 2005 (UTC)


 * Dave,
 * I am not debating the existence of this community, simply its relevance to the above pages. The evidence I have suggests that this community is very small. If you can demonstrate to me otherwise, please do so.
 * Additionally, while it is hardly pertinent, please see this and this in addition to the link above as to the existance of albino alligators. Note that I am not saying that they exist simply because I have seen one (although I have). I am citing a reference.
 * In courtesy,
 * brenneman (t) (c) 12:52, 13 July 2005 (UTC)


 * The community uses the items described in the pages. That's the relevance. Dangling babies doesn't have much to do with a diaper. A person with a diaper fetish has alot to do with a diaper. The size of the community is irrelevant. I challenge you to show me why it would be.  Finally, you're comparison of the ABDL community to a sideshow attraction is hardly courteous. Dave 22:30, 13 July 2005 (UTC)


 * Davy Blue,
 * I apologise that offense was given by the "albino alligator" illustration. It was chosen at random. It could as easily been "Cucumis sativus variety sikkimensis" inserted into cucumber and changing the words roughly cylindrical to spherical or cylindrical.
 * The size of the community is deeply relevant. Please see Wikipedia, Encyclopedia, What Wikipedia is not, and Neutral point of view.
 * I am not trying to be nasty, or censor your ideas, or disparage your community. I am trying to make you understand the boundries and expected behavior in this community.  Please explain at clearly as possible: What purpose does it serve to have these entries?
 * Finally, I've again altered the wording on the diaper page to something neutral. I believe that that should be removed, however I suggest that in the interim we agree on some middle ground.
 * brenneman (t) (c) 00:42, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

Show me where underrepresenting a minority, or deleting all references to it is considered NPOV. Let's talk about acceptable behaviour. Is it acceptable for you to delete references to a minority simply because it's easier than to do the same for the majority? Perhaps you should delete references to ethnic minorities while you're at it. Or religious ones. Explain to me again how the size of the community justifies you're actions? Sure, I'll agree on neutral ground. I won't mischaracterize your community as an 'albino alligator' or a freakshow if you don't do the same to mine. Sound fair? I believe some folks consider that to be civility. Incidentally, are you on some sort of crusade? Please justify why these listings are so offensive to you. Dave 02:19, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

Dave To compare the adult baby community to an ethnic community is a obvious straw man, and as such I will not address it. The relevance of the size of the community goes to it's encyclopedic value, and true representations thereof. Please review the arguments I've presented above, follow the links provided to relevant discussions and guidelines, and generally calm down. There is no value judgement here. I'll use yet another example: if someone made an article entry for the "Northern Idaho Potato Haters Club" and linked it to the potato article, it would be deleted as not relevant to the potato as a whole entity. You'll notice I've made a large number of changes to articles in this area, please review the reasoning I've provided in each instance. brenneman (t) (c) 04:30, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Recent Changes
This material has been moved from the main page to here:
 * Image:Todalersleeper.jpg.jpg|thumb|Todaler wearing a blanket sleeper|200px|right|A good example of AB sleep wear, a blanket sleeper. Thanks goes to Todaler todaler@yahoo.com


 * What if my baby doesn't want to listen to me and be a good AB?
 * This can be as stressfull as having a real baby or more so; but this could also be a sign the baby wishes to have another activity; spanking is very intimate as well as it puts the trust from your AB into your hands (pun not intended) and lets them be more submissive. Even if your AB doesnt want a spanking, try it any ways if they are stepping out of line.


 * It should however be remembered that in many cases infantilism occurs in persons who were in childhood subject to physical or emotional abuse. Therefore, it is best to ask the AB person before making the assumption that physical punishments such as spanking would be pleasurable for that person. Such punishments may in fact be very unpleasant.


 * The human mind is very creative, Parents have throughout the millenia used a variety of means to discipline their wayward children. If your AB does not enjoy corporal punishment, try making them stand in the corner, send them to bed early or simply raise your voice.


 * Playing with your AB can be quite fulfilling for both you and your AB. Simply playing around with blocks spelling words can mean the world to your AB. Holding your AB and feeding them is also a good activity as it strengthens the bond between an AB and a partner. Reading your AB a story and putting them down to sleep or take a nap is also a very fulfilling activity. Games such as patty-cake and peek-a-boo, nursery rhymes and tickle or pillow fights are also highly suggested.

