Talk:A Famosa

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Requested move 15 December 2020

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: Page moved, to revert an undiscussed move in September 2020. (non-admin closure) Moonraker12 (talk) 15:27, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

Fortress of Malacca → A Famosa – This article should be moved back to the longstanding title of "A Famosa", which is the current name for the structure in question. It is the name used in Government tourism leaflets, the Malacca government website, and tourist maps. The Bank Negara Malaysia Museum and Art Gallery specifically notes the A Famosa name is more common, saying "Fortresse de Malacca, better known as A Famosa...among the oldest surviving European architectural remains in Asia". (Less substantially but somewhat indicatively, a Malaysian google trends search finds 0 results for "Fortress of Malacca" and "Fortress of Melaka".) It's possible that the meaning of the term has shifted over time, but in current usage "A Famosa" is by far the more common and recognisable name for the remaining structure. CMD (talk) 17:51, 15 December 2020 (UTC) —Relisting. Vpab15 (talk) 23:08, 23 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Oppose "A Famosa" just a common Portuguese/Spanish word meaning "The Famous", and, well, unfortunately it's not very famous. It would not be recognizable to most readers.  And frankly surprising for someone who is actually searching for the fortress of Malacca (that nickname is not typically found in Portuguese historical records or secondary sources). In short, it is insufficiently WP:PRECISE. Moreover, that term is limited to a currently standing keep, not the actual fortress, whereas the article is about the fortress (historical and current), not merely the keep. "Fortress of Malacca" seems a natural name, sufficiently precise and more recognizable. Walrasiad (talk) 21:32, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
 * The term refers to the whole fortress, as shown in the sources above. As for precision, there is not a single other Wikipedia article with the name "A Famosa". If you have sources that show examples of use that would make the current title recognisable, they would be appreciated. CMD (talk) 01:23, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 16:09, 17 December 2020 (UTC)


 * Closed (non-admin closure) : This page was moved without discussion in September 2020; It should have been referred to WP:RMUM as an undiscussed move, rather than opening a RM discussion to reverse it. It is up to the editor who moved it to justify a change, not for those who favour the original title to justify putting it back. Moonraker12 (talk) 15:24, 27 January 2021 (UTC)


 * The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Facebook post by Serge Jardin
Some of the points in the following off-wiki social-media post are worth incorporating in the article. https://www.facebook.com/serge.jardin.75/posts/pfbid02bFhqxdAStPTQzvdziAsDA5zT3os6uNZZNiESLbDHBLA1BA1qDW58GiaxrQK7Tkgcl?__cft__&#x5B;0&#x5D;=AZWMtVRBZG8nsbynUfBiU67EnXXBI3rjRz6GS_kh-r6dMSVMWCK_i7dh-d4HNO6OaGphk61OF4Z26zBQ8968OfUooqeifXJID6jvOponSxdPiLDx9hrUv3XvBGUb7t0I4TmqA1uWzmqFWErmyDEebUIWi3FQSTAzmdXAZPMWMzsMUw&__tn__=%2CO%2CP-R

1/ ‘A Famosa’, The Famous, is not in “Malay: Kota A Famosa” but ‘Kota Termashhor’.

2/ It was not built in “1512” but in 3 years, from 1511 to 1514.

3/ The keep of ‘A Famosa’ (the Castle) was never called ‘A Famosa’ (the Famous) but ‘Torre de Menajem’ (Tower of Homage). Note 1: an exhibition held in ‘Bank Negara’ in 2013 cannot be considered an historical source.

4/ “By the Dutch, the keep was destroyed”. No, ‘A Famosa’ (the Castle and its keep) was not destroyed in 1641 as the Dutch used it as Slaves’ Quarter called ‘Slavenburg’ for 170 years.

5/ Middelburgh Bastion was not restored, but rebuilt anew in 2008. It doesn’t qualify to be “among the oldest European architectural remains in Southeast Asia and the Far East.”

6/ Note 3: ‘Atlas Obscura’ (2020) cannot be considered an historical source, as it ‘copied and pasted’ the usual mistakes. The Portuguese never started to build the ‘Fortaleza’ (the Fortress) in 1511, but in 1535, first in ‘taipa’ (earth) and then in stone, completed 30 years later. In 1511, they only build the castle ‘A Famosa’, completed in 3 years. Napoleon ‘s army never invaded Holland in 1795, but Pichegru’s army in 1794. ‘A Famosa’ (the Castle) was never destroyed in 1807, but partly by the Dutch in 1641 and totally by the British after 1811. Nothing is left today of ‘A Famosa’ (Kota Termashhor).

