Talk:ALF/Archive 1

Sitcom
The sitcom-specific stuff here needs to be merged with lowercase Alf and moved to ALF (TV show), ALF (sitcom), or ALF (alien) and this page needs to redirect to Alf which disambiguates between Animal Liberation Front, Alf (mythology) and ALF (TV show)/sitcom/alien. Geoffrey 01:39 24 Jun 2003 (UTC)


 * I suggest you get to it then, matey!!! quercus robur


 * I think I have cleaned up all of these that I am sure of JimmB 03:12, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Animal Liberation Front
I've redirected this to the Animal Liberation Front, as that's by far the most common one, and I've put a disambiguation link at the top of that page. SlimVirgin (talk) 18:02, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
 * No, it's not the primary use of the term. Yes, an unrestrained Google search returns Animal Liberation Front as the first hist, but it has many uses as the search return shows.  Whether or not the term has been Google bombed or not, I don't know.  Most people have no idea who the Animal Liberation Front are, but depending on their age and television habits, they might be able to recall ALF (TV series).  Also notice that if one searches Google with a string, the first hit returned is a photo of ALF, the alien.  I think the page history clearly demonstrates that there is no consensus for the primary meaning, so the term should redirect to the dab page. &mdash;Viriditas | Talk 09:04, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Furthermore, Disambiguation describes this problem. "When the primary meaning for a term or phrase is well known (indicated by a majority of links in existing articles, and by consensus of the editors of those articles), then use that topic for the title of the main article, with a disambiguation link at the top. Where there is no such consensus, there is no primary topic page." What links here as of this comment is as follows:

* Situation comedy * List of terrorist organisations * List of fictional cats * Saturday morning cartoon * Talk:Alf Garnett * Wikipedia:TLAs from AAA to DZZ * Talk:Earth Liberation Front * David Ogden Stiers * Talk:Animal Liberation Front * List of people from Michigan * WRAL-TV * Chappelle's Show * Masters of the Universe * Sesamstraße * User:The Iconoclast * List of Sega Master System games * List of catch phrases * User:Byrial/Double redirects * User:Xphile2868 * List of acronyms and initialisms: A   * Len Carlson * Adult puppeteering * User talk:Jayson Virissimo * User:Bonzo the Moon Man * User:Jpblo * Talk:Rod Coronado * Saban * Dan Hennessey * User:JSmethers/TLA/A * User talk:PeterZed * Talk:Britches (monkey) * User:Spinoza's God * User:Crashnburn1988 * List of fictional crossovers * User:*Max* * Lewis Arquette * User:Killer Panda * User:Schmierer/Aktivitäten * Talk:Anti-psychiatry/Archive 2

Removing user, talk, and Wikipedia pages and adding name of intended link:

* Situation comedy - ALF (TV series) * List of terrorist organisations - Animal Liberation Front * List of fictional cats - ALF (TV series) * Saturday morning cartoon - ALF (TV series) * David Ogden Stiers - ALF (TV series) * List of people from Michigan - ALF (TV series) * WRAL-TV - ALF (TV series) * Chappelle's Show - ALF (TV series) * Masters of the Universe - ALF (TV series) * Sesamstraße - ALF (TV series) * List of Sega Master System games - ALF (Sega game) based on ALF (TV series) * List of catch phrases - ALF (TV series) * List of acronyms and initialisms: Africa Leadership Forum, Alien Life Form (ALF (TV series)), Animal Liberation Front * Len Carlson - ALF (TV series) * Adult puppeteering - ALF (TV series) * Saban - ALF (TV series) * Dan Hennessey - ALF (TV series) * List of fictional crossovers - ALF (TV series) * Lewis Arquette - ALF (TV series)

Non-linked instances of "ALF" can be found here. Based upon Disambiguation and the above links, the primary redirect should be ALF (TV series). Therefore, I am changing this redirect accordingly. I've also updated List of terrorist organisations. &mdash;Viriditas | Talk 03:50, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
 * After further research, paying closer attention to WP:NCON, WP:DAB, and WP:NCA ("In many cases, though, there is no decision to make, because the acronym has several expansions; meaning that the articles have to be at the spelled-out phrases and the acronym has to be a disambiguation article disambiguating amongst them"), I've come to the conclusion that a redirect to the dab page is more appropriate. &mdash;Viriditas | Talk 07:13, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

And again
Viriditas, there's no question that the most common use of ALF is to describe the Animal Liberation Front. SlimVirgin (talk) 03:03, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Going through the web, the academic literature, and print sources, I do not find that to be true. Can you provide some evidence? I just sourced the entire dab page, and will be adding more entries.  "ALF" is used to refer to many things. &mdash;Viriditas | Talk 03:21, 22 May 2007 (UTC)


