Talk:AC power plugs and sockets/Archive 1

"Three-phase in homes" comment should be clarified
The comment "US and Canada are unusual in having three-phase power commonly available in homes" needs to be clarified. "Three-phase", from which nominal 120V or 208V can be taken, is normal in commercial and institutional buildings, it is never seen in a normal house. Houses get what is normally called two-phase (though there's always a purist who'll say it's not two phases, it's two legs of one phase, or somesuch) from which nominal 120V or 240V can be taken. Some high-rise apartments are fed by three-phase, from which (as I understand it) each unit is fed two phases, giving them 120V and 208V, the latter of which is used in lieu of 240V. I'd be happy to make the appropriate edits if nobody objects... Sharkford 20:18, 2004 Sep 27 (UTC)
 * sounds fine to me. i shoudl also be noted that in much of europe houses do get three phase although it is almost never kept together beyond the initial fuse/breaker box Plugwash 22:13, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * we in the uk refer to two phase wires from a centnre tapped transformer as split phase use of the term 2 phase (except possiblly in brackets saying often incorrectly refered to as) is a bad idea as two phase does have a real definition.
 * Plugwash, thanks for catching my "neutral broader than neutral" typo, and I have been careful to describe 240 V in what I think are correct terms, though it is critical to mention the quite-ubiquitous use of "phase" for leg among laymen and specialists alike. However, is it true that metal cases were ever bonded to neutral in American appliances? I have heard of it only for kitchen ranges (cookers) during a period when they were mandated to be hard-wired, and then later when 3-wire plugs and sockets were used for them, but I've never heard a hint that a heater (electric fire) or drill or anything bearing a two-prong plug ever did that...polarization of plugs was only brought in in the '60s. Are there refs available? Sharkford 19:30, 2004 Sep 28 (UTC)
 * seen it mentined in several places National Electrical Code (U.S.) is one can't find any of the others atm Plugwash 22:16, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Congratulations
Congratulations, this was a really great article to read and was very interesting. A worthy feature article if I ever saw one! &mdash;Doogee 10:16, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * I second this. Very interesting and informative article. Good work, all contributors! Derrick Coetzee 16:47, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Decision-making time
OK, we've got to make a decision. We currently have a main article about plugs, and a couple of more specific articles about individual plugs. There are two options:


 * Create an article for every type of plug by copying and pasting content from my article into new ones.
 * Pro: Yay, the more articles the better!
 * Con: Oh no, a pile of unnecessary reduplicated content!
 * Turn those articles into mere redirects to Mains power plug.
 * Pro: Nice and tidy. Hate waste.  Keeps the info together.
 * Con: Never! Deleting articles is evil!  I sold my granny into slavery so I could work on that text!

Please discuss/vote on this. I'll then implement whatever you decide. &mdash; Chameleon My page/My talk 12:33, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * I rather like it the way it was done for UK plugs last time I looked: a couple of paragraphs here, and a link to a page covering the UK type in more detail. I like having the full list on one page, it's rather impressive. &mdash; Tarquin 16:44, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * I find it impressive too. I think it's a credit to Wikipedia.  Therefore, I'm likely to always make this page totally complete.  If you look on the BS 1363 page, you'll see there is less info about BS 1363 than here. &mdash; Chameleon My page/My talk 17:33, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Dimensions of BS4573
I'm trying to find the dimensions of standard British plugs. I found this from the specifications of a British shaver socket:


 * BS 4573: 5mm diameter pins on 16.6mm pitch

Also takes:
 * European 4mm pins on 17 to 19mm pitch (to IEC 83:1975 standard C5)
 * Australian 6.5 x 1.6 flat blades set at 30 degrees to the vertical on a nominal pitch of 13.7mm (AS C112:1964)

From Secretlondon 01:40, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * I have incorporated some of this. &mdash; Chameleon My page/My talk 11:08, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * You will not find the dimensions of the standard British plug by looking at shaver sockets. Shaver sockets do not accept the standard British plug. The standard British plug is described at: http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Book/6.3.1.htm I don't know where you will find the dimensions except by buying BS 1363. See pictures of standard British sockets at: http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Technical/DataSheets/MK/Sockets.pdf and the standard plug (product "646 WHI") at: http://www.mkelectric.co.uk/PDF/range/Plugs%20and%20Adaptors.pdf Bobblewik (talk) 11:20, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * There is a standard British shaver plug.

Error about polarity
In the description of the American type II plug, the main text says that the neutral pin is wider, while the caption on the photograph says that the live pin is wider. Please excuse me for not trying to figure out for myself which one is correct...

