Talk:A Separate Peace

Theory
In all actuality, John Knowles was gay. One theory is that this novel was written as a way to express repressed homosexual tendencies to a society where homosexuality was not prevalent at the time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.227.44.148


 * While I feel the section on the homoerotic tones is well written, it violates NPOV and doesn't sound encyclopedic. A rewrite is desirable. --Hench 04:16, 27 April 2006 (UTC)


 * ^There is, as yet, no authoritative text available to the public indicating that Knowles was gay. . . or that he was straight. In John Ibson's The Mourning After: Loss and Longing among Midcentury American Men, Knowles' sister is asked point-blank if she believes her brother was gay, and she replies that had no idea why her brother never married. In the absence of a lover producing some verifiable love letters or the like, the question of Knowles' sexuality died with him. What we do know is that there were many gay men in his social world, Capote and Vidal among them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.98.30.221 (talk) 19:38, 8 January 2020 (UTC)

I want to point out that John Knowles did in fact have a wife, Beth Anne Dyment Hughes, whom he married in 1945. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Special:Contributions/38.103.168.4/38.103.168.4
 * ^This is incorrect. Anne Dyment Hughes was married to a different John Knowles. No spouse was named in this John Knowles' obit, and as I have noted above, his sister acknowledged that he never married. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.98.30.221 (talk) 19:38, 8 January 2020 (UTC)

Knowles wanted ASP to concern the human condition and not be reduced to some kind of homoerotic thriller. I knew him personally for 20 years..I never saw him with any 'wife'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:AB88:81:D800:84EC:64CA:EE7F:5162 (talk) 20:34, 9 April 2018 (UTC)


 * The evidence to date does not suggest John Knowles was "In all actuality" gay. The novel may have been written, as effused by the author John Knowles himself, as a story of fraternal connection. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jmaioran

transwiki to wikibooks maybe
I agree that this section is not formated like an article in an encyclopedia. It's not an informative encyclopedic article as much as it is a thesis or a book report. Wikibooks has summaries like this, I think?

there should be something on the gay themes in the book
I just finished reading the book for the first time and the theme of homosexuality can not be avoided. It is evident that there is some sort of thing going on from even a cursory reading. Not to mention that all boy prep schools are known to have a certain level of homosexuality among them either in fact or in lore. There teall should be something about the gay themes in the book since they are almost rampant in the work.

I will point out that in the books I have read explaining the hiddden meanings and themes in the book, that it always described Phineas and Gene as "doubles" who were codependent on each other.

