Talk:A Midsummer Night's Dream/Archive 1

First entries on this page
where was it first performed?

The theatre! it was first performed in the theatre.


 * According to :
 *  On account of the central theme of marriages, and the inclusion of a royal wedding, it is thought that Shakespeare wrote A Midsummer Night's Dream in celebration of a particular wedding. Exactly whose wedding is the matter of scholarly debate, as is the exact date of the play's writing and first performance. It is believed to come from Shakespeare's lyric period of 1594-1596, due to the writing style and also to references in the play to events of that time. 
 * It is defined as a pretty broad time period. &#9999; Sverdrup 16:41, 19 Jun 2004 (UTC)


 * I can't find any source backing up the assertion it was Sir Thomas Berkeley's wedding. Can anyone else fact check this? Lotsofissues 08:36, 8 May 2005 (UTC)


 * How about a scene by scene breakdown on the play?

Synopsis
I think the opening of the Synopsis section should be re-written. It should say in the opening sentence that the play is set in the Greek city of Athens. At the moment it mentions that Theseus is Duke of Athens, but nowhere in the synopsis does it mention where the play is set. JP Godfrey 09:02, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Movie adaptations
I have linked the dates in all the versions to the pages on www.imdb.com for that version. I did not use the IMDB template because I thought it would be neater just linking from the dates instead of having "A Midsummer Night's Dream at The Internet Movie Database" under every sub-section of that section. JP Godfrey 10:37, 27 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Added A Midsummer Night's Rave, someone who's seen the movie recently might consider adding some detail though. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.179.17.31 (talk) 12:19, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Modern performances
I added the below paragraph, which apparently is not considered relevant as it is just one of the thousands of adaptations. Personally, I still believe it is of interest, as it shows how Shakespeare's work lives on in our post-industrialised and globalising society.

An argument was also that it is not mentioned in academic sources. Well, I must have misunderstood what Wikipedia is all about, as I thought that --- as opposed to conventional encyclopædias --- it was supposed to be for everyone, and by everyone. Pity. Wanted to share this interesting piece of information.

Numerous are the inventive and alternative performances of one of Shakespeare's most popular plays. One example is the multilingual Dream 2007, which the New World Theatre Club set up under the direction of Tony Kingston as part of the European Capital of Culture festivities in Luxembourg. Although set in a post-industrial environment, the original dialogue was kept for the fairies, and translated into German for the upper-class Athenians, Luxembourgish (the first known translation into this language) for the lower-class, whereas the songs were in French, thus depicting the multi-cultural nature of contemporary Luxembourg and Europe, and its conflicts and misunderstandings.

Bjørn Clasen (talk) 21:10, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
 * [reflist-talk added retroactively. --Xover (talk) 08:15, 2 October 2016 (UTC)]

Intro?
This article lacks an intro which would provide a short overview of the contents. Zocky | picture popups 14:52, 3 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Good point then bob has one now! Please improve it as you see fit. The Singing Badger 16:13, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Given that a go, see what you think Green the Ninja (talk) 09:00, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Comic Strip Adaptation
There is an adaptation of this play ongoing at this time in the comic strip "Pibgorn" by Brooke McEldowney tharkun860 05:19, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Weird redirect
Currently 'Midsummer Night's Dream' leads to a page about a rather dodgy looking Japanese animated film. Somehow I think Shakespeare's works will be searched for more than the dubiously renowned 'Oh My Goddess' series, so I'd heartily suggest a switch around of the search priorities. I'd do it myself, but I'm not quite sure how.
 * I think it's fine as it is. That article really is called Midsummer Night's Dream: it's not a redirect, and it has a prominent link to Shakespeare's play right at the top of the page. AndyJones 20:10, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Oh, I'm not doubting the validity of the other page, and the redirect is quite helpful, just suggesting a disambiguation page - after all, as you note, the titles are the same aside from the indefinite article. I'm not going to go for some rampant snobbish approach claiming that some inherent superiority of Shakespeare over all over works of art - it would just be handy and rather less confusing for the searcher to be given a choice of Dreams. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 129.67.115.253 (talk • contribs).

Date and Sources
Apuleius And the Golden Ass.

I would like to elaborate on the post of Andy Jones (see next) to say that it is a most short-sighted deletion to fail to mention the work of Apuleius, The Golden Ass, circa 100 CE ( see Wikipedia article on this) with a similar plot antedating by far much of this work and forms a sub-plot of same. His character Lucius is changed into an ass by a magician and goes through numerous crude and asinine adventures about dis-functional relationships before being advised by the Queen Of Heaven (aka Goddess Isis) to eat some roses and be changed back into a human again, and as a result turns over a new leaf to lead a better life. He then devotes his life to the Goddess Isis, the predominant worshipped God at that time, resulting in a conversion of the character Lucius from common and sordid life to a better life, a meaning which is somewhat lost in Midsummer Night's Dream.172.90.186.234 (talk) 02:03, 25 October 2015 (UTC)Dr. Raymond Schep.