--216.41.45.78 15:59, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Regarding the American plug design, the text says, "the neutral pin is slightly wider at the tip in a polarised installation." But the photo caption says that the wider pin is live. I can't correct the article because I don't know which is correct, but somebody that knows something ought to fix something; otherwise, I will have to use a paper-clip to figure out which is live, and this may cause what my doctor refers to as "a mild discomfort." JeffWhitledge 16:58, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * I know the ground prong is longer for safety reasons, so as to make contact first, so I'm pretty sure the neutral is bigger for the same reason. I'll have to check when I get home. :-) Doovinator 16:20, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * I'm the one who made the changes. I talked with a coworker who is an electrician licensed in the US, and he says that the narrow pin is hot and the wide pin is neutral--Jon Kaye (gte457f AT prism DOT gatech DOT edu)


 * Good work on noticing that error, people. Chameleon 15:31, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * Thanks JeffWhitledge 16:58, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Hong Kong
Hong Kong SAR has the same plugs as Britain, but for larger appliances also still uses the round pinned 'Old British' plugs that the article attributes to India. Sockets for these plugs can be found in kitchens. I don't know how much of this is worth mentioning and where.


 * That is interesting. The 'Old British' (5 amp?) round pin plugs can still be found for lighting circuits in hotels and in some homes. If the ones in Hong Kong kitchens are also reduced current, then it might be worth mentioning as a possible parallel to the UK restrictions on sockets in wet areas. Go ahead and put the facts that you know in the article, somebody else might add the reasons later. Bobblewik (talk) 17:22, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

its usually the 5A plugs that we use here in the uk for switched lamp installs the 2A plugs aren't really supposed to be used in domestic installs because you can't get shuttered sockets in them putting a 13A socket on a lighting circuit while i can't find anything explicitly forbidding it and have done it in my own house is generally frowned opon because of the potential for abuse Plugwash

M and D
Type M and D do seem to have the same name and countries that use one do seem to use the other. M just seems to be the 15A version of D &mdash; I've seen both refered to as BS 546. Maybe they need amalgamating? Secretlondon 03:41, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * Yes, they look like the same thing to me, like the two Italian types. Dare we interfere with the letter system, though?  If we do, we should probably abandon it completely.


 * Having said that... since M is at the end, it can be added to D without disrupting the order. &mdash; Chameleon My page/My talk 03:51, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * I have amalgamated them.   &mdash; Chameleon My page/My talk 11:08, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * Type "D" is physically about half the size of type "M". They might both be defined in the same BS 546, but I don't think that's a good reason to amalgamate the two entries.  It would be sensible to list them closer together, however.  &mdash;AlanBarrett 08:05, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * I too would have preferred to move them closer, but that would interfere with the letter system too much, and I'm reluctant to do that. I put them both under D, but under different sub-sections.  Do you know exactly how big they are?    &mdash; Chameleon Main/Talk/Images 20:36, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * I can't find free on-line copies of the relevant BS or SABS standards. I did find this page at americor-usa.com which shows the dimensions of the type M plug.  I don't have any type D plugs available to measure, but I'd estimate from memory that type D pin diameters and spacing are a little more than half that of the type M.  A European 2-pin plug fits loosely into a type D socket, and usually wobbles around enough to cause arcing and poor contact.  &mdash;AlanBarrett 15:59, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Half? That would make them very small.  &mdash; Chameleon Main/Talk/Images 21:17, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * I have an example of an M type plug and its matching socket, which has a machined groove around the base of the earth pin. The switch not only connects the mains, but also activates a mechanical interlock that engages with the groove, and retains the plug until the switch is unsert. I guess this is around 1950's vintage. Is this arrangement an option under the standard above, or a manufacturers own variant?


 * No idea. Take a photo of it and upload it!  Where was it bought?  What does it attach to? Chameleon 22:20, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * all the 15A plugs i have seen in the uk (i've been vaguely involved with theatre lighting) have just had solid round pins no grooves or anything. I would guess this was some manufacturers attempt at adding an extra safety feature that didn't catch on (plugwash)

Main Page
Ah! I've just realised that the article is on the Main Page. No wonder people are suddenly editing it! Chameleon 04:04, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * Guilty as charged - I'm the one who put it up. ;) &rarr;Raul654 04:12, Sep 10, 2004 (UTC)

My flat
OK, I'm going to describe the weird situation with the leckie in my humble abode. Maybe someone can shed some light on why it is the way it is, the relevant standards, etc. I may end up posting this on es.wikipedia.org.


