Talk:ASEAN/Archives/2013

Defunct European Community?
"This new grouping acted as a prerequisite for the planned East Asia Community, which was supposedly patterned after the now-defunct European Community"

As far as I know the EC is not defunct, I believe the term "now-defunct" should be removed... (May, 10th 2009)

Latin translation of ASEAN
CONSOCIATIO NATIONIS AUSTERORIENTALIS ASIANUS - Delfindakila (talk) 16:09, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Quotation
I noticed that there are a lot of quotation here. If it is possible, state the source. Else, the quote should be removed. __earth 10:25, Dec 1, 2004 (UTC)

GDP

 * 2003, PPP 2172.395, currency 680.553. Number of capita for 2003 was 537.11 million. - Jerryseinfeld 18:49, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Improvement Drive
The article on Brunei is currently listed to be improved on This week's improvement drive. You can support the nomination with your vote there. --Fenice 06:36, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

Timor-Leste
I've seen no evidence that Timor-Leste is an observer. Source? If none is given, I'll remove the alleged fact. ナイトスタリオン ✉ 13:57, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
 * East Timor is not an observer. It however has been seeking it though Myanmar objects due to the small nation support of Aung San. The Jakarta Post has some more about it. __earth 11:34, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that's what I heard, too. I've removed the incorrect fact. [[Image:European-Austrian flag hybrid.svg|20px]] ナイトスタリオン ✉ 12:31, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

I think Timor-Leste should be included as a future member. - Isao
 * That is irrelevant.
 * On a separate note, Timor-Leste is currently a candidate for membership. According to this, it will take approximately 5 years to full membership. I have added it in accordingly. Nonetheless, if you want this point to be more prominently featured on the article, do go ahead. Ariedartin JECJY Talk 06:07, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

East Timor IS a member of ASEAN. Joshywawa (talk) 12:13, 22 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Not yet, please someone edit the article to include this reference (I don't know how to do it): http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2011/11/19/i-have-my-own-view-sby-tells-pm-lee-hsien-loong.html it's from 2011 in which Indonesia recommended East Timor to be accepted as a member, but Singapore - being the most developed nation in ASEAN - objected to it. However given that Indonesia could be seen as the natural leader of ASEAN with supports from Malaysia and Cambodia, I would expect Indonesian's view would hold more weight in this case. UUlum (talk)

OBJECTIVES
There were three aims of ASEAN: - To promote social, economic and cultural developement in the region - To protect the peace and stability in the region - To allow the members to discuss differences peacefully.

I edited the main text, they only listed two - the first two. Joshywawa (talk) 12:21, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

--- EU, North American Security and Prosperity Partnership and now this? NWO, anybody? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.226.181.51 (talk) 04:27, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Corruption
The word has been deleted since it has no relevance.

Redirect?
Perhaps this article should be listed as ASEAN by default rather than the more wordy current version, in line with other organisations such as NATO. Jsteph 04:37, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

GA Nomination
I have nominated this article for GA on WP:GAC, and will be due for a review. You can check up on it, if you wish. Ariedartin JECJY Talk 12:04, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

GA on Hold
Wow, more than a month before a review, we really need more help with the backlog. I am going to put the article on hold for now until several items are fixed according to the GA criteria.

Fix these suggestions:
 * 1) In the lead, remove the comma after Singapore.
 * 2) "The countries meet annually." Expand on this statement, such as they meet annually to discuss "x".
 * 3) "the Philippines, Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore and Thailand." add comma after Singapore; "The mainland states of Vietnam, Laos and Myanmar were later admitted." add comma after Laos.
 * 4) "Vietnam joined ASEAN on July 28, 1995. Laos and Myanmar were admitted into ASEAN on July 23, 1997." Merge these into one sentence and add inline citation.
 * 5) "In July 23, 2006, Jose Ramos Horta, Prime Minister of Timor-Leste, signed a formal request for membership and expects a five-year accession process." Fix "expects", either use another term or make it parallel with the rest of the information in the sentence.
 * 6) Make sure all of the information in the infobox is current.
 * 7) "The organization holds annual meetings in relation to economic, and cultural development of Southeast Asian countries." remove the comma after economic
 * 8) The article could also use some more expansion, there are only a few sections of prose and then several charts. I'd recommend a section about the successes/failures of the decisions made in the summits, any other countries that are expressing interest in joining, opposition/support by citizens/other countries, etc. Add at least one of these or another one you can think of to help assist in the broad requirement in the GA criteria.