Evidence of Homosexuality in A Separate Peace
--	"Nothing endures, not a tree, not love, not a death by violence." As one reads the first chapter, this statement feels like it is meant to be the novel's thesis. Let's break it down. "Not a tree." The narrator feels that the mighty tree which in a way took his best friend's life has perished. "Not a death by violence." He seems to feel that he's finally gotten over Finny's death. But what about that phrase between the two? "Not love." Obviously, Gene is telling us that his beloved, the one thing he cherished above all else, is gone. What could that be? Or, more appropriately, who could that be? It's quite plain that it could definitely be, and in fact probably is, Finny. Just how Gene loved him is not explicitly stated, but as with all works of literature or anything else, for that matter, we must infer from what is given and reach a logical conclusion. -- 	"Gene is a lonely, introverted intellectual. Phineas is a handsome, taunting, daredevil athlete. What happens between the two one summer, like the war itself, banishes the innocence of them and their world." That sounds like the back of a typical romance novel, doesn't it? But no, it is the summary found on the back of almost any copy of any edition of "A Separate Peace". On a similar note, the motion picture adaptation has been published in a list of the 50 greatest romance films of the 20th century. Clearly more people than one have seen in this story the possibility of a couple. -- 	The wrestling scene in an early chapter of the book has often been criticized as having homoerotic undertones, such slight hints that one could easily simply ignore or say "boys will be boys", the only things possible for Knowles to include without his entire novel being ignored. "I threw my hip against his, catching him by surprise, and he was instantly down, definitely pleased. This was why he liked me so much. When I jumped on top of him, my knees on his chest, he couldn't ask for anything better." Even with the words "my knees on his chest" which are generally omitted in arguments using this quote, one has to admit that the lines still sound suspicious. The narrator at this point in the story is a sixteen-year-old schoolboy, the likes of which as a group are notorious for thinking only of sex. Construe from this information what you will. -- 	The whole situation with the pink shirt could easily have been left out without taking anything from the story. Knowles could simply have made Finny's emblem the wearing of the school tie as a belt. But perhaps it was included to make the reader aware of homosexuality as he read, to subliminally introduce it as a possible undercurrent storyline. Finny doesn't care if Gene or others think he looks like "a fairy", and he even suggests of the other male students that "suitors may begin clamoring at the door" without the least discomfort. While these may have been used to indicate his general nonchalance, it could also easily be construed that Phineas has thought about this concept before, so much as to become comfortable with the idea. (I'm adding onto this as I feel this is an important sidenote on the pink shirt that makes it all the more prominent example of homosexuality within 'A Separate Peace': In 1930-40s a pink triangle became a Nazi concentration camp badge, distinguishing those imprisoned who had were found out to be gay men. It has since been reconsidered and taken by the community as sign of pride, but the fact that the shirt was specifically pink in a war which marked gay men with badges of such color cannot easily be a coincidence.) -- 	The night at the beach is one of the biggest indications that Finny might also have feelings for Gene. He convinces his friend to go on a three-hour- long bike ride just to get there, then they go swimming together in the ocean. Finally, they both have a glass of beer and settle down to rest, side by side as they watch the sunset. Phineas begins his "usual nighttime monologue", making sure Gene had a good time and finally explaining that the only proper person for a teenaged boy to bring to the beach with him was his best friend. A hesitant pause follows, before "Which is what you are." Here is the same young man, always rash and bold, unashamed to be thought of as gay; and yet totally unconfident when it comes to telling his best friend how he feels. We are not truly sure if he even succeeds. There is also the time when Dr. Stanpole informs Gene before he goes to see Finny after his fall, "He wanted especially to see you. You were the one person he asked for." Gene is the one person at school Phineas cares about most. -- 	One of the things Gene struggles with so much about himself are his feelings towards his best friend. He doesn't quite seem to know what they are, but he certainly doesn't feel comfortable with them, and he definitely doesn't like them. It is arguable throughout the novel that this is partly because his feelings are more than friendship. Though we never learn for certain what Finny feels, through quotes like "I was used to finding something deadly in things that attracted me; there was always something deadly lurking in anything I wanted, anything I loved. And if it wasn't there, as for example with Phineas, then I put it there myself." Knowles makes obvious to the reader the kind of feelings hidden within Gene, who carefully covers them except in such moments as these when he unwittingly lets his guard down. Completely unawares, he outright tells his listener that he is indeed attracted to Phineas; not only that, but Gene wants him, Gene loves him. -- 	In fact, Gene often inadvertently puts more than he realizes of his opinion into his comments about Finny. He seems to think that he's just being objective, that anyone who saw or was aquainted with Finny would think these things. Yet we are never, throughout the entire novel, given any indication that this is the case. Gene's thoughts are consistently colored by his feelings; take for example the following quotes. When he goes to take a call in the dean's building and realizes that the number he's given is an operator in Finny's hometown: "I saw on the pad an operator's number... which seemed to interrupt the beating of my heart." When Brinker first tells Finny about their plans to enlist: "Phineas was shocked at the idea of my leaving. In some way he needed me. He needed me. I was the least trustworthy person he had ever met... but there was no mistaking...he wanted me around." Notice the desperate repetition of "He needs me," as if Gene is trying to convince himself. After this Gene deflects Brinker's comments and Brinker responds. Phineas doesn't notice Brinker, and Gene describes the scene: "But Finny hadn't heard that. His face had broken into a wide and dazzling smile at what I had said, lighting up his whole face. This drove me on." Gene continues to denounce Brinker's idea, and has some realization of what he means to Phineas: "I didn't know why he had chosen me. I didn't care." There are even more quotes in which Gene's feelings for Finny show through, as does the obvious mental state of being somehow in love. The ways in which he describes his friend always imply deep affection and adoration for the boy (except when he is deluded that Finny hates him). There are also many quotes that are more subtle hints at Gene's feelings, such as when he describes the odor of the gym: "I thought it anything but a bad smell. It was preeminently the smell of the human body after it had been used to the limit, such a smell as has meaning and poignance for any athlete, as it has for any lover." Such a strange connection is almost a conceit, unless one takes into account that the athlete and the lover are one in the same. -- 	It's worth noting that no one is a more practiced connoisseur of Phineas's beauty than is Gene. He often reflects on his friend's body, sometimes taking several paragraphs to compliment its supple beauty and grace. He's very impressed with his friend, pondering the "reddish copper glow of his tan" and the way it "made his eyes shine with a cool blue-green fire" as they walk together along the beach. He seems, throughout the book, to be especially taken with Phineas's eyes. And while he notices the bodies of other boys, such as Brinker's only incongruity, his overly large buttocks (Who but a gay guy would even think about that anyway?), he never compliments them as he profusely does for his friend. In short, he feels Finny is "too good to be true," and even tells the boy so himself.