 * One bedroom has a socket with two 4.8mm holes (so I can get my CEE 7/16 and CEE 7/7 plugs into it).
 * One bedroom has a socket with two 4.8mm holes, plus an earth hole off to the side (Swiss-style) which I can't use.
 * The master bedroom has a socket with two 4mm holes (so it only takes CEE 7/7 plugs, necessitating adaptors for anything else)
 * The bathroom has two sockets with two 4mm holes like the master bedroom, but between them is an earth hole, as in Italy, except that my Italian plugs can't get in them with their 4mm diameter earth pins, which means that the hole must be very small. One of these sockets is in a bizarre position that I have never seen before: above the door, where many people wouldn't be able to reach it.
 * The kitchen has one such pseudo-Italian socket, plus a Schuko socket for the fridge-freezer.
 * The balcony of all places has two Schuko sockets, with the washing machine plugged into one.
 * The lounge has two sockets like the first bedroom, plus one I have never seen before. It incorporates a large, ceramic-encased fuse (unlike the glass ones used for the others).  The two main contacts are 11m &times; 2mm slits, spaced 30mm apart, with a 4.8mm earth hole just off to one side.

So, does anyone know: Chameleon 00:05, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * What apparently Swiss sockets are doing in Spain (I've seen them in two other buildings too)?
 * What pseudo-Italian sockets are doing in Spain?
 * What on earth the big socket in the lounge is?
 * The standards involved in any of this, and the dates things changed?
 * it sounds to me like you need the services of a competent local electrician. You have an install where most of the rooms do not have a usable earth furthermore the sheer variety of connections makes it seem to me like the install has been extended several times over the years by either cowboys or diyers and you have no idea whether suitablly rated cable has been used.
 * also have you tried looking for plugs in diy stores locally and if so do they sell any of the plugs for the sockets in your house that you saw but didn't recognise--Plugwash 01:19, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * I went to a hardware shop and found an adaptor that converts the large lounge socket into two CEE 7/16 receptacles. The guy said it was an old type of socket that's not used any more.  As with all non-standard plugs and sockets in Spain, he said it was "American".  In the shop there was also a very large plug with three flat prongs, which he said was "used now for ovens".  The bloke also had a plug that looked like a Schuko but perhaps twice the diameter.  He said that it was also an old type not used any more.
 * I've had a look, and I don't think the Schuko sockets in my kitchen and balcony are really connected to the earth. There probably isn't any earth connection in my flat at all, so even if I replace all the sockets with Schukos, they won't be properly wired.  Chameleon 10:39, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * from what you describe it almost certainly needs a complete rewire. Is this your own flat or a rented property? if the former then you probablly need to look into what rights tenants have. If its your own then obviously you can't pass the buck to anyone. It would seem that places like spain and italy are going through what britan went through 20 years or so ago with electrics where while new installs are wired to the standard that will become permanent older installs are a right mishmash. EU legislation requiring appliances to be sold fitted with a plug also seems to have made matters worse because of supplying with a fitted plug that will make live and neutral contact but not earth contact even though the sockets have earths.--Plugwash 12:48, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * I've fixed the wiring on two plugs that were sparking, and it seems there is no earth connection anywhere in the flat, so all I could do is connect a wire to the plumbing and then hack through the walls to lead that wire around the house to the various sockets, and change the sockets. I don't think it's worth it.  I'll just make do, and hope that new buildings are being wired a bit better!  Chameleon 17:06, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

New title
Urgh! Mintguy (T) 20:59, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * Please could we have "and" instead of "&amp;" in the page title. Apart from that, I think "Domestic AC power plugs and sockets" is a good title.  &mdash;AlanBarrett 21:11, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * I think ampersands are appropriate for titles, and "and" for text. If you disagree, however, you can change it yourself, perhaps after finding out what the consensus is.  Chameleon 12:20, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * Fully agreed, Mintguy - this new title is awful. And also wrong, as it discusses non-domestic AC power sockets too.
 * James F. (talk) 11:42, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * No it doesn't! This article has always been about household plugs.  If you catch any references to industrial plugs or sockets, move them to Industrial & multiphase power plugs & sockets. Chameleon 12:20, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * By the way, I liked the old title, but Americans whinged about the word "mains", which they didn't understand; plus I merged Electrical socket into this article and two others, so I had to add the word "socket". Chameleon 12:34, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * How about Domestic power connectors, then?
 * James F. (talk) 12:55, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * Wouldn't people think that included plugs but not sockets? Chameleon 13:07, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * the problem is there are borderline cases like the 15A bs546 (which someone seems to have unilaterally moved to industrial) whicle this is not used domestically in the uk anymore it *IS* afaict used as the main domestic socket in south africa and other coutries where we had past influence
 * the 4 pin 240V american sockets and 16A italian sockets are also borderline cases


 * Why? A "connector" is a system of two items that together connect things; a plug/socket, a ball/socket, &c., no?
 * James F. (talk) 13:38, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I suppose. OK, do whatever you want.  I've been meaning to quit Wikipedia for some time, so bye!  Just remember to fix all the links if you move anything.  Chameleon 23:38, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Please don't make the article worse
All edits to the article should make it better, not worse. I don't want to have to police it!

