Talk:A Little Night Music

Untitled
Tonight's Wayne State University Opera Workshop production of this musical had a programme book that quoted a large portion of this Wikipedia article, and cited the source as "Source, Wikipedia Encyclopedia" 141.217.25.161 02:25, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Page moved
I have moved this page to A Little Night Music. Its previous title - "A Little Night Music (the film)" - is incorrect: firstly the article is mainly about the stage musical, mentioning the film only briefly; secondly, Wikipedia naming conventions would dictate the page be called A Little Night Music (film) - not "the film", and thirdly, there's no need to disambiguate as A Little Night Music currently exists only as a redirect to this page. UrbaneLegend 15:59, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Musical quotation?
I just realized the other day that near the end of "A Weekend in the Country" it sounds as though SS quotes the very opening of Strauss's Der Rosenkavalier. Anyone else ever notice this? Or is it a coincidence? Or am I dreaming? --Wspencer11 (talk to me...) 15:59, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

No, you aren't dreaming at all. Good ears! The Rosenkavalier horn quote was added by orchestrator Jonathan Tunick, as he reveals in his introduction to the published script of the musical (Applause, 1991, 7). 69.239.185.206 06:13, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

And the orchestration for "Happy Hunting Horn" in Pal Joey quotes even more blatantly Siegfried's horn call from Wagner's Ring. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.234.41.21 (talk) 00:57, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Historical Link of the Story to the last of the Vasas
The youngest son of the founder, Adolf Frederick of Sweden of the House of Holstein-Gottorp a.k.a. the 2nd Vasa dynasty of Sweden, Prince Frederick Adolf of Sweden, Duke of Östergötland and his mistress Sophie Hagman had a daughter, Sophia Frederica, about whom this tale may have been written. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 210.50.16.21 (talk) 08:21, 13 March 2007 (UTC).

Wondering if this issue was already handled...
This article is listed as NPOV (articles needing cleanup, etc.) but I cannot see where that applies. I'm trying to get me feet wet in something "light to medium" so if there's something here needing a fresh perspective, let me know. Otherwise, I'll just move along. Ebonyskye 09:57, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Disputed Neutrality?
Why is this tagged as such? It seemed rather neutral to me

Mme Armsfeldt's Death
When I saw the work onstage I had no idea that Mme Armsfeldt died at the end: all we see is the old woman falling asleep in her wheelchair and there is no subsequent dialogue to make clear what happened. (When the New York City Opera did their version on TV, they were careful to focus the camera on Regina Resnick as she pantomimed a fatal stroke.) Wheeler and Sondheim may have been a little too subtle for their own good, expecting the audience to intuit what was in their minds at that point.

I also want to point out a wierd blooper in the movie version. In the stage version Henrik reads a religious line to Anne and attributes it to Martin Luther. In the movie version, which has been transferred to Catholic Vienna, Henrik reads the SAME LINE and attributes it to Saint Augustine! If the rewriting was that bad, it's no wonder the movie was a flop.

CharlesTheBold (talk) 01:57, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Broadway Production
The dates and places of its New York run are unclearly stated. I'd fix it, but I don't know the reality. Reading the confusing first sentences, I think the play opened at the Shubert on 2/25/73, then moved to the Majestic (still on Broadway?) on 9/17/73, then closed there on 8/3/74 after 601 total performances and 12 previews. If that's the right time line, the article should lay it out in that fashion, IMHO. Lou Sander (talk) 01:32, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Fredrika's father
The article states that Fredrika is "Desiree's daughter, born of the actress's and Fredrik's affair (unbeknownst to Fredrik)." It is not actually stated in the play that Fredrika is Fredrik's daughter. It might seem logical to assume that she is his daughter, but the play is ambigious on this to the point of not even mentioning who Fredrika's father might be. The question is not raised even once; in fact, when Fredrik learns of Fredrika's name, Desirée laughs and says "as if you were the only Fredrik in the world", and that's the closest we get to an answer. All this is a long-winded way of saying that I don't think this article should state that Fredrik is Fredrika's father, as this is only conjecture. ▫ Urbane Legend chinwag 16:15, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Interesting point, Urbane_Legend. I'll look around for some on-line discussion of this, as time permits. Stephen Citron clearly states that Fredrik is Fredrika's father in his book, Sondheim and Lloyd-Webber, page 201 ( Citron reference). Joanne Gordon, in her book Art Isn't Easy, page 123, also states the same: "...Desiree's daughter, Fredrika, the result of Desiree's and Fredrik's previous dalliance." ( Gordon reference).
 * This discussion could use a few scholars! JeanColumbia (talk) 12:21, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
 * It doesn't need scholars, it just needs people like you and me who care enough about the topic to be bothered to research and discuss it :-)
 * The references you cite are compelling, and as I say, while it's logical to assume that Fredrika is Fredrik's daughter, (for what it's worth I think she is and really there's no reason to think otherwise) it's not actually confirmed in the primary source - that is, the show itself. In the spirit of being bold, I might reword the article to express this minor ambiguity. ▫ Urbane Legend chinwag 11:57, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