 * But it is used most commonly to refer to the Front. You're denying that only because you have an anti-AR POV. If you could put that to one side, I think you'd agree. If you were to mention ALF to any journalist, they'd assume you meant the Front. Ditto any law enforcement officer, mainstream publisher etc, and this is global, not just in the U.S. Who outside North America has ever heard of ALF the sitcom that stopped running 17 years ago? SlimVirgin (talk) 03:27, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I have never represented any type of "anti-AR POV" at any time on Wikipedia. On the other hand, I have consistently and repeatedly demanded accuracy in AR-related articles and categories.  "ALF" is used commonly to refer to many things.  Why don't you want it to point to the dab page? &mdash;Viriditas | Talk 03:30, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
 * You've represented a strong anti-AR POV; and what you were calling for did not resemble accuracy in the opinion of the people who opposed you.
 * ALF is not used commonly to refer to many things, and the fact that you're having to add phrases with no articles that most people won't have heard of (and likely won't ever hear of) is testimony to that. ALF is understood by most reliable published sources to refer to the Animal Liberation Front. It is the organization for whom the abbreviation is most commonly deployed. SlimVirgin (talk) 03:43, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Again, I've never represented a "strong anti-AR POV" at any time, and I challenge you to show diffs proving as such. It will be impossible for you to do so.  As for what "most reliable published sources refer to", it depends on the context of the usage.  ALF refers to many things; more than just an organization. &mdash;Viriditas | Talk 03:47, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree with SlimVirgin on this. The series 'Alf' from many years ago is not as widespread as the front. To claim that is preposterous. The little analysis from above doesn't prove anything - just that the show's actors are linked to the page etc... I support redirecting this back to how it was.-Localzuk(talk) 07:44, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I understand that the two of you are in agreement, as you are both active members of WikiProject Animal rights. Also, you are misinformed as to the status of redirection.  This page was always a disambiguation until SlimVirgin began redirecting this article against the consensus of many editors.  You can see the page history for yourself.  So, in fact, this page "was" a disambiguation page, not a redirect to Animal Liberation Front.  Slim's recent "move over redirect" appears to have resulted in the loss of some of the previous page history, although I am not quite sure if that is or is not the case.  I believe it to be so, because there appears to be missing page history entries, although I am willing to admit that I am wrong, if the need arises. Finally, neither you nor SlimVirgin have offered any reason why the term "ALF" should redirect to Animal Liberation Front.  As far as I can tell, there is no reason, only strong feelings from the both of you.  Please see the Disambiguation guideline. "When the primary meaning for a term or phrase is well known (indicated by a majority of links in existing articles, and by consensus of the editors of those articles), then use that topic for the title of the main article, with a disambiguation link at the top. Where there is no such consensus, there is no primary topic page."  It would be to your benefit to invite neutral Wikipedians to this discussion, such as editors who are not members of the Animal Rights WikiProject like yourself. &mdash;Viriditas | Talk 07:54, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

I was asked to lend my opinion since I do a lot of my work with dabs, so I will. SlimVirgin's statement that "there is no question" is not a valid argument. Primary topic distinctions are usually done on the basis of links, and Viriditas has shown that the links favor the television series. If someone wants to make a broader statement that the links are not reflective of the preponderance of searches, that's fine too (I attempted a similar argument recently at Talk:Enfield), but the argument can't consist of calling the other editor's opinion "preposterous". WP:DAB notes that "If there is extended discussion about which article truly is the primary topic, that may be a sign that there is in fact no primary topic, and that the disambiguation page should be located at the plain title with no "(disambiguation)"." Please present some form of evidence; for example, my Google search ALF+series got about 1.25 million hits, and ALF+animal got 1.1 million. It's inexact, but it's an attempt at research.

This page has been moved by other administrators to the plain title twice in the last year, because it represented a malplaced disambiguation page. In other words, the status quo is not a redirect from ALF to Animal Liberation Front. My suggestion is to create a standard discussion space suggesting a move from ALF (disambiguation) to ALF, and to list it at WP:RM. Consensus for a move would indicate that there isn't a primary topic. The setup of a disambiguation page shouldn't have anything to do with any (anti-)animal rights agenda, so just show the debate to fully neutral parties. Dekimasu よ! 08:54, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