This was just added:

The type L21-30-P and L21-20-P are 30 Amp and 20 Amp plugs for 208Y/120V connections. These plugs connect to type L21-30-R and type L21-20-R receptacles, respectively.
 * Type L21

It was added after M in the list of families of plug types, without any info about where it might be used (which usually means it is American, given the typical mindset over there). It would also seem to be an industrial-type plug, which means it does not belong here. Chameleon 17:06, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * it appears to be an american 2 phase socket they are used for stuff like cookers and other high current home appliances Plugwash 18:26, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * sorry i looked more closely and i don't think it is the most normal of those plugs but that is the type of connection it seems to be trying to provide there is also more info with the image btw

Someone also recently added "(black)" in brackets in the box about wiring. What is that supposed to mean? Chameleon 17:06, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * black is used for second and third phases in europe (though third pase should be changeing to grey soon) and is sometimes used for the phase conductor on single phase fixed wiring

Regarding "Grounding" a Casing to the Neutral

 * ''On first sight, it might seem that one can get the same protection by connecting the casing to the neutral instead of the earth wire, but one then has the additional danger of a live case when there is a fault in the wiring of the neutral wire en route to the circuit breaker.

The big problem would the that the neutral can carry transient currents even when there is no fault in the lines. in "single phase" (common, U.S. household) wiring, there are actually two phases of 120 volts (potential to the neutral). These are 180 degrees out of phase so they almost always cancel one another out (see Alternating current for details). However, if the load is unbalanced between the two phases, the neutral carries a current back to the main panel (under the weather head). There it's tied off to ground.

I'm hesitant to modify the main article on this point, because my days as an electrician were over a decade ago and I'm a little fuzzy on some the details and proper terminology at this point.JimD 01:51, 2004 Sep 11 (UTC)

I remember hearing at one point that they tried grounding the case to the neutral in the US at one stage and that the biggest problem was people cutting off the new polarised plugs and fitting unpolarised ones to fir their existing wiring thus making the case live in 50% of cases.

At least with a separate earth connection there is minimal chance of it getting accidently connected to live even if the plug/socket combinatino doesn't give proper earthing.

Broken neutrals are also a major risk and in european countrys (with their higher voltage) combining neutral and earth has traditionally not been done at all even in the distribution network and at least in the UK isn't allowed anywhere in household wiring ancd only in the distribution system under special conditions.

The final problem with combining neutral and earth is rcds (or gfis as you americans call them) will be rendered basically useless.

To put it simply (this is a British point of view people in the US are less paranoid about electrical safety) combined neutral and earth in a distribution network is fine provided reasonable precautions are taken (multiple earthing of the neutral core on the main and concentric cable for brances)

Combined neutral and earth in building wiring is workable but to do it safely would require use of cable types that would make it not worth it and would interfere with the installations of rcds (gfis to us readers)

Combined neutral and earth in the unpredictable situation of portable appliances is just asking for trouble.

Further notes.

Manufacturers of electrical appliances make a major design decison early. They can either rely on the earth connection to provide protection for exposed metalwork, or they adopt a "double insulated" design, such that no reasonable fault will connect the exposed metalwork to the supply. The majority of portable electrical appliances in the UK now adopt this approach. See the box in box logo on mobile appliances...

In the single insulated approach, the primary function of the earth connection is to take out the supply fuse if the insulation between the external metalwork and the supply has been compromised.

In general a break in the live or neutral connection will not present a hazard, simply render the appliance non functional. A break in the earth connection to a singly insulated appliance that is not otherwise compromised presents no major hazard directly, though induced voltage in the metalwork may be detectable by touch in some circumstances.

A short on the live side of the load is the most obvious hazard, since it presents a low impedance path from the supply to anyone in contact with the exposed metalwork. Provided the earth is intact, in this case the fault current will take out the fuse via the earth path, making all safe.

A more subtle fault is a short to the metalwork on the neutral side of the load. Nothing dramatic happens.

Even subsequent failure of the neutral core will have no obvious effect as the return path via the earth will allow the appliance to continue functioning (in the absence of a RCD circuit breaker).

Failure of the earth core will then give rise to a substantial hazard, as the external metalwork now has an only somewhat higher impedance path to the supply than the fault described above. This is likely to give a substantial shock. Worse, a substantial part of that impedance is probably due to the inductance of a spinning motor that is rapidly slowing down. Worse still the only path for current to blow the supply fuse is via the body of whoever is in contact with the metalwork, with likely fatal results.

This scenario of failed insulation, failed neutral core, failed earth is unfortunately all too possible in the case of an abused and ill maintained appliance, hence the current enthusiasm for double insulation and RCD's, the first of which reduces the risk of insulation failure, the second removes any possibility of the appliance continuing to function with a failed neutral core, and last but not least disconnects the supply with a fault current of 30 milliamps or less, a potentially survivable shock.