I recently re-watched Ingmar Bergman's "Smiles of a Summer Night", the film on which A Little Night Music is based. Care is, of course, needed in basing conclusions about the musical on the plot of the movie, as Sondheim and his collaborators made some signficant changes. This said, here goes. In the movie, Desiree has a son, Fredrik, rather than a daughter, and the son is clearly several years younger than Fredrika is in the musical. The film does definitely maintain the ambiguity over the paternity of Desiree's child which I believe survives in the musical. Towards the very end of the movie, when Fredrik and Desiree come together after the elopement of his wife and son, he challenges her that she must tell him why she named her son Fredrik. With a twinkle in her eye, all she will say is that it's a nice name for a little boy, isn't it? It seems to me that both the film and the musical allow those viewers who wish to do so to assume that Fredrik is the father of Desiree's child (as the authors quoted above have evidently done), but do not in fact offer any categorical statement that this is indeed the case. Nandt1 (talk) 11:40, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Orig Research
There is an Original Research tag with some very clearly NNPOV, thesis-like observations that have remained since Nov 2007...I'm removing them. 207.237.33.106 (talk) 10:30, 16 February 2009 (UTC)


 * "Sondheim, Wheeler and Harold Prince (who directed the film version) created a work that is far more complex and sophisticated than first appearances might suggest. The characters, from royalty to bourgeoisie to servant, present a cross section of Swedish society at that particular place and time. The characters' ages range from adolescent (Desiree's daughter) to elderly (Madame Armfeldt). Each character's views on life, love and sex are explored in depth and with great compassion and humor. (Sondheim went so far as to write a song for the otherwise mute manservant Frid, which was cut in previews, because, as Prince barked at him one evening, "Who cares what Frid thinks?") The "Weekend in the Country" that the characters spend is at the height of midsummer, which in Sweden means that the sun never sets completely. The characters wander around the vast estate and grounds bathed in a golden twilight. This hazy, limbo-like setting allows them to explore their passions and realize who it is and what it is that they truly desire. "  207.237.33.106 (talk) 10:31, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
 * "Sondheim, Wheeler and Harold Prince (who directed the film version) created a work that is far more complex and sophisticated than first appearances might suggest. The characters, from royalty to bourgeoisie to servant, present a cross section of Swedish society at that particular place and time. The characters' ages range from adolescent (Desiree's daughter) to elderly (Madame Armfeldt). Each character's views on life, love and sex are explored in depth and with great compassion and humor. (Sondheim went so far as to write a song for the otherwise mute manservant Frid, which was cut in previews, because, as Prince barked at him one evening, "Who cares what Frid thinks?") The "Weekend in the Country" that the characters spend is at the height of midsummer, which in Sweden means that the sun never sets completely. The characters wander around the vast estate and grounds bathed in a golden twilight. This hazy, limbo-like setting allows them to explore their passions and realize who it is and what it is that they truly desire. "  207.237.33.106 (talk) 10:31, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Why is the title said to be "a mistranslation" or "a very loose translation" of Mozart's?
Would someone with better German than mine please explain why the title is not an accurate literal translation of Mozart's Eine Kleine Nachtmusik? The text previously stated that A Little Night Music was "a mistranslation" of Mozart's title. After I challenged that statement, it is now stated to be "a very loose translation". Please tell us what the problem is? Eine=A; Kleine=Little; Nachtmusik=Night Music. What's the problem, please? Nandt1 (talk) 11:48, 19 June 2009 (UTC)


 * In a nutshell, the German word "Nachtmusik" actually means "serenade", not "night music". There's a good discussion of this on the page about the Mozart piece - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Serenade_No._13_(Mozart) Rgoogin (talk) 20:16, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Might I suggest that we call it an "overly literal" translation? Nandt1 (talk) 19:07, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