Add inline citations:
 * 1) The British protectorate of Brunei joined ASEAN six days after the country became independent from the United Kingdom on January 8, 1984.
 * 2) In 2003, the organization had a combined GDP of about USD$700 billion, growing at an average rate of around 4% per annum.
 * 3) The ASEAN countries include more Muslims than any other geopolitical entity.
 * 4) About 240 million Muslims live mostly in Indonesia, Malaysia and Brunei. Buddhism constitutes the main religion of mainland Southeast Asia and there are about 170 million Buddhists in Thailand, Myanmar, Laos, Cambodia, Vietnam and Singapore. Roman Catholicism is predominant in the Philippines.
 * 5) ASEAN regularly conducts dialogue meetings with other countries and the European Union, collectively known as the ASEAN dialogue partners during the ASEAN Regional Forum (ARF).
 * 6) In 1992, leaders decided to hold meetings every three years; and in 2001 it was decided to meet annually to address urgent issues affecting the region.

The article looks pretty good so far but the above suggestions should be fixed before I'll pass it. You have seven days to do so, and if they are not fixed I'll have to fail it. Let me know when you finish these or if you have any questions on my talk page. --Nehrams2020 09:08, 3 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I appreciate your comments and notes. I will begin the process of fixing now. =) Ariedartin JECJY Talk 12:08, 3 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I did the first round of edits. I hope people will come forward to contribute more. Ariedartin JECJY Talk 16:17, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Move it back to Association of Southeast Asian Nations
Being "wordy" isn't a reason for moving this, unless the org has officially renamed itself into "ASEAN," with "ASEAN" not meaning anything. -- Howard  the   Duck  09:14, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree it should be returned to its full title.--cj | talk 10:04, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Move has been executed (for the lack of a better word). Ariedartin JECJY Talk 06:18, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

ASRF
I was redirected to ASEAN from ASEAN Regional Forum ? The Current (8 March 2007) version of World Fact Book has the USA as a member of ASRF which I guess is the ASEAN Regional Forum featured here in wikipedia as a non article with a redirect attached. Just from what I read here it looks like there ought to be an actual article not a redirect, as just looking at the US history in that neighborhood....there is stuff to say, and maybe at least a bit of history? this post was contibuted by User:John5Russell3Finley


 * An actual article on ASRF would be useful, but the ASRF is a very minor geopolitical player compared to ASEAN, and there is little more to be said about it than already exists in this article. While the history of the US in the region is interesting, this is not the place for a history lesson, and other ASRF members have had similar or greater influence in SE Asia, eg. Indian, Portuguese, British, Spanish, Dutch and French. Either way, such information belongs in History_of_Southeast_Asia not here. Nazlfrag (talk) 14:24, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

GA passed
I have passed the article according to the GA criteria. Everything is well-sourced and is broad in coverage. If possible, continue to expand as new information appears, making sure to always source it. Just a quick note, for the statement "Consequently, the fourth meeting was held in Singapore in 1992 where the leaders again agreed to meet more frequently every three years." change the last part of it to "meet more frequently, deciding to get together every three years" or something like it. Otherwise it sounds like every three years they meet, they're going to decide to meet even more frequently and so on. That would soon be quite a bit of meetings! Anyway, good job, and if you have the time, consider helping with the GAC backlog and reviewing an article or two. Keep up the good work on improving the articles within Wikipedia! --Nehrams2020 21:00, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Great work folks! __earth (Talk) 13:22, 11 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your time, Nehrams2020! We appreciate your review and would like to send you our thanks. To everyone who has worked on the article, give yourselves a hand! And back to work... Ariedartin JECJY Talk 16:17, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your work!--23prootie 01:46, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Deleting A Paragraph from CRITICISM
I am deleting a whole paragraph from the CRITICISM section:

"During the 12th ASEAN Summit in Cebu, several militant groups staged anti-globalization and anti-Arroyo rallies.[42] Accoding to the militants, the agenda of economic integration would negatively affect industries in the Philippines and would cause thousands of Filipinos to lose their jobs.[43] They also viewed the organization as "imperialistic" that threatens the country's sovereignty.[43] A human rights lawyer from New Zealand was also present to protest about the human rights situation in the region in general."