Hey

Copying the following directly from the article space. I think we need to work through this piece by piece before it's accepted on the page. As it is, it's too ungrammatical to go in, and the previous version is better:


 * While some claim "there is no known source for the plot of A Midsummer Night's Dream, although individual elements can be traced to classical literature; for example, the story of Pyramus and Thisbe is told in Ovid's Metamorphoses and the transformation of Bottom into an ass is descended from Apuleius' The Golden Ass; Shakespeare would have studied both texts at school if he had attended a school, which cannot be proven.
 * On the other hand, A Midsummer Night's Dream is well established to base on North's translation of Plutarch Lives'' in this case on the Life of Theseus, see more under the heading of "Shakespeare." []
 * It is also known, as G. B. Harrison notes in his commentary in his Complete Works, to base on the baptism of Prince Henry of Scotland, an event that took place on the 20/30 August 1594.
 * Indeed Dream's primary plot, concerning Theseus and his laws or constitution of Athens, is primarily a distillation of North's study of Theseus's life. Diplomatic historians and scholars of Scottish history, foremost of which remains Otto J. Scott, know that King James VI. of Scotland, later James I., consolidated the rule of Scotland that same year, through new laws and that he like Theseus held a contest for the celebration of Prince Henry's baptism.
 * Scott reports James even addressed invitations, wrote some of the masques and appeared in one himself, as a "Knight of Malta." So under the surface, there is a strong, tangible historic connection between Dream, King James VI, Prince Henry and Theseus. Strong enough to assure those who look beneath the surface that Dream was brimming with political undertows, as had been Marlowe's Edward II and Hamlet, both of which are oblique studies of James VI.  Since this knowledge of James and Scotland was then closely held diplomatic intelligence, communicated in alphanumeric cypher, examples of which are extant, it is difficult to understand how Shakespeare came by this intelligence, but rather simple to suppose how Marlowe, as Burghley "spy" and Scottish projector, came by his information.
 * In any case, "Shakespeare" contrives to signal us of his debt to North by having Dream enter history on the 8th of October 1600, or the same day and month that North claimed Athens celebrated Theseus's return on [51].
 * It's part of a remarkable registration cycle linking works of Marlowe and Shakespeare to dates of importance to the works in question or events in Marlowe's life. For example, Marlowe's Edward II entered history on the 6th of July or the same day its action opens on, the first Friday of the month, Edward I had died on that same day in 1307.
 * "Shakespeare's" 1 Henry VI, which wasn't entered until 1623, entered on the 8th of November, or the day its action proposed "young Henry King." Francis Meres, like Marlowe a Cambridge scholar,  who had written Wits Treasury, contrived on the 7th of September 1598 to have it entered on Elizabeth I.'s birthday.  Someone was tracking dates.
 * The play contains dramatic exchanges between a scholar named "Baldock" and his mentor, a courtier, named "Spenser" or "Spencer," wherein Baldock confesses to his mentor that he'd lost his position as "reader" to the King's "niece," which he'd had "since she was a child," by through which he'd "hope[d] ... by her means to be preferred." (II.2.29-30) Upon which Spenser advises his young friend, "Then, Baldock, you must cast the scholler off." (32) This appears to allude to Marlowe's employment as "attendant" and "reader" to Lady Arbella Stuart [], which he lost in September 1592.
 * In any case, Edward II, first entered history on 6 July 1593, the first Friday, a month or so after Marlowe was reportedly slain in Deptford, Kent.  Yet it entered history on the same day it's action opens on, Edward's father having died on 7 July 1307, also the first Friday.  Marlowe's and Shakespeare's plays entered history either on days of importance to the action or Marlowe.
 * For example, three works said Shakespeare's, Pericles, Anthony and Cleopatra and the Sonnets, all entered history on the 20/30 of May, in consecutive years, under the hands of separate publishers. Marlowe was released from the Privy Council's summons on the 20th and supposedly died on the 30th.  The Sonnets, which were excluded from "Shakespeare's" canon by the anonymous editors of the [], chronicle Marlowe's life, "death," resurrection and exile, a biography, of the contenders, that fits only Marlowe.
 * So the registration date of Dream is of paramount importance to studies of the play, as is its oblique Scottish context. Diplomatic historians understand it, while Stratfordians claim not to.