For similar reasons bonding the metalwork to neutral is not an option. In the event of an open circuit in the neutral core in the appliance cable (by no means an unlikely fault) the severed section of the neutral and with it the external metalwork floats to supply voltage. :(


 * Plugwash, I really have to ask you to do two things: always sign your comments, so that we know who said what, and be more careful with what you add to the article. There are all sorts of misspellings, bad wording, possible factual errors and comments (comments go here, not in the article!).  Pretty please, be more careful.  This is a Featured Article.  It's supposed to be a shining example of the best of Wikipedia.  Help me keep it at as good a standard as we can.  Chameleon 23:17, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Plugwash is innocent of the section from "further notes" to the comments above. Information (and spelling) is passing comment from an interested observer, and once upon a time electrical engineer. Shoka


 * in reference to further notes, the idea is that of the faults that there is a reasonable chance of happening more than one at a time must occour to pose a danger with an appliace that has a seperate earth the most likely outcome in the case of connection to an unpolarised 2 pin unpolarised connector is no earth which while undesirable is only one fault and requires a second to become dangerous. with an appliance using a combined neutral and earth if the appliance is connected to a 2 pin unpolarised connector there is a 50% chance of DIRECTLY connecting live to the case Plugwash 21:51, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Safety features
I'm not sure I agree with the changes made regarding safety measures.

Insulated pins are not just to stop people grabbing them, as this page shows. Also, children may indeed grab plugs clumsily and touch the pins without conscious effort.

Plastic socket covers may indeed open the shutters, but only when they are inserted into the socket. It is impossible for them to be a hazard. They also protect again drinks, etc. being splashed against the socket.

Despite the insulation, there is still a large piece of exposed metal in the UK design, so it think it unlikely a bad connection will be made. &mdash; Chameleon Main/Talk/Images 09:26, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * OK, so I shouldn't have put in the "requiring deliberate effort bit". There is often a problem, I have seen several instances of sockets with a burnt patch around one pin, or melted plastic insulation. Once I've been in a room with such a problem. Man, burning bakelite really stinks. I do admit that it's generally older sockets or whatnot, that don't make as good a contact - but they would were it not for the plastic sheath.
 * The safety cover thing is subjective, I admit. Zoney 10:40, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * If your sockets melt bits of your plugs, you have a problem with your sockets, not your plugs. They really shouldn't do that!  The plugs should sit snugly in the socket and make contact.  If they are loose because of a faulty socket, the contact will be intermittent when the flex is agitated even if there is no insulation.  &mdash; Chameleon Main/Talk/Images 10:52, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

A passing comment - the British 3-point plug may be "probably the safest plug and socket system in the world" but it's extremely painful if one is lying on the floor prongs-upwards and you step on it with bare feet. I'm not seriously suggesing that needs to be in the article, btw. Harry R 16:55, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Not all british plugs are earthed, all have an earth pin but moulded plugs for couble insulated appliances often have plastic earth pins and no earth wire in the lead attatched. colmd 10:49, 10 Sep 2004


 * The Schuko plug is, apart from the missing extra fuse, as safe as the british 3-point, because of the design of the wall socket, which removes the necessity of partly insulated prongs --Deelkar 03:08, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * That's true, except for the fact that types E and F (including Schuko) will enter about half of type C sockets (and similar sockets such as the Swiss and Danish ones), which means there is no earth connection made. British plugs and sockets always have an earth prong going into an earth hole.  Chameleon 03:35, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Another passing comment - Schuko and French plugs can be used in British sockets by pressing a long object down the earth hole to open the live and neutral shutters, then pushing the European plug down the socket. Stupid, dangerous, but useful when you can't find your adaptor and have almost run out of battery on your phone. Does this kind of hack have its place on the main page? Stereo 02:56, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * Interesting. I've put this to the test.  By sticking a chopstick down the earth hole, I found that 4mm type-C plugs will go right into a UK socket.  4.8mm type-E/F plugs go in too, with a lot of forcing (the rectangular holes are only 4mm wide, and they only stretch to 4.8mm because the 8mm they measure in the other dimension allows a bit of give).  Zero chance of getting a UK plug into a European socket though.  This info is admissible as long as there is a disclaimer. Chameleon 03:35, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * Many British hotels and homes have a two hole shaver socket in the bathroom. At least some will accept European plugs. I do not know if it is an intentional feature, but it is convenient. Bobblewik (talk) 08:35, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * Most hotels I have stayed in have shaver plugs in bathrooms which accept pretty much any size or shape of pin. - Mark 08:50, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * shaver sockets are only supposed to supply about 20W usually (they are transformer isolated) although practical expoerimentation has shown they will take more ;) . i would never advise putting a europlug in a 13A wall socket because they are usually protected only by a 32A breaker or worse a 30A cartridge fuse or worse still a 30A rewirable fuse. Use in an extention lead or *FUSED* adaptor is safer and is probablly something i would do in a pinch.