The reason for the removal is because it singles out one nation out of the 9 member organization. Also, not only does it single out one nation it deliberately condone President Arroyo does making a political statement and it criticizes her administration for Human Right's violation; thus, making the whole paragraph aggressively political and very opinionated namely against Arroyo.

If the original author wants to criticize then he or she better lay out every member's dirty laundries not just single out one country. Or the author can write a more extensive essay about the failings and criticism against the ASEAN organization, as a whole not just one: from trade talks, political maneuverings, to the other matters.

JonSnow


 * It speaks about the last summit, so it seems pertient, even if it is not flattering of Arroyo. El_C 19:08, 23 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I concur. Furthermore, we take steps to achieving a good article rating, not leaps. Plus, when we write content in Wikipedia, we don't bother about political implications or "fair exposure" - we just write what we find and is reliable.


 * On the other hand, you could help out by helping to write out that essay? Wikipedia is free to edit for a reason, after all. Ariedartin JECJY Talk 09:56, 24 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree with the above points. It is also exemplary of ASEAN criticisms overall. Perhaps a qualifying statement such as, "An example of the opposition to ASEAN occured at the 12th ASEAN Summit in Cebu..." etc. That's far more fair and nuanced than sledgehammering an entire paragraph. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.233.30.208 (talk) 17:39, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Australia in Asean
Dear User:ZwickauDeluxe, concerning your edit that removes the sentences on Australia applying for membership, the Bloomberg article states that Australia plans to apply for permanent membership of ASEAN. It is not right to remove a footnoted sentence off the article, especially so when the source is reputable. __earth (Talk) 04:27, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Read the Bloomberg article for yourself. It is speculative and does not contain any official confirmation that Australia is seeking to join ASEAN. Australian officials are more interested in an Australia-New Zealand free trade agreement with ASEAN, as opposed to actually joining the bloc. From an Australian perspective, the thought of Australia becoming an ASEAN member is really quite preposterous. ZwickauDeluxe 16:40, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

"As a display of solidarity against communist expansion in Vietnam and insurgency within their own borders" This is not a fact, nor is it supported by any concrete citation. I have read through some major documents of ASEAN, and have not found anything like this. Should we reconsider it?Hawkie 13:47, 31 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I posted my point and no one's gonna reply. So I decided to delete the phrase by myself. If anyone can give satisfactory proofs or citations, feel free to restore the phrase, but don't forget to stick some support along with it.Hawkie 20:13, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Re: Maps
I love the many maps showing who is part of ASEAN+3 and so forth, but I really think the first map is not very helpful in clearly seeing who the member states of ASEAN are. Instead of a global map, couldn't someone use a map of Southeast Asia/all of Asia, which would make it much easier to see the member states (especially ones like Singapore)?? Nicolasdz 09:31, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

EXACT SAME MAP
The exact same map appears twice in the article showing" ASEAN full members ██ ASEAN observers ██ ASEAN candidate members ██ ASEAN Plus Three ███ East Asia Summit ██████ ASEAN Regional Forum

Seems quite redundant, doesn't it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.95.216.225 (talk) 16:46, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Further reading for more content
I've done a bit of browsing, and I found a few publications in which material on ASEAN can be found and be very, very useful: These contain quite a bit of content and perspectives on ASEAN and also a lot on its history - something we direly need to add into the article. Unfortunately, due to exams being much less than a month away, I have no time myself to obtain these books. Anyone eager for the challenge? Ariedartin JECJY Talk 11:14, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
 * The ASEAN Reader by Kernial Singh Sandhu
 * The 2nd ASEAN Reader by Sharon Siddique, Sree Kumar
 * The Politics of ASEAN, An Introduction to Southeast Asian Regionalism by Solidum, Estrella D.
 * I was skimming through them some time ago, and I would like to rephrase that. It's not just quite a bit of content, it's really rich with information that this article needs to escalate to A-class status. Ariedartin JECJY Talk 11:00, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

India Missing from Maps
The entire country of India is missing (appears as white) on two of the maps.
 * This really needs to be rectified. --72.208.130.58 (talk) 00:14, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