I'll come back later in the day to review this. In the meantime, I'll revert to the previous version. AndyJones 12:26, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

For ease of reference, here's the diff. AndyJones 12:37, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Starting to break this down:
 * Opening sentence: no change to content, introduces a grammatical error ("While" with no balancing clause). Better before.
 * Cannot be proved Shakespeare went to school. Depends where you come from: the author of the plays clearly went to school (or, at least, he'd clearly learned his Ovid somewhere) so only an anti-Stratfordian would consider this point worth making. May I suggest that we agree that in this article we are using "Shakespeare" to mean "whoever wrote the play", a convention which I understand to be acceptable to Stratfordians and Anti-Stratfordians (who call the man from Stratford-upon-Avon "Shaksper")? In that context, this change is unnecessary, too.
 * Next paragraph is true in factual content: Shakespeare probably knew of Theseus from North's Plutarch's Lives. It's very badly expressed here, though. Sorry, but the existing article makes the point with better grammar. The link isn't a good one, but if it were necessary it should be done with a wiki link: we don't use full hypertext links between pages of Wikipedia.
 * Having said that, the text linked to is extremely bizarre. See this diff, which I have reverted.
 * G. B. Harrison's point. Don't get it. How can somebody's baptism possibly be a source? Is anyone able to check what Harrison really said, and let us know whether it's worthy of inclusion in the article? As written it's nonsense, I'm afraid.
 * That brings us to two lengthy paragraphs about an alleged Theseus/James/Henry link. It is too hard to understand what is being said. Does anyone want to look up Scott to find out if he says anything worth citing in this article?
 * Unfortunately, this essay then wanders further out into the left-field, with all this stuff about dates. I've read it, but I've no idea what the blipping-flip the editor is trying to tell us. Suppose all these dates are true... but I'm not going there. This isn't mainstream scholarship. What are footnotes like "[51]" and "(36)" telling us? And 1H6 doesn't have characters called Baldock and Spenser. And Edward II is Marlowe, not Shakespeare...
 * ...which brings us to the point: that this essay is here to demonstrate that Marlowe wrote Shakespeare. Well, ho-hum. I can only say that if the Marlovian case is this bad, it's no wonder it's not become widely accepted.


 * Sorry, I've lost patience with this. Also, I'm on wiki-holiday for a week. Does anyone have anything to say in favour of this edit? AndyJones 22:45, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
 * PS, I've found Baldock and Spenser: they're in Edward II. AndyJones 22:53, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

In universe
This article reads like a plot summary of A Midsummer Night's Dream. As per Manual of Style, the article should concentrate on explaining and dicussing, rather simply repeating, the plot. See Twelfth Night, or What You Will for an example of better writing. smurrayinch e ster(User), (Talk) 15:15, 20 September 2006 (UTC)


 * The Dream synopsis tells you what happens in the play. The Twelfth Night synopsis explains a few things that happen in the play without much detail and includes some vague, avowedly unresearched comments about the play's setting. Could you be clearer about why this is better? The Singing Badger 16:27, 20 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree with Singing Badger. Apart from being rather less in-universe, I cannot see any reason why Twelfth Night should be hailed as a model article to emulate. AndyJones 18:05, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
 * No, I'll go further. I've just re-read it and Twelfth Night is too short, and is quite a poorly written article. Here's my proposal: let's conspire to make Twelfth Night a great article which we can proudly point Wikipedians to and ask them to emulate. Anyone with me? AndyJones 18:58, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm with you in an I'm-actually-too-busy kind of way. :) We definitely need one stand-out Shakespeare play article. Frankly, they're all abysmal. The Singing Badger 19:11, 20 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree; there's no all round good Shakespeare on Wikipedia; either it's like Romeo and Juliet, which has the information, but is long, waffling and often trivial, or it's like Twelfth Night; more encyclopaedic, but shorter. smurrayinch e ster(User), (Talk) 20:02, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Film adaptation error
If I am not mistaken, Michelle Pieffer played Titania, not Helena.

I didn't want to mess around with it because I do not know for sure. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.31.161.11 (talk) 06:53, 11 April 2007 (UTC).

A midsummer night's dream input
A midsummer night's dream has and interesting history, yet is mistaken as simple. Demetrius loves hermia ( helena later ) Helena loves demetrius Hermia loves Lysander Lysander loves Hermia ( Helena later ) You see, for the children in my sixth-grade class this is an easy read, but is hard to understand. People underestimate the powerfulness of confusion —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.233.250.157 (talk) 22:32, 2 May 2007 (UTC).