 * The following shaver socket specification sheet actually states that it will take British, European, Australian and American shaver plugs. You can see quite clearly in the picture how it achieves that. See: http://www.mkelectric.co.uk/PDF/technical/DecFinish_ShaverSupply.pdf Bobblewik (talk) 11:20, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Transforming electrical current and frequency
Hi, and congrats on a really good and informative article. Although I know absolutely nothing about the subject, I have had a bit of experience using transformers for electronic devices and I'd be interested to see an addition to this article on the subject of the effect of non-transformed frequency (eg 50 Hz to 60 Hz) on some electronic devices. I lived for a while in an area that used 110 volts at 50 Hz to which I brought a lot of European appliances. Most of them (i.e. stereo, computers, televisions etc) worked fine on a voltage transformer (110 to 220 V), but a dishwasher and washing machine with quite sophisticated electonic controlling boards would not turn on because of the untransformed frequency. Can anybody watching this project comment on this?? &mdash; Anon


 * um europe is 50hz are you sure the area you were in was not 60hz 110v (50hz 110v is pretty rare)many appliances are built to worldwide standard designs often requiring only minor changes to links inside to swap them between the voltage bands but white goods with there extra bulk and difficulty of movement may be more sensitive localised designs (plugwash)


 * Hey, Plugwash. Make sure you log on, and always sign your comments by clicking on the signature button or typing ~ . Chameleon 00:05, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * Sorry, you're right - it was 60Hz 110V and 50Hz 220V. The point was only that when transforming an electircal current's voltage, the transformer has no effect on the current's frequency, which generally causes no problems, but does seem to disrupt some sensitive electronic devices. (Also, sorry about the lack of signature on my first post!) --Mike Spalding 05:50, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * changing frequency is a difficult buisness an on line (double conversion) UPS would do it but theese are heavy bulky expensive and inefficiant also regarding running such appliances on a transformer most such goods sold in the eu would need a pretty huge transformer and something more than a normal american socket to run off safely. --Plugwash 17:44, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * btw if you are going to run larger european appliances in the usa and you have the 4 pin sockets with 240v between the two hots you can use theese for eurpean appliances just connect your european appliances live and neutral to the two hots and leave the neutral on the american plug unconnected

I'm afraid I think this article currently needs serious work here. Firstly, the frequency problems are a lot more serious than it indicates. It's quite possible for gear that is engineered for 60Hz and which contains a significant inductive load (a transformer or motor for example) to catch fire if used on the correct voltage but at 50Hz, which is a real trap for Americans travelling abroad. This is because the inductive reactance is dependent on the frequency, so you can use a smaller, lighter and cheaper inductor in 60Hz gear. Secondly, I think we need to clarify what a convertor is. I haven't a clue from this article. This again has a safety connotation if what the article says about them is true (I'm a little skeptical). Can someone give me an example? Andrewa 20:47, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * if kit catches fire on a small decrease in feqency there is something really wrong with it something like this could easilly happen with a failing portable generator or similar thermal fuses exsit for a reason--Plugwash 23:36, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * Not true, I'm afraid. This small decrease represents a significant  decrease in the amount of iron you need to put into a ballast choke, for example. I live in a country with 50Hz power, and you'd be surprised how often Americans arrive with a swag of domestic appliances, plug them into a transformer, and see a few of them catch fire. I am talking about reputable brands that have no problem on 60Hz. It is becoming rarer as most manufacturers now manufacture for the world, and as switch-mode power supplies don't suffer this problem at all. But the USA is still big enough that the significant difference that engineering for 60Hz makes is still economically attractive occasionally. Andrewa 10:30, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * on the issue of converters i contacted the author of the source of the original article text (elecricity around the world) http://users.pandora.be/worldstandards/electricity.htm by email i paste the emails in question below--Plugwash 23:36, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * From: peter green [plugwash@bircd.org]
 * To: conradhmcgregor@yahoo.co.uk
 * sent: Sat 11/09/2004 05:02
 * subject: converters
 * on your page http://users.pandora.be/worldstandards/electricity.htm which was copied over to wikipecdial with your blessing and has since been much improved and over there you metnion "converters" (as apposed to transformers)


 * noone seems to know just what theese things are or how they work or why they are not usable for electronic appliances


 * can you shed any light on this issue or provide any references?