--     One of the major complaints about this novel is that the character Phineas is described as almost perfect. For some, it almost ruins the novel. Why does Phineas seem so perfect? It's almost impossible. It probably is impossible, which seems to devalue the worth of this piece of literature, of this American classic. But when we look at the point of view from which the book is told, and thus at the character and motivations of the narrator, this "complaint" is really a great literary achievement and only proves Knowles's incredible talent. The answer to the question, "Why is Finny so wonderful?" is actually very simple. The reason we see such a perfect picture of Phineas is that the novel is told from the perspective of the boy Gene, and Gene thinks of his friend as perfect. It's because to Gene, as to any one of us, his beloved IS perfect.

-- 	No matter how you look at it, this novel is a beautiful and compelling statement about war, peace, and, yes, love. Call it what you will, there is love between the main characters of the story, Phineas and Gene. Knowles himself admitted this in an interview about the book. What kind of love is to be decided by the reader, as is the question of whether or not Gene intentionally jounced the limb that night. For those of us who are perhaps a bit more liberal, there is nothing wrong with conceding that the relationship between Gene and Finny may be a romantic one, or possibly had that potential. It was never realized that way in the book because it was never given a chance to, and because Knowles wanted the novel to be taken seriously; and yet, it's still obvious that Gene and Phineas were each the most important thing in the world to the other and cared for each other deeply. The beauty of such friendship, however it is interpreted, is probably the most deeply moving theme in the novel and one of the reasons that, even 45 years after it was written, it is still cherished.

--    There is also the fact that Gene's resentment of Finny could have been caused by his feelings for him. In the 1940s, homosexuality was taboo, and Gene having homosexual feelings towards Finny would be a cause of his resentment. He was in denial that he could have this feelings because they are "wrong", and blames Finny for making him feel this way. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.176.64.122 (talk) 03:48, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

lol Wasn't there a quote that said that Gene noticed Brinker had a nice-looking butt? I guess that's probably homosexual. Occamsrazorwit (talk) 12:00, 20 April 2010 (UTC)


 * So was Robert Graves a homosexual? Was _Goodbye to All That_ a book about being homosexual?  Because he wrote about school boys "in love".  Said he was "in love" with his friend Dick.  Really now, if you're willing to cherry pick, any book can contain homosexuality.  So what?  What does it amount to?  Assuming the characters *are* homosexual, how does that change anything?  Does that change their friendship?  I doubt any serious critic would read this book and say simply, "this was about two gay kids!"  or even "the fact that they were gay was an extremely important element to the story, theme(s), and or message of the book".  Suffice to say, I am of the opinion the article does *not* need a section exploring the homosexual possibilities of certain passages in the book.  I think your observations are very subjective, and your conclusions ethereal.--122.26.57.223 (talk) 12:10, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

-Um, Robert Graves WAS a homosexual, a fact that was surely as relevant to the form of his writing as Hemingway's aggressively masculine form of heterosexuality. You can't divorce biography from authorship quite so easily as that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Poupartca (talk • contribs) 01:51, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

- Perhaps the most poignant - and revealing - scene of all is the last meeting between Gene and Finny, after Finny has fallen and broken his leg for the second time, on the white marble stairs. At the beginning of this encounter, in the infirmary, both act nervously, and won't look each other in the eye until Gene notices that Finny's hands are shaking: they act like estranged lovers who are unsure what to say or do next. When Gene finally breaks the silence, Finny asks why he 'came around here last night' - the occasion when Finny tried to attack Gene as he balanced at the window. After some prevarication, Gene admits, 'I had to ... I thought I belonged here.' The effect on Finny is dramatic, 'He had a particular expression which his face assumed when he didn't think he should show it, a settled, enlightened look ... the first decent thing I had seen in a long time.' 'I thought I belonged here' is the missing answer Finny has been waiting for all this time - the one Gene failed to give on the beach back in the Summer Session. The 'settled, enlightened' look on Finny's face represents his realization that, despite all, Gene loves him. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Michael Asher 154.122.43.170 (talk) 18:11, 7 February 2019 (UTC)