Bottom
The article states during the character listing that bottom is very full of himself, although it is a fair comment I think it is much too simple. The character of Bottom is at times somewhat overbearing of Quince, yet throughout his exchanges, Shakespeare makes it clear to the audience that Quince is the leader of the group. In act 1 scene 2 Bottom refers to Quince as "good Peter Quince" on several occasions, this mode of the address indicates that Bottom is always aware of Quince's importance. Also, Peter Quince's remark "bully Bottom" implies that the two are friends. "bully" now implying an overbearing, cruel person, was intended to mean ebullience. The bottom is an enthusiastic and lively character which may be perceived by the audience as someone who is overconfident. Yet Shakespeare's portrayal of him leads to a more, I think, likeable character who is more misguided than anything. Its just a suggestion, i mean poor Bottom has to deal with those cruel Athenians insulting his fellow players, i just thought that we could give him a better image. louise

Snug the joiner.
Why is there no mention of Snug's first name. I've read the play and it only gives the first names of the lower-classed citizens except Snug. If anyone can work out the name, can they add it please.☺ E fansayT/C☺ 06:20, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Fairy
Another query about the character list, isn't there an unnamed fairy who talks to Puck named Fairy, as the play I have read says. ☺ E fansayT/C☺ 06:40, 6 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, it's First Fairy and the character should be added. Sydneysaurus 14:16, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

The play in list of literature about the play
Should the play itself really be on the list of books? Or is there a novel entitled 'Shakespeare's A Midsummer Night's Dream?'--Romulus 04:53, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

There is, well technically the script of the play which you can buy. ☺ E fansayT/C☺ 09:36, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Consistency
Just for the sake of consistency with the project page guidelines, should the positions of the sections Analysis and criticism and Performance history be switched?Bardofcornish (talk) 16:05, 21 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Possibly, but it might be better just to delete the whole analysis section until someone has time to write something less juvenile. What is there is an embarrassment. Thruston (talk) 22:38, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

GrooveLily adaptation
Are the 2006 McCarter Theatre and Paper Mill Playhouse adaptations of A Midsummer Night's Dream notable enough for the article? It featured songs by the band GrooveLily, was directed by Tina Landau, and actress Lea DeLaria played Bottom. I saw it numerous time (and I own the CD), and I'd be happy to add some info to the article, if appropriate.Yaypartyline (talk) 14:48, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I think the answer to the question depends on what sources you've got. AndyJones (talk) 18:34, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Sources or not, the McCarter and Paper Mill are notable companies and Midsummer Night's Dream a notable play; ipso facto the productions are likewise. — Robert Greer (talk) 21:47, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
 * No, it depends on sources. It's not for us to say what is ipso facto notable. If there are reliable sources which say so then they are. Otherwise they are not. WP: V isn't some sideline issue that we ignore when we feel like it. It is a core policy of Wikipedia, and is the foundation upon which this project rests. AndyJones (talk) 07:28, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Sandman
There's a reference to a Midsummers Nights Dream in the Sandman graphic novel series by Neil Gaiman, I seen since xXxHolic has rated a mention, this should be added as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.95.7.225 (talk) 07:22, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Ambiguous Sexuality section
Uh... what's this section trying to say?

As of right now, it seems to explain the disclaimers of some guy (who seems neither notable nor significant, having neither an article - or at least a link to one in that section - nor any description of who he is), who apparently had some things to say about the play... not REALLY having any homosexual connotations abnormal for its time, but still apparently having some. Or something.

I don't know. It is so pointless, how it is now. 67.80.64.172 (talk) 06:56, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

File:Midsummer Night's Dream Henry Fuseli2.jpg to appear as POTD soon
Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File:Midsummer Night's Dream Henry Fuseli2.jpg will be appearing as picture of the day on July 7, 2010. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2010-07-07. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page so Wikipedia doesn't look bad. :) Thanks!  howcheng  {chat} 17:18, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

Some critiques
The first entry under 20 -21st Century says: "Herbert Beerbohm Tree staged a 1911 production with live rabbits." That's all? Didn't the bunnies have trouble remembering their lines? This article seems like a patchwork of brief claims, mostly lacking citations. I came to learn and leave befuddled. Can people with knowledge of this play, it's history, its historical context, it's critical reception and analysis, and its background meanings and symbolism please work on sharpening it up? Thank you for your time, Wordreader (talk) 21:31, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