 * From: Conrad McGregor [conradhmcgregor@yahoo.co.uk]
 * Sent: 12 September 2004 16:27
 * To: peter green
 * Subject: Re: converters
 * Hi Peter
 *  
 * <DIV>I've taken this from my web site (http://users.pandora.be/worldstandards/electricity.htm)</DIV>
 * <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV>
 * <DIV><STRONG>Why can only “electric” appliances be used with a converter, and not “electronic” ones ?</STRONG></DIV>
 * <P align=left>The difference between a converter and a transformer lies in how the device converts voltage current. Alternating current power is supplied in alternating bursts that are in a shape called a "sine wave". To reduce 230 V to 110 V, for example, a converter chops off the sine waves in half, whereas a transformer alters the length of the sine waves. This is a critical difference because electronic devices require a full sine wave for operation. This is why they can only operate with a transformer. Electric appliances function with either a full or a half sine wave, so they can be used with either a converter or a transformer. </P>
 * <P align=left>The converter's "chopping" off of sine waves is a relatively simple and compact function. The transformer's alteration of sine waves is a relatively sophisticated function and requires more space. As a result, transformers are generally larger, heavier and much more expensive than converters.</P>
 * <P>Regards</P>
 * <P>Conrad


 * <B><I>peter green &lt;plugwash@bircd.org&gt;</I></B> wrote:</P>
 * <BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">on your page http://users.pandora.be/worldstandards/electricity.htm which<BR>was copied over to wikipecdial with your blessing and has since been much<BR>improved and over there you metnion "converters" (as apposed to<BR>transformers)<BR><BR>noone seems to know just what theese things are or how they work or why they<BR>are not usable for electronic appliances<BR><BR>can you shed any light on this issue or provide any references?</BLOCKQUOTE>
 * yahoo mail banner removed


 * <B>From:</B> peter green [plugwash@bircd.org]<BR>
 * <B>Sent:</B> 12 September 2004 17:39<BR>
 * <B>To:</B> Conrad McGregor<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: converters<BR>
 * doesn't sound right to me if you chopped away half of the waveform you would end up with a rms voltage output of input/sqrt(2) not input/2
 * do you remember what source material you used? and whether it had more detail
 * quoted replys trimmed


 * <B>From:</B> Conrad McGregor [conradhmcgregor@yahoo.co.uk]<BR>
 * <B>Sent:</B> 12 September 2004 20:46<BR>
 * <B>To:</B> peter green<BR>
 * <B>Subject:</B> RE: converters<BR>
 * I'm afraid I don't know where it came from...
 * Regards
 * Conrad
 * quoted replys trimmed

All of this doesn't fill me with a great deal of confidence. Andrewa 10:30, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

UK bathrooms
The rules in the UK for bathrooms are more complicated than the article states and bathrooms are divided into different zones depending upon how far from a shower the outlet is. I will try and find some information but it probably belongs in a different article. Secretlondon 18:25, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * from the iee has info on the bathroom zones. Secretlondon 19:01, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)

UK shaver sockets
The ones I can find on sale are different from the one I have in my (modern) flat - I wonder if the standard has changed? See B&Q for pictures. Secretlondon 19:30, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)

This looks like a useful site on UK electrical standards. Secretlondon 19:39, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Voltages and AC Frequency
This page is very good, congrats to everyone who has worked on it.

One related piece of information that seems relevant is the voltage and frequency standards of each country's power supply. Is it the case that every indvidual socket is used for the same power standard everywhere it's used? Or do we need a separate article entirely?

Oh, and while we have tackled domestic sockets here, there are also the higher-voltage (in Australia 415V) multi-phase power sockets used for high-drawing applications. We should cover those somewhere at some stage. &mdash;Robert Merkel 23:03, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * This article is already too long. I feel non-domestic electric connectors will have to have a different page.  &mdash; Chameleon My page/My talk 11:08, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * I don't think it's too long at all. It may be a mundane subject, but it's really quite fascinating. I'd like to add a bit of info on the other types of plugs found in the USA (when I have a bit more time); for 220v applications (stoves, air conditioners) there are at least four distinct types of plugs, depending on amperage. Also, for 220v the live wires will be black and red, the neutral white, and (on a four prong plug) the ground green. Don't have any pictures though. Doovinator


 * I find it fascinating too, which is why I wrote it, but there is a huge amount to be said about industrial connectors, and this article is about mains (domestic) plugs. Industrial power plugs needs to be created.  Chameleon 14:41, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * Oh, I'd hardly call a stove, clothes dryer or a/c socket "industrial". I'm sure over 99% of houses in America have at least one of these sockets, and most 2 or 3 or more. "Industrial plugs" probably would be a good article, but not to mention the common domestic 220v plugs found in every American house wired since 1940 or so is a bit extreme. Doovinator 15:21, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * I have now completed the task of adding voltage and frequency information about every country in the world.   &mdash; Chameleon Main/Talk/Images 11:52, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

