Talk:ALCO HH series

Green Bay & Western 101
Are you sure GB&W 101 was a HH600? Several sources do seem to say it was a HH660, though they could be repeating the same, inaccurate info, of course. &mdash;Morven 03:57, May 29, 2005 (UTC)

The build date of 1938 is consistent with an HH600. Refer to this 1947 equipment diagram which lists it as 600 HP: http://www.greenbayroute.com/1947diagram19.htm In later years the GBW carried #101 as a HH660 on their official roster; I have been unable to locate the date, location, and reason for the upgrade. &mdash;Mark Mathu May 29, 2005


 * It's possible that they fitted a M&S 539 engine to replace the original, making it effectively a HH660, but we should see if we can find out anything else. &mdash;Morven 07:07, May 29, 2005 (UTC)

Engine data on the HH660 and HH1000 line of locomotives is inaccurate. No High Hood Alco switchers used the 539 engine. The 539 engine started use with the S-1 and S-2 locomotives. The HH660 used the 538 engine and the HH1000 used the 538T diesel engine. The "T" stands for turbocharger. The HH900 used the 531T engine as developed with the assistance of Dr. Alfred Buchi of Switzerland in 1936-1937. Diesel data from A Centennial Remembrance by Richard Steinbrenner see Alco's first production diesels pp. 166-174. --SSW9389 19:31, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

See also the note in DSG2 on page ALCO-208, "There appears to have been a variation 8/38 to 7/40 on the 531 engine called the '538'." This is the engine used in the High Hood 660s and 1000s, not the 539. The 539 took the 538 and reversed it in the carbody. That is why the radiators are at the far end of the carbody, and the generator is close to the cab on the S-1/S-2 model Alco switchers. Alco also lowered the 539 engine in the frame to lower the overall hood height. --SSW9389 13:33, 26 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Feel free to fix it. I got the '539' part from one of the referenced books, but there's a good chance they were wrong. —Matthew Brown (T:C) 13:49, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

"The last Model 531 equipped 600 horsepower switcher was delivered in June 1938 and the first Model 538 660 horsepower unit was produced in August 1938." from Steinbrenner p. 171. GB&W #101 was built in October 1938, its an HH660. Production date from X2235 Alco HH roster. --SSW9389 00:27, 27 November 2005 (UTC)


 * The production date (1938) is not in question. According to a nationwide roster which Alco itself kept revised to 12/67 GBW #101 contained a 600-HP 538 engine, serial number 2513. (Re: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LocoNotes/message/53915).  The initial 600HP designation should make it an HH600. &mdash;Mark Mathu Dec. 28, 2005


 * The HH600 section of this Wikipedia article says that |"late versions of this locomotive used the 6-cylinder 538 engine," so having a model 538 engine does not necessarily mean that the locomotive is 660 HP, and thus an HH660. Having a 538 engine could also be an HH600.  The evidence points to GBW 101 was built as an HH600 -- see the reference to Alco's roster listing it as an HH600 and GBW's equipment diagram showing it as 600 HP (both noted above).  The October 1938 build date for GBW 101 is consistent with HH600 production, which went from July 1932 through May 1939. —Mmathu (talk) 18:11, 1 June 2008 (UTC)


 * By that reasoning, Central Railroad of New Jersey 1020-1023 were built Dec. 1938, so they should be moved from the HH600 to the HH660 list. &mdash;Mark Mathu Dec. 22, 2005

Diesel-mechanical or diesel-electric?
The article does not mention the type of transmition, are the locomotives diesel-mechanical or diesel-electric? If they are truly diesel-electric, then their early introduction in 1931 would make them some of the earliest diesel electric systems. This would be an important fact and should be highlighted in the article.

I did some research. A data sheet for the Alco HH-600 states that it has an 4-cycle Model 538 6L built by Alco. It also has a "Main Generator" of type "GE - GT551A1". (I assume "GE" stands for General Electric.) It also has four "Traction Motors" of type "GE 287E".

An original data card dated June 1931 (image) lists a "600 H. P. - P. Oil Engine" and four "GE-287-D Motor". The motors are "Spring Nose" suspended and have a gear ratio of 4.25.

I am not an expert on locomotive technology, but I assume the "main generators" amd "traction motors" are part of the electric power transmission.

I am editing the article accordingly.

Petri Krohn 17:10, 2 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the extra info. I gave your paragraph a bit of copyediting to tighten it up. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 20:10, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Subtitle "Diesel-electric power transmission"
(Moved this discussion from my talk page.)

I have removed your subheading since I don't see that the specifications of that particular locomotive and no others deserve a separate section. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 04:27, 3 April 2006 (UTC)


 * This is important and encyclopedic. The ALCO HH series is central in the development of diesel-electric technology, an area that is otherwise very poorly covered in Wikipedia. I added several links to the Alco HH series article from other related articles.


 * What is important is not listing components of individual locomotives but to discribe the components of an diesel-electric powertrain in the context of their first use. Such a description will have interest far outside the scope of railway enthusiasts.


 * If you feel that it is wrong to have a subtitle on technology in the 600 section alone (when other models do not have equal detail on technology), then it is better to move "Diesel-electric power transmission" into its own section. I considered this, but it would break the current structure of the article. On the other hand, the 600 and its construction is the basis for the whole HH series and in fact diesel-electric locomotives the world over.


 * On a general point, I think this article, (like many other railways articles) may be turning into a vanity article with too much detail on individual locomotives. Nothing bad with that, but if it prevents bringing up really relevant information, then it is a bad thing. Petri Krohn 09:00, 3 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Agreed that the history of diesel-electric is poorly covered, but the HH series were production locomotives. ALCO themselves built the ALCO boxcabs before this, also a production run. CNR had full size main-line locomotives running in 1929. GE had a commercial gas-electric using the same principle in 1913. By then, GE, Westinghouse and others had long experience with streetcar traction motors and controls, so made a natural progression to putting the prime mover and generator on board. Meggar 16:46, 3 April 2006 (UTC)


 * The innovation was in the automated control systems that made the diesel-electric a practical proposition - invented by Dr. Lemp, I believe. The creation of a system that allowed the operator to simply use a single controller to select the power level required, rather than having to independently control the engine throttle, generator excitation, and series/parallel on the motors. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 15:00, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

GA failed
For amny reason, first of all I dont think that there is enough bulk to the article, and mainly because the Specifications is not complete yet and does not say as to which model of locomotive it is describing (there are different models so they must differ in spec). Ch ild zy ( Talk 17:11, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

ALCO 300 horsepower end cab switchers
Where do the nine 300 horsepower ALCO end cab switchers fit? They are transitional units between the Jay Street Connecting Box Cab and the HH Series. These are illustrated on page ALCO 216 of DSG2. The two export units were built in 1938 and are not part of the total units in DSG2. --SSW9389 (talk) 18:24, 7 May 2008 (UTC)