File: Edwin Landseer - Scene from A Midsummer Night's Dream. Titania and Bottom - Google Art Project.jpg to appear as POTD
Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File: Edwin Landseer - Scene from A Midsummer Night's Dream. Titania and Bottom - Google Art Project.jpg will be appearing as picture of the day on October 2, 2014. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template: POTD/2014-10-02. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page. Thanks! — Crisco 1492 (talk) 01:33, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

#Themes in the story
Themes in the *story*...? A somewhat strangely worded heading, imo. The content seems strongly weighted towards interpretative POVs based on movements such as queer theory and feminism (oh, and while we're at it, how about themes such as drugs and climate change?) I wouldn't suggest such POVs don't have a legitimate place on the page, but they currently seem to outweigh mainstream historical literary scholarship. 86.174.48.45 (talk) 16:24, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I think the entire "Themes" section should be redone to conform more to the project suggested guidelines (here). This would help locate the particular critical interpretations within the larger critical history.Golden122306 (talk) 01:58, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
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New York City's Pace University
I do not see the modern rock 'n roll or "hippie"/"love child"? version of A Midnight Summer's Dream put on at Pace in my recollection 2010. Somehow, I wound up attending this production. I had seen the movie somewhere around Cal-Berkeley, where I was forced to study The Tempest in intensive 1B. I did catch a glimpse of the viewing of MacBeth on a television at the Coops, I believe. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2604:2000:E94B:5C00:FD04:93A2:68C0:13AD (talk) 14:26, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

Who is Cena
There is only one mention of an author named Cena, but not where he makes the claim that is attributed to him. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.40.184.76 (talk) 08:07, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I've added maintenance tags to the relevant bit so other editors will see that it needs fixing. Thanks for catching it and letting us know! --Xover (talk) 09:12, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

Puck/Robin Goodfellow
In the 'Religion' section there is a claim that is has been 'well established for two centuries' that Puck and Robin Goodfellow are names for the Devil in English folklore. No source is given for this claim. This claim is false, and is contradicted by the Wikipedia article on Puck/Robin Goodfellow. ("In English folklore, Puck, sometimes known as Robin Goodfellow, is a domestic and nature sprite, demon, or fairy.". Puck is a mischievous nature spirit, and Robin Goodfellow is a euphemistic name similar to 'Wise Woman' for Witch, or 'The Old Gentleman' for the Devil.

Since the whole 'Religion' section is full of unknown authors, 'citation needed' etc, perhaps the whole section is best deleted due to its low information-to-noise ratio, though I don't dare to do that on my own. ChengduTeacher (talk) 14:18, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
 * The text was added 15:41, 22 December 2007 by an editor who made ten edits within a few days, and no others. The text was commented out for years, but part of it was later restored as visible text. Rather than tagging it as citation needed, I suggest that anything suspect be removed. A standard procedure would be to copy the wikitext to here in case another editor wants to later work on it. Johnuniq (talk) 23:09, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Deleted 'Religious' section following your suggestion. It's possible that something sensible could be said about AMSND and religion, but this isn't it. Attaching deleted material below my signature, again following your suggestion. ChengduTeacher (talk) 13:29, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

Deletion of 'Religious' section
For reasons for deletion, see above. Deleted text is below if anyone wants it.

It has been well established for two centuries that Puck and Robin Goodfellow are both names for the devil from English folklore. Cena argues that the character of 'Wall' acted by Snout represents the partition that exists between Earth and Heaven and that comes down on the day of Apocalypse. Pyramus and Thisbe are a late Renaissance allegory for Jesus and the Christian Church, and that the source of the names Peter (petros, Greek for a stone), and Quince (quoin, a term for a wedge shaped cornerstone) suggests his identity as St Peter.[Parker, 1998] The play-within-a-play therefore can be a religious satire. The allegorical dimension was extended to the other characters and demonstrated in performance by the Dark Lady Players in a New York production in March 2007.
 * I merged this with the previous section and copied the references from the article. Thanks for removing the dubious text. Johnuniq (talk) 00:39, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
 * I merged this with the previous section and copied the references from the article. Thanks for removing the dubious text. Johnuniq (talk) 00:39, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
 * I merged this with the previous section and copied the references from the article. Thanks for removing the dubious text. Johnuniq (talk) 00:39, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

18th Century
This section (6.1.2) includes several references to criticism written in the 1800s; i.e. the 19th Century -- an obvious confusion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Stodder (talk • contribs) 19:16, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

Movie
The midsummer nights dream 2A00:23C6:4E0C:6E01:F83D:EA4B:EA73:7B19 (talk) 10:41, 1 June 2022 (UTC)


 * Can you be more specific? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:25, 1 June 2022 (UTC)