In German there are two words for little: wenig and klein. Klein refers to size, more like small, such as a small boy, whereas wenig refers to amount, like a little of, such as a little of the language. Therefore, if Mozart meant "A Little Night Music," he would have titled it "Ein Wenig Nachtmusik." It's safe to say that he meant "A Little Serenade." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.215.83.96 (talk) 22:36, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Although I wrote this before I looked at the other article, that's also the general conclusion. Thank you, Ajrocke, and Boxing Wear-BWear-Miranda, for knowing exactly what you were talking about. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.215.83.96 (talk) 23:20, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Turn of which century?
Okay, I'll bite. In the synopsis, the turn-of-the-20th-Century recently got changed to the 19th Century. I have always understood that the "turn-of-the-century" phrase meant that the century mentioned was just beginning...so the turn of the 20th century would have been around 1900. So is the story really set around 1800? I wouldn't have thought so, but am happy to listen to what anyone has to say on the matter. Maybe it would be better to say something like "at the beginning of the X century" or something...? --Wspencer11 (talk to me...) 17:03, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Hi, Wspencer11, thanks for bringing this up. I have spent the last few hours searching google, google books, ibdb, a few books I own on Sondheim, even reading the original NY Times review. I can not access the script, which probably would give the answer.  Nothing I found specified which "turn of the century". (Original Clive Barnes review says "It is set in Sweden at the turn of the century")  I saw the 2009 Broadway revival; this is what the Playbill says: ""Time: Turn of the last Century. Place: Sweden"


 * Well, I suppose that the last century is 20th Century, since we are now in the 21 Century. So, the edit that changed to 19th Century does not appear accurate. Here is my proposal ( I will return to this on September 4 or 5, but after that probably not until Sept. 27):JeanColumbia (talk) 19:47, 3 September 2010 (UTC)


 * To add: here is the script, although I don't know what version; the publication date is 2000:   [Four by Sondheim, Wheeler, Lapine, Shevelove and Gelbart, Volume 3, see page 174]. Page 174: "Time: Turn of the Century Place:Sweden".  See also page 166: "Since A Little Night Music is European in setting, turn-of-the-century in time..." (Page 166 was written by Jonathan Tunick, New York, September 1990.)  If there are clues as to which century within the script, I can not find them.JeanColumbia (talk) 20:48, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Proposal I propose that the sentence in the  first sentence of the synopsis be revised to read "It is Sweden at the turn of the last 20th Century". JeanColumbia (talk) 19:47, 3 September 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm afraid I'm not completely convinced by the proposal, but I just thought of something: I know there are references to traveling by motorcar in the book, and I think there might be references to traveling by train also. If so, then the period would have to be around 1900, since neither existed around 1800. --Wspencer11 (talk to me...) 16:13, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Well done! On page 270 of the book I referenced: "Off, we hear a car-horn"; on page 271: "Carl-Magnus helps Charlotte out of the car". On page 310, "Anne: Silly Henrick! Quick, or we'll miss the train!"JeanColumbia (talk) 16:35, 5 September 2010 (UTC) I'd say the car reference puts the time period late 1800s, early 1900s, and since all references refer to "Turn of the Century", it looks like that would be 20th Century. I realize that this might be considered original research or synthesis and so I will not change he article until there are further comments. I will, however, modify my proposal to read "turn of the 20th Century" (in other words, where it was before the subject edit!).JeanColumbia (talk) 16:42, 5 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Why couldn't it read "around 1900" if the turn-of-the-century phrase is too dangerous? --Wspencer11 (talk to me...) 02:19, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

The synthesis prohibition does not prohibit obvious corrections. It is clearly the turn of the 20th century. -- Ssilvers (talk) 03:39, 8 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Uummmmmmm...sorry to be dense, but what's the "synthesis prohibition?" --Wspencer11 (talk to me...) 12:51, 8 September 2010 (UTC)


 * If it is 1900, then it is turn of the century and it's still 19th century. ELSchissel (talk) 16:43, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

Trivia section lack significance
The trivia section at the bottom, regarding the character names, is sourced. However, I still question its significance to the article. It implies ignorance on the creators' part, when in fact these were the same character names as used in "Smiles of a Summer Night," which was an actual Swedish film directed by an actual Swedish director and starring actual Swedish actors. It seems to me that if there were anything that unusual or controversial about the names, somebody might have objected when Bergman made his film. Perhaps these are actual Swedish names, but the families have died off or moved away? ChrisStansfield Contribs 18:27, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

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Madame Armfeldt
Her first name is given in passing as "Leonora" during the introduction to "A Weekend in the Country". ELSchissel (talk) 16:39, 15 July 2021 (UTC)