7/ ‘A Famosa’ (the Castle) was not the name given to a watchtower. The keep was called ‘Torre de Menajem’ (Tower of Homage). ‘A Famosa’ was the name of a castle, about 50 m side with 4 towers, located in the estuary of the river. The name ‘A Famosa’ (Kota Termashhor) was never used by the Portuguese to call the fortified city built later within long walls (1,3km) around the Hill, with 8 Bastions and 4 Gates, they called it ‘Fortaleza’ (Kota Melaka).

8/ The remaining Gate in Banda Hilir (Land Gate/Porta de Santiago) was never part of ‘A Famosa’ (Kota Termashhor) located 400 m away but was one of the four Gates of the ‘Fortaleza’ (Kota Melaka).

9/ Afonso de Albuquerque never “had the fortress built around a natural hill near the sea.” He only built the small castle ‘A Famosa’ in the estuary of the river. The wall around the Hill was started about 20 years after he died, later known as ‘Fortaleza’ (the Fortress).

10/ ‘A Famosa’ never “consisted of long ramparts” but was a squarish structure, a castle 50m side with 4 towers. The tallest tower, the keep was never “known as A Famosa”, but as ‘Torre de Menajem’ (Tower of Homage), it was not 60 m high, but less than 40 (about 20 to 25 m, the eight of the Hill).

RECAPITULATION:

1/ a Castle (50m x 50m) with 4 towers built near the river, named in 1511 by Afonso de Albuquerque ‘A Famosa’ (The Famous), completed in 1514. After the construction of the ‘Fortaleza’ (Fortress), he was known as ‘Fortaleza Velha’ (Old Fort), the Dutch called it ‘Slavenburg’ (Slaves’ Quarter) and the British demolished it after 1811. It should be called in Malay, ‘Kota Termashhor’.

2/ a Keep, the tallest of the 4 towers, 20 m high. It was the residence of the Portuguese Captains, named by the Portuguese ‘Torre de Menajem ‘(Tower of Homage).

3/ a Fortress, which was a fortified wall (1,3km) around the Hill, with 8 Bastions and 4 Gates, built between 1535 and 1565. The Portuguese never called it ‘A Famosa’ (The Famous) but ‘Fortaleza’ (the Fortress), the Dutch and the British, the Fort, the Malay, ‘Kota Melaka’. It was destroyed by the British in 1808, at the exception of:

4/ a Gate, called Porta de Santiago by the Portuguese and Land Gate by the Dutch. Never part of the Castle ‘A Famosa’, built 400 m away. It was one of the four Gates of the Fort. It is today the only vestige left of the Fort.

SOURCES:

1/ Any English / Malay dictionary

2/ Letter from Rui de Brito Palatim, dated 6th January 1514 in ‘Malacca Historical Events and the Moves of Sultan Mahamude from 1512 to 1515, volume 1, Arkib Negara Malaysia, 2012

3/ The Portuguese Historians (Joao de Barros, Gaspar Correia, Fernao Lopes de Castanheda and Damien de Goes) in Portuguese Documents on Malacca from 1509 to 1511, National Archives of Malaysia, 2012.

4/ ‘Report of Governor Balthasar Bort on Malacca’ in JMBRAS, vol. 5, part 1 (1927).

5/ Just have a look at the Bastion

6/ I let you correct the mistakes of Atlas Obscura, just for the fun

7/ The Portuguese Historians (Joao de Barros, Gaspar Correia, Fernao Lopes de Castanheda and Damien de Goes) in Portuguese Documents on Malacca from 1509 to 1511, National Archives of Malaysia, 2012.

8/ Just have a look

9/ ‘Historical Notes on the Portuguese Fortress of Malacca (1511-1641) by Rui Manuel Loureiro in Revista de Cultura n° 27, 2008

10/ The Portuguese Historians (Joao de Barros, Gaspar Correia, Fernao Lopes de Castanheda and Damien de Goes) in Portuguese Documents on Malacca from 1509 to 1511, National Archives of Malaysia, 2012. Pakbelang (talk) 23:55, 4 January 2024 (UTC)