There are 4 instances of global maps being used (2 of which are the same) but all of them have deleted India. This is very odd. Did nobody notice a huge white gap when they uploaded the picture? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.111.213.41 (talk) 08:59, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

It appears that the changes to teh maps were made in two edits on 27 April 2008 at 18:20 and 18:48. Is there any reason why we can't simply revert to the previously used images (which included India)? I have asked before doing so in case there was a problem with the old images Eas21c (talk) 10:46, 20 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Maps have been reverted. __earth (Talk) 11:17, 20 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Update - maps have been repaired by the author. So, case closed. =) __earth (Talk) 01:31, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:Asean-para2.png
The image Image:Asean-para2.png is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check


 * That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
 * That this article is linked to from the image description page.

The following images also have this problem:


 * File:Seagf.png

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Media copyright questions. --22:24, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Tagalog/Filipino
Aren't they basically the same language? Why are they listed alongside each other as "official languages"? Colipon+(T) 04:56, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
 * The constitution treats them as different languages.08:15, 8 August 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.215.116.125 (talk)

Map
The difference between dark blue and lighter blue countries is difficult to tell in this map.--dunnhaupt (talk) 22:23, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

TEMPLATE
Cant a template be made for: --Briaboru (talk) 15:43, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Pronunciation
I'm familiar with the pronunciation /ˈæzi.ɑːn/. I don't think I've ever heard /ˈɑːsi.ɑːn/. Can anyone confirm? 121.73.181.118 (talk) 11:21, 19 December 2008 (UTC)


 * That latter pronunciation is the most common within Southeast Asia, and I can off-hand tell you it's the most commonly heard in press conferences. Ariedartin JECJY Talk 12:49, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

ASEAN needs cites
ASEAN was listed as a Good Article in March of 2007.

However, currently two sections of the article have been tagged "This section does not cite any references or sources" since May 2008, and another section since September 2008.

We should cite or remove this material. If we don't, we should de-list this article from status as a Good Article. -- 201.37.230.43 (talk) 16:50, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

GA Reassessment
This article is being reassessed as part of the GA Sweeps project. I have found the article to not meet the GA Criteria, and as such is in danger of being delisted from GA status. My review is here. I will hold the article for one week and will reassess then. I will notify the interested projects and primary editor with the hope that work can be done to keep the article. H1nkles (talk) 21:18, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Vietnam's membership date
July 21, 1994 or July 28, 1995. One is mentioned in this article and the other is mentioned in List of ASEAN member states —Preceding unsigned comment added by 113.22.165.108 (talk) 03:11, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

East Timor on the map
East Timor is not a member but is coloured in on the map. Well the boarder is not even there, it shows East Timor as being a part of Indonesia. This has not been so since 2001. Can someone sort out the map please. I am unable to edit SVG maps that well. IJA (talk) 14:19, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Corrected. --[[Image:Emblem-wiki.svg|20px]] Addicted  ( Talk ) 21:57, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

List of Secreteriats of past Rotation
Would someone include the names of all the Secretaries inside the table of the formal summits next to their respective nation. That way we know who is the Chair in the past rotation. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rit99 (talk • contribs) 19:02, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

French Guiana not a member of ARF
Why is French Guiana (in northeast South America) colored orange as a member of the ASEAN Regional Forum in the map in the Regional Forum section? It is definitely not a member. This map should be updated to correct that. Resplin.odell (talk) 15:28, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
 * It's part of France, France is a member. Therefore it is coloured. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 15:59, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Dead link
During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!


 * http://www.asean.org/ASEAN-Charter.pdf
 * In Flag of the Association of Southeast Asian Nations on 2011-03-19 07:43:38, 404 Not Found
 * In ASEAN on 2011-06-20 01:00:13, 404 Not Found

--JeffGBot (talk) 01:00, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Dead link 2
During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!


 * http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iy-MfhLN9Q7MwtQ1VlrvexLjr2dAD8SA9CS00
 * In 2007 Burmese anti-government protests on 2011-05-26 02:40:48, 410 Gone
 * In 2007 Burmese anti-government protests on 2011-05-27 14:58:43, 410 Gone
 * In 2007 Burmese anti-government protests on 2011-06-15 11:12:31, 410 Gone
 * In ASEAN on 2011-06-20 01:00:34, 410 Gone

--JeffGBot (talk) 01:01, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Dead link 3
During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!