All of this is POV and/or How-To, and thus non-encyclopedic. brenneman (t) (c) 04:48, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

You know what? So far I've seen a whole lot of Aaron Brennerman requesting this page be deleted, and trying to pare it down gradually into near non-existence, deleting links to it from other pages, etc etc. but almost no one excpet myself trying to save this page from this man's attempts to get rid of it. I'm not getting into an ego contest with anyone. But unless someone else is willing to show that they want to keep the page here, well, I guess I'm not going to bother with it. Go ahead, Aaron. Trash the thing. Dave 21:41, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

I just saw what is going on myself. Aron, back off, this is a multiple point of veiw entry and what has been said is fact. This page was opened to cut down on the size of the infantilism article and this page contains psychological information. What has been said bcan be compared to "being burned is painfull".


 * There is nothing "going on" here. Have a look at my edits and you'll see that there is no "crusade", just desire for NPOV. And the line "Even if your AB doesnt want a spanking, try it any ways if they are stepping out of line" is clearly POV.


 * It's "Aaron", by the way. And signing your edits (use ~ ) is polite. Like this -> brenneman (t) (c)  01:39, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Then re-word it. Look, I don't really care how your name is spelled. You've shown little respect for my community, so I have even less respect for you personally. And, even if I did, it's all beside the point. This isn't about you. Or is it?Dave 02:28, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Honestly, your attitude though has been a bit out of line, I do not know why though, nor do I care. Being offensive does bias my reaction to the subject of NPOV, but you started out by deleting sections -WITHOUT- coming to the talk page and pointing out the sections. Just saying it is not NPOV is not enough, please support what you say or you will not likely be believed or considered. Yes, you do have a point, but the article about ABDL is supposed to give practical information. I will delete part of the article though so you will be happy. --OrbitOne 11:36, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

brenneman (t) (c) 00:38, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Please give a specific example of where I have been offensive. And I'd refer you to WP:CIV with regards to "Aron [sic], back off" and "I have even less respect for you".  I'd also ask you to examine the edit history: I moved the sections to the talk page, noted that in my edit summary, and opened discussion on that material.

How to offend an AB
Start off by saying this. "I am not debating the existence of this community, simply its relevance to the above pages. The evidence I have suggests that this community is very small." Suggest that the size of the AB community does not justify its acknowledgment on wikipedia.

Then start deleting parts of the wikipedia entrys without enough good reasons.

Lastly, start discounting websites which are the only havens for ABDL on the internet, citing them as unreliable sources.

--OrbitOne 09:53, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Respect/disrespect
Respecting your entries becomes difficult as you show less and less respect for our knowledge of ABDL. If you wish to command ANY respect and be listened to on this page, then you should start posting your arguments for deleting single sections. That does not mean just saying something is not relevent and leaving it at that, it means giving exact arguments as to why it is not relevent to this article.

--OrbitOne 09:54, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Playing with your AB can be quite fulfilling for both you and your AB. Simply playing around with blocks spelling words can mean the world to your AB. Holding your AB and feeding them is also a good activity as it strengthens the bond between an AB and a partner. Reading your AB a story and putting them down to sleep or take a nap is also a very fulfilling activity. Games such as patty-cake and peek-a-boo, nursery rhymes and tickle or pillow fights are also highly suggested. It appears that your desire is to have Wikipedia serve your needs, and the needs of your community, not the reverse. I am unhappy with by your attitude, your agression, your apparent disregard for the conventions and practices of Wikipedia. I propose that we take this to either Village pump (miscellaneous) or Requests for comment. brenneman (t) (c) 01:33, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
 * I see you've used the "you know nothing about this topic, so back off" method before to good effect in Talk:Infantilism. This is not working and playing well with others.  I have been, at every juncture, polite and patient. Please, first read WP:NPOV.  Then let us examine this passage:
 * 1) The use of the phrase "your AB" is POV. Is presumes that the reader of this page has a partner who wishes to be an "Adult Baby".
 * 2) The phrase "can mean the world" is advocacy not reporting.
 * 3) The phrase "a good activity" is an opinion, not a fact.
 * Etc, etc.

No, actually, you are the first person to actually point out -any- sentence that isnt NPOV and I agree with you. What has pissed me off though are users attack the page due to their beliefe that ABDL is sick so I have become over protective. Thankyou for pointing out the POV sentences in the article. (Unsigned comment by 80.62.170.94. - brenneman <sup style="color:#2f4f4f;">(t) <sup style="color:#2f4f4f;">(c)  13:17, 27 July 2005 (UTC))

Redirected to Infantilism
Corrected double re-direct. - brenneman <sup style="color:#2f4f4f;">(t) <sup style="color:#2f4f4f;">(c)  14:26, 15 August 2005 (UTC)