To Answer the original question having two countries having identical plugs/sockets DOEN NOT mean the voltages will be the same. Until fairly recently Ireland (including Northern Ireland strangely enough) used 220 volts but mainland Britain used 240 volts yet Almost all buildings in Ireland use British sockets (bar the occasional Schuko socket in the odd pre-WW2 building). A few years ago 230 volts was adopted as a new Euro standard. Japan and the USA use very similar plugs but Japan uses a slightly lower voltage. 80.229.222.48 10:26, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

letter names
Where do the letter names come from? Who uses them &mdash; is it just from that site or is it used in the travel industry etc? Secretlondon 16:14, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * I suspect that they are just from that site. They are rather handy though.  Maybe someone could do some research to find official names for each one (we have some already).  Thanks for the plug pic, by the way.  &mdash; Chameleon My page/My talk 16:24, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * I have discovered they are not standard at all. I'm going to remove them from the article now .  Pity I named the images with those letters.  &mdash; Chameleon My page/My talk 10:17, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * On second thoughts, they are very useful. They group together different plugs of a similar type.  What I'll do instead is keep the letters, but put a note saying they are non standard, and then create sub-sections that use local official names.   &mdash; Chameleon My page/My talk 10:26, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * I think I've found the source of the letter names &mdash; the US government uses them in this document Electric Current Abroad. Note however that the UK entry is wrong, so it may not be exactly accurate. Secretlondon 03:10, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)

original content and follow-up
This article was originally based on the following web page: http://users.pandora.be/worldstandards/electricity.htm

User:Chameleon obtained permission to use the content in the following e-mail exchange

David <David@...com> wrote:
Hi, I am a collaborator on the Wikipedia.org project &mdash; the free, democratic, open-source encyclopaedia.

I am come across your World Standards site and was wondering what your stance on copyright was. Are you the owner of the content &mdash; in particular, the images &mdash; on the site? If you are, perhaps you could consider releasing them under the terms of the GNU free licence so that they can be used on the free encyclopaedia. Or, if they are already public-domain content, I will also be able to use them freely.

Thanks for your time, David Short, Wikipedia user name: Chameleon

Conrad McGregor <conradhmcgregor@y-hoo.co.uk> wrote:
Hi David!

Some pictures on my site (http://users.pandora.be/worldstandards/ ) are owned by me and others are public domain. I have absolutely NO PROBLEM with anyone else using them.

So, go ahead David and use anything you want! Cheers, Conrad McGregor

David <David@...com> wrote:
Do you mind the text being incorporated too?

Conrad McGregor <conradhmcgregor@y-hoo.co.uk> wrote:
I don't mind my text being copied, as long as there's some kind of link or referral to my website in the article. Cheers, Conrad McGregor

David <David@...com> wrote:
I have now created the article. Here is the URL: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mains_power_plug.

I have noted at the bottom of the page, and also on the article's "talk page", where the original content comes from. Wikipedia is entirely open-source, so it can now be edited by anyone, including yourself. The article will be improved over time by dozens of people who will correct things, add information and rearrange the content until one day it will not resemble your page any more — it will simply have been inspired by it. By that point, someone will have removed the attribution information I have inserted at the bottom.

As I said, you can now go to the page, click on "edit this page", and change anything you want, as can any other Wikipedia user. I'd like to invite you to become a "Wikipedian" by contributing your general knowledge to the project, if you feel like it. Feel free to browse through the encyclopaedia and change anything you like. If you add something incorrect, someone will just come and undo it.

Thanks again, David.

Conrad McGregor <conradhmcgregor@y-hoo.co.uk> wrote:
You're welcome!

David <David@...com> wrote:
Hi, do you remember we communicated back in July regarding permission to use content from your site in a Wikipedia article about power plugs? Well, since then the content has evolved considerably, with contributions and corrections from people from all over the world. It has been awarded Featured Article status and is today being showcased on the front page of the free online encyclopaedia.

According to our copyright situation, you are totally free to re-incorporate any content back into your site.

Front page address: http://en.wikipedia.org Article address: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mains_power_plug

Yours, David

Wikipedia user name: Chameleon

Conrad McGregor <conradhmcgregor@y-hoo.co.uk> wrote:
Thanks David, I'm going to check out the page straight away! Conrad

restructuring
this page *WAS* a shining example of wikipedia sadly noone really seems to know which way it is supposed to be going someone for example moved the 15A plug to industrial and multiphase despite the fact it is neither (it is used as the main domestic socket in some countrys and in the uk it is used for theartre lighting and some other specialist but not really industrial applications) the industrial page in general is a joke and has a totally different layout to this page there is a lot of duplication if no objections are raised im going to try and sort this mess out myself any suggestions are welcome Plugwash 02:43, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)

ok i just did a lot of stuff on the Industrial & multiphase power plugs & sockets sister page and i would appriciate it if people could visit its talk page and deal with the things that i can't (which are mentioned there)Talk:Industrial & multiphase power plugs & sockets