 * http://www.taiyonoie.or.jp/fespic/
 * In FESPIC Games on 2011-03-18 13:04:26, 403 Forbidden
 * In ASEAN on 2011-06-20 01:00:39, 403 Forbidden

--JeffGBot (talk) 01:01, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: page moved. Vegaswikian (talk) 20:40, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

ASEAN → Association of Southeast Asian Nations – Relisted. Vegaswikian (talk) 00:20, 14 November 2011 (UTC) I would like to request that this page be moved back to "Association of Southeast Asian Nations". In November 2008, user 23prootie moved the article to ASEAN on the grounds that it's commonly used to the extent that ASEAN is now a "real word". While this may be the case in the Philippines to a certain extent (where the acronym ASEAN is used rather than its official name in English or even the name in Filipino), I'm doubtful that this is necessarily the case in other member countries. In addition, per WP:ACRONYMTITLE, unless the subject is known exclusively by its acronym (which it is not), an article's title should not be abbreviated into its acronym. Similarly, other "ASEAN-like" organizations are not titled by their acronyms, and so for the sake of consistency, the article should be moved back to its full name. --Sky Harbor (talk) 12:31, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I note that NATO is titled with the acronym (although obviously not identical in purpose). In addition, ASEAN is used a lot in Malaysia and Singapore, the other ASEAN countries with large english speakers. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 12:42, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I do not discount that the acronym is used a lot in English-language Southeast Asian media, but I don't believe that all references to the subject in question are simply "ASEAN". For example, in the Philippines, while people generally call the organization ASEAN for the sake of brevity, local media still use the full name of the organization before using the acronym: see this and this.  Whenever I read articles on NATO, I don't see "North Atlantic Treaty Organization" in the introductory paragraph, I just see "NATO".  That's not the case for ASEAN. --Sky Harbor (talk) 12:50, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, they sometimes do spell it, but it's clearly recognisable enough to be the title. They don't spell it out a lot too, I've read tons of articles where it isn't spelled out. I just did a quick and dirty google news search for "ASEAN", out of the first 10 hits, (where APEC is spelled out)(Xinhua philstar mirror) do not spell it out, and (Xinhua philstar mirror) do (I note there's a philippine source in both categories, so it's probably writer preference). ASEAN is clearly understandable on its own, regardless of the other merits of the argument. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 00:34, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
 * As far as I'm concerned, that's merely because of space restrictions for article titles. If ASEAN was that recognizable, it wouldn't be spelled out: the guideline clearly states that the organization has to be exclusively known by that name.  That is not the case, as far as I am concerned.  Also, other languages still spell out the name, including the languages of the constituent ASEAN countries. --Sky Harbor (talk) 10:22, 12 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Oppose per WP:ACRONYMTITLE. SchreyP (messages) 13:11, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Support per WP:ACRONYMTITLE. Sorry I made a mistake, my first impression was a move towards ASEAN; it is the other way around. SchreyP (messages) 08:14, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Support per WP:ACRONYMTITLE. Dicklyon (talk) 00:34, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Support per nom. This is not really near the level of general usage of NATO, UNICEF, or UNESCO. It's probably not even as close as OECD, which is not quite to acronym-only territory yet. Good Ol’factory (talk) 04:02, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Support per WP:ACRONYMTITLE and for the reasons already given in above comments.  S  W H talk 02:53, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Conflict
In the section The ASEAN way, there is an outdated and therefore misleading quote that states that "no tension has escalated into armed confrontation among ASEAN member countries". Given that we have a page on the Cambodian–Thai border dispute and that dispute is ongoing and violent, should the quote be removed or a reference to this conflict added? Bern1005 (talk) 12:03, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
 * The Cambodian-Thai dispute hasn't erupted into a war yet. I think that is what it is trying to say. CMD (talk) 12:02, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Economic strength
The article states that were it a single entity, ASEAN would be the 10th largest economy in the world. It then goes on to list the 12 nations that would have larger economies... Shinigami27 (talk) 01:14, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Please new article
Akuindo (talk) 00:21, 6 December 2013 (UTC)