Talk:A Song of Ice and Fire/GA2

GA Review
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Reviewer: Aircorn (talk · contribs) 05:44, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

I have read all the books so know a bit about the story. I think some of this could be difficult as there are still 2? books to come and the story could go in so many directions. I will leave some comments below as I work through the sections (leaving the lead to last). Feel free to comment on any of them as you see fit. I might make a few prose changes as I go. Please revert if you do not agree with them and we can discuss the changes further. AIR corn (talk) 07:23, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

Comments

 * Thank you for starting the review. I'll have more time on the weekend. Also, after reading through the article very recently, I've found some improvable spots on my own, so don't be surprised if I make changes without your input. :-) – sgeureka t•c 07:35, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I am still here. If my progress is taking you too long, please say so, and I'll try to give this absolute priority (uncommonly interesting RL work and the good weather are keeping me away from the internet, and hence wikipedia). – sgeureka t•c 17:20, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I am getting ready to address the remaining comments in the next couple of hours. – sgeureka t•c 13:07, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Where has the time gone if not for the Pareto principle? My schedule is full tomorrow, so I'll be back on Tuesday. – sgeureka t•c 16:28, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Finally got some spare time. I will have another read through thus while the olympics plays in the background. Sorry about the delay. AIR corn (talk) 07:57, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Nothing but spare time today, so I hope to have addressed the last few issues. I also read through the article changes (page history) from the last month including your changes, and everything appears to be alright from my perspective. I also left some comments below. – sgeureka t•c 10:49, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Plot Synopsis

 * invincible power Is this right. Strong no doubt, but invincible seems too much.
 * I couldn't find an alternative (not my phrase in the first place), but I think just "power" works. – sgeureka t•c 10:56, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
 * the books follow three stories that are divided by geography and participants I would question this too. If anything there are a lot more than three stories or it is just one big multifaceted story. This calls into question the set up of the next three paragraphs. I think the plot summaries for the "stories" are good, but maybe there is a better way to organise it. Of couse if you find a citation for three stories that might be enough.
 * Well, you're right, but I've tried different forms of organisation months ago (e.g. chronology), and the current organisation is the only way I could make it work. For now, I've rewritten the phrase to say "three major storylines". My main non-subjective argument for this organisation is the split of the fourth and fifth book, which take place in parallel and separate it that way too: (1) political struggles of Westeros all in A Feast for Crows, (2) the Wall+North stories making up roughly the half of A Dance with Dragons, (3) Daenerys and other Essos POV characters making up the other half of A Dance with Dragons. – sgeureka t•c 10:56, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I would leave it set up how you have. How about not defining the story so precisely. For example: "The story starts off as Winter is approaching and the books follow various characters spread across divergant landscapes." AIR corn (talk) 11:30, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Yup, that works. Rewritten. – sgeureka t•c 19:10, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
 * The sentinels of the Wall, the Sworn Brotherhood of the Night's Watch, spend most of their time dealing with the human wildlings living beyond the Wall, when the first Others appear in A Game of Thrones. Something not quite right about this sentence.
 * The grammar appears right to my non-native ears: The [people] spend most of their time [doing X] when [Y happens]. Maybe the comma throws you off, or it should be The [people] are spending most of their time [doing X] when [Y happens]. (???) Either way, I'll try to think of another way to phrase this. – sgeureka t•c 10:56, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Both. You could probably drop the last comma easily enough. Spend sounds wrong (not good at explaining grammar, just recognise it when it sounds funny). I think it is the tense. "are spending" would work. AIR corn (talk) 11:50, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Comma now gone, "are spending". – sgeureka t•c 19:10, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Her story is isolated from the others until more POV characters join her in A Dance with Dragons Not completely. Barriston joins in Clash (I think). Minor quibble, but she is no more joined to th maybe other stories now than she was then.
 * Barristan is not a POV character until Dance, so her story is told exclusively through her eyes until Dance. – sgeureka t•c 10:56, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. AIR corn (talk) 10:36, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Because her family standard is the dragon, these creatures are of symbolic value before they grow big enough to be of tactical use for her goal of reclaiming the Iron Throne. I would have thought it was more because they were Dragons, not so much that they are the symbol of her standard.
 * Yeah, this link is bordering OR, although A Storm of Swords makes it clear that she regards the dragons as symbolic ("three heads has the dragons"). Since I'll have to leave in a minute, I've changed "Because" to "With" for now. – sgeureka t•c 10:56, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Publishing history

 * Can you check this edit . It changed some page numbers around.
 * Added sources and asked the other editor for comment since I had to change some of his numbers. – sgeureka t•c 12:33, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Could some more information be given about the novellas. Are they written by George? Do they follow the story exactly as presented in the other novels?
 * I'd go as far as saying they're virtually identical to the chapter