A few more things: I have removed dab page entries that had no red or blue links and I've marked the page for cleanup - several of the others are piped, don't have articles, and need to go as well. And the links on the page are supposed to be arranged roughly according to frequency. ALF (TV series) and Animal Liberation Front should certainly be the first two entries here, in some order. Dekimasu よ! 09:07, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Regarding frequency, the current entry, "Alf is short for the names Alfonso and Alfred" should probably be modified to include a reference to Norse, Viking or Scandinavian names, and bumped up higher per the search results below. &mdash;Viriditas | Talk 09:34, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

There is obviously a question of the most common use of ALF. Asking Google to define it (searching on define:ALF), yields three non-Wikipedia definitions: Jabhat At-Tahrir Al-‘Arabiyya, Alien Life Form, and Australian League Football. The base name ALF should be the dab, and ALF (disambiguation) should be moved there. In other words, I agree with Dekimasu's conclusion. -- JHunterJ 10:49, 22 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree that the disambiguation page should be located at ALF. The TV show and the animal rights organization should probably get some sort of special billing as the most likely targets. older ≠ wiser 04:56, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
 * PS, I think page does need some cleanup per WP:MOSDAB though. For one thing, piped links are discouraged on disambiguation pages. older ≠ wiser 12:13, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Cleaned up pipelinks, references, entries with no WP articles, entries whose articles didn't mention them or ALF, etc. -- JHunterJ 12:35, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

More search results
10,400 hits from en.wikipedia.org for ALF -Animal -Liberation -Front 8,190 hits from en.wikipedia.org for ALF -television -Alien -Life -Form -Animal -Liberation -Front 2,320 hits from en.wikipedia.org for ALF alien OR television OR alien OR life OR force 667 hits from en.wikipedia.org for Animal Liberation Front 128 hits from en.wikipedia.org for allintitle: ALF 93 hits from en.wikipedia.org for ALF Animal Liberation Front 72 hits from en.wikipedia.org for allintitle: ALF -missing -image -project -mask -adminship -series -user -talk -television -user -talk -Alien -Life -Form -Animal -Liberation -Front
 * &mdash;Viriditas | Talk 09:17, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the . Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

ALF (disambiguation) → ALF — A request is made to move ALF (disambiguation) to the dab page ALF, due to its alleged status as a malplaced disambiguation page; the article has been moved twice in the last year for this reason. WikiProject Animal rights disputes this move, preferring to redirect ALF to Animal Liberation Front, with the rationale that the term "ALF" is most commonly used to describe that group. Internal Wikipedia links and reliable, external print and electronic sources do not concur on a primary topic. Previous discussion has occurred here. &mdash;Viriditas | Talk 13:28, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Survey

 * Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with  or  , then sign your comment with  . Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.


 * Support per my comments above: there is no clear primary topic. -- JHunterJ 13:58, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Support There is no clear primary topic. Since I tend to think of the T.V. show (although I can't recall ever watching it), maybe I should claim that all those opposed have an anti-Cheesy 80s sitcom POV. RobDe68 22:17, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Support per nomination. —  AjaxSmack      02:52, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Support. I've never heard of the Animal Liberation Front, and the sheer number of pages on this list militates against a primary topic. --Smack (talk) 19:00, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Support, there are too many topics referred to by "ALF" for it to be restricted to the Animal Liberation Front. &mdash; ዮም  |  (Yom)  |  Talk  • contribs • Ethiopia 21:25, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Viriditas has been engaged in what I see as a WP:POINT by adding lots of groups that might use the term ALF to this page, whether they actually use that abbreviation or not, and I hope he'll soon supply sources showing that they do use it. The fact is that most mainstream sources use the term ALF to apply to the Animal Liberation Front. Viriditas opposes ALF being redirected to the Animal Liberation Front, but that's no reason for this page not to be called a disambig page, because that's what it is. SlimVirgin (talk) 22:35, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * This is a disambiguation page, yes, and will be categorized as such. It only needs to include a disambiguating (disambiguation) tag in the title, however, if there is a primary topic at the base name.  If there is no primary topic (as in this case), the disambiguation page occupies the base name. Many examples are listed here: Links to disambiguating pages. -- JHunterJ 11:17, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Support per my comments above. older ≠ wiser 04:57, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Any additional comments:


 * To answer SlimVirgin, all of the groups listed in section zero are already sourced to reliable sources describing them as "ALF" and can be shown whenever possible to use that acronym. That's why they are listed in a reliable reference work.  Additional reliable sources can be provided showing that each acronym is supported by both mainstream and self-titled sources.  As only one example, the Afar Liberation Front is referred to as "ALF" in the mainstream media,  by academia by the United Nations, in books   and in papers published by the group referring to themselves as "ALF". &mdash;Viriditas | Talk 07:58, 24 May 2007 (UTC)