 * Well, this is a whole lot of original research... DonIago (talk) 20:48, 7 February 2019 (UTC)


 * Yep. If anyone wants to explore this question, and present their thoughts and analysis to the world, you're in the wrong place. Try here: WordPress.com -Jason A. Quest (talk) 23:20, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

A real homosexuality section
Unless there's some other reason, a section describing why this book was banned and where would cover a homosexual themes section. It's on wikipedias list of banned books, but there is no explanation there. This article mentions that Knowles said that Finny and Gene were in love on page 2. http://www.looksmartjrhigh.com/p/articles/mi_qa4063/is_200401/ai_n9385166/pg_2?pi=gdw Then again, that guy used the word love like nobody's business. The article cites a source I am currently to lazy to look up. I think it's probable that the writer of the article didn't intentionally take Knowles out of context, though. 66.41.66.213 14:32, 28 April 2006 (UTC) actually finny never died he cam back to life — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.91.98.81 (talk) 01:12, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

Devon's Location
Where is the school of Devon located? In the text it states the location as New Hampshire, while the back cover of the Shown Edition states it as New England. Liraoq 03:18, 30 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Probably both, as New Hampshire is one of the New England states. StuRat 06:12, 30 September 2006 (UTC)


 * It's pretty clearly based on Exeter, New Hampshire, based on the distance to the ocean. Ken Gallager 18:11, 19 December 2006 (UTC)


 * It is actually based on Phillips Exeter Academy in Exeter, NH, the author's alma mater. When I read the book, shortly after its publication, in English class at Exeter, I recognized every physical landmark, with the sole exception of The Tree, which was evidently imagined.  I recognized a few faculty members as well (although their names had been changed), including my Latin teacher, who had indeed been teaching at Exeter during the War.Ccerf (talk) 02:29, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Major characters, Finny and Gene
It might be good to give a section each to the two main characters in the book,   Gene  and Finny,  and then have a section for minor characters and incorporate the text  we have now into that section.


 * Yes, I agree with that. That we have sections for Leper and Brinker and not Gene and Finny struck me as odd.  We should probably get to work on that.  Also, there is no explanation of how Finny is Phineas's nickname, so that might confuse people not familiar with the book. I'm not sure what exactly is supposed to be in here, (Deep and speculative character analysis is best left to English teachers and SparkNotes, but probably not appropriate for here due to its subjective nature) but I think we need some of the basics (the objective and more explicit), as two lesser characters have their own sections, and the two most important characters aren't given due importance. There is a lot about Gene and Finny embedded in the other sections, but they probably deserve their own sections, if Brinker and Leper got their own.  --Cartoonmaster 04:32, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Why not point out the well-known fact that the character of Brinker was based on Knowles classmate at Phillips Exeter, the writer Gore Vidal? The information is even contained on John Knowles wiki entry. And Vidal refers to this fact in his memoir Palimpsest. S.Smith —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.68.15.79 (talk) 23:26, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Asp.jpg
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Redirects?
Should we have a redirect here for the misspelling "A Separate Piece"? Apparently, I didn't notice they meant the other "peace" this whole time we were working on it at school, or I just forgot, and it didn't turn up when I searched the mispelled title on Wikipedia. ^_^; --Cartoonmaster 04:32, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Same here too lol... but unfortunatly we can't redirect a general phrase such as "a seperate piece" because that could probably mean pizza (sarcasm). Perhaps we could but I wouldn't do it yet until we got more support for your redirect proposal. -- ☯µWiki☯  Talk / Contributions  (YouWiki''') 22:53, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Pop Culture
At my high school, it was sort of a tradition to write "Finny dies." in textbooks and whatnot. I thought about changing the "Allusions" section to "In Popular Culture" and adding this info, but I'm not really sure if it belongs or if it is even prevalent outside of my old school district. Dancemotron 09:54, 5 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Probably not. I've never heard of that, and it doesn't seem notable enough to be widespread (Google?), so I don't think it's relevant for the article...although that's an intersting school tradition...  :) We've got Mooseman.  Don't ask. --Cartoonmaster 03:05, 6 June 2007 (UTC)


 * It was done at my high school in Berkley, MI. Assuming Dancemotron isn't a neighbor of mine, then that's 2 places. It's definitely tradition at my old high school. Incoming freshmen were greeted "Welcome to Berkley, Finny dies." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.41.138.181 (talk) 16:55, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

In the movie "Sideways" (2005?), Paul Giamatti's character is an 8th-grade English teacher. One of the final scenes in the movie shows one of Giamatti's students reading the final paragraph. S.Smith —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.68.15.79 (talk) 23:24, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Spoiler
I already added the tag, but is it widely known about the ending to this piece? I did not know it, but it may be different. I have not heard of it anywhere. --&Mu;79_&Scaron;p&euro;&ccedil;&iacute;&aacute;&int;&iacute;&scaron;&dagger; tell me about it 00:53, 5 November 2007 (UTC)


 * We usually don't tag plot sections for spoilers. It's assumed nowadays that the words "Plot summary" and the like tell the reader that he's about to read about the plot.  --Tony Sidaway 02:10, 5 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, the policy still exists. Just saying that one of two things needs to happen: change the policy or change the article. I am going with policy. Need some more opinions on this, although. --&Mu;79_&Scaron;p&euro;&ccedil;&iacute;&aacute;&int;&iacute;&scaron;&dagger; tell me about it 03:54, 6 November 2007 (UTC)


 * If you're going with the policy (actually it's a guideline), then we shouldn't have any tag in the plot summary, because the plot summary section heading can (according to the guideline Spoiler), "be considered a de facto spoiler notice." --Tony Sidaway 07:02, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

I wanted to find out the whole plot anyways, but was disturbed that there was no spoiler warning b/c I have always expected it. Calvin199 (talk) 20:54, 24 December 2007 (UTC)Calvin199

It's important to note that the title is taken from Hemingway's "A Farewell to Arms". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 153.9.84.51 (talk) 22:10, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Attribution of title to Hemingway?
The phrase "a separate peace" has a history that long predates Hemingway. Is there a reason to believe Knowles took the title specifically from A Farewell to Arms? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.239.134.12 (talk) 17:36, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Mention of alleged homosexual overtones blocked on Wiki? If so, why?
There has apparently been some controversy—even perhaps engendering past edit warring—over the years since this article has been written on Wikipedia about whether some mention of the alleged homosexual implications within the book at least be made. Because that is in realty the perception of many readers and, as I understand it, the novel has even been included in a list of best gay fiction, then I certainly think a mention of this should be in the article; just like there is a mention of the fact that many allege that the folk song “Puff the Magic Dragon” is a thinly-veiled song about drug usage in the song’s Wiki article. I fail to see the distinction.

Additionally, the book was banned by several school districts for the following reasons:

“Challenged in Vernon-Verona-Sherill, NY School District (1980) as a "filthy, trashy sex novel." Challenged at the Fannett-Metal High School in Shippensburg, Pa. (1985) because of its allegedly offensive language. Challenged as appropriate for high school reading lists in the Shelby County, Tenn. school system (1989) because the novel contained "offensive language." Challenged at the McDowell County, N.C. schools (1996) because of "graphic language." Source: Newsletter on Intellectual Freedom, May 1980, p. 62; Nov. 1985, p. 204; Jan, 1990, pp 11-12; Jan. 1997, p. 11.”

http://www.ala.org/Template.cfm?Section=bbwlinks&Template=/ContentManagement/ContentDisplay.cfm&ContentID=136590

It’s been many years since I last read A Separate Peace, but I don’t recall it as having been particularly lurid, especially in light of when it was written. Was an 80’s characterization such as “a filthy, trashy sex novel” a veiled referenced to the alleged homoerotic overtones of the work? Knowles wrote that he was surprised that he had more girls than boys write him about the book as the novel has no girls in it (see the below link).

Now, having said that, it should also be mentioned that just as both the lyricist for Puff (Lenny Lipton) and the composer (Peter Yarrow) have categorically denied the song's linkage to drugs, it should be stated that John Knowles in a like fashion stated that he intended no homoerotic theme at all. Here is my source for this contention:

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/1987-03-15/features/8701160400_1_autobiography-readers-fiction/2

Also, while I’m writing on the subject, the Wiki article on John Knowles provides very little biographical information about him. It is virtually a second article about A Separate Peace. Is there some reason why there is so little information about his life in the article? I’m not being critical as I can’t provide any additional material at the moment. It just seems, well, odd. Is there any other author of such a best-selling novel with so little personal information available?

Anyway, I don’t know who has apparently ardently blocked any reference to mentioning the allegations of the book being gay-themed, but I feel strongly that in being consistent with Puff that at least a brief mention of this should be included within the article along with Mr. Knowles’s denial of any such intention. Please advise if anyone objects and, if so, why. Thank you.HistoryBuff14 (talk) 20:16, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
 * As long as it's properly sourced I don't see why including such material would be an issue. Of course, care should be taken to avoid saying anything or making interpretations that are not explicitly supported by the sources. DonIago (talk) 20:39, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Okay, thank you. I shall add a small section when I get some time and tread carefully per your admonition.  If anyone removes it without stating a valid reason for doing so, then I shall appeal to a Wiki administrator that I have encountered.HistoryBuff14 (talk) 20:55, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I think going to an admin would be hasty in such a case; it would be more politic to encourage the removing editor to discuss their reasoning here, noting that there is already a discussion on the matter. Assume good faith and all. Cheers. DonIago (talk) 14:38, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, you’re right, of course. Thanks for the sage advice and maybe it will be a moot point.  I hope to get to this next weekend and add to John Knowles’s article as well from a source I recently found.  Thanks again and best regards.HistoryBuff14 (talk) 16:47, 10 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Donlago or anyone, if you appreciate the new section I just added regarding the assertions of homosexual overtones within A Separate Peace, perhaps you will be so kind as to correctly add the two links I intended to. They are (per above):


 * (1)


 * http://www.ala.org/Template.cfm?Section=bbwlinks&Template=/ContentManagement/ContentDisplay.cfm&ContentID=136590


 * (2)


 * http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/1987-03-15/features/8701160400_1_autobiography-readers-fiction/2


 * Although I think I have strong writing and research abilities, I often have difficulty adding links properly (if at all). Sometimes copying what other people have done and then merely changing the particulars works, while other times it doesn’t seem to.  I was born too early to become a full-fledged member of the tech generation, I’m afraid.  Thank you for any generous assistance you can render in properly adding these links.HistoryBuff14 (talk) 19:05, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Took a stab at cleaning up the refs using this tool. Cheers! DonIago (talk) 15:08, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Doniago, thanks much and I have left a note on your talk page.HistoryBuff14 (talk) 17:55, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Clarity of Gene's Motivation
I read Sep. Peace twice and never felt that it made it clear that Gene knowingly, "with malice aforethought," "jounced" the branch to knock Finny out of the tree. I think he did some impulsive, rather unknowing, typical boyish wiggle-type action that the author then used to lead to the worst possible damage to both Finny's body at the moment and to his life as the book goes on. Gene did something--we have no idea just what or just how much--to wiggle the branch. To directly conclude from that, that "I knocked you out of the tree" seems to jump to a plausible but not clear conclusion. The point of view as the Wikipedia article now reads can counter, "Would Finny have fallen had Gene not moved the branch?" and the answer is probably not. I still think it was an act so subtle that when Lepelier says Gene knocked him out, he verges on pretending to know what only "God" can know, which is something teenage boys do all day long--jump to conclusions in the midst of life's ambiguities. I extend this further: if Finny does decide Gene has harmed him, he's jumping to the same conclusion on flimsy evidence. With these thoughts in mind, I may insert an "apparently" some place in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.144.161.166 (talk) 18:48, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Please note that new Talk threads should generally be placed at the bottom of the page, and posts should be signed by adding four tildes (~) to the end. That said, thank you for explaining your insertion into the article.
 * Without providing any sources to back up your claim that "some readers" feel a certain way, what you are inserting is original research. In any case, this information would not belong in the Plot summary, as the goal of that section is to state what occurs in the text, not interpret it. Cheers. DonIago (talk) 19:45, 27 June 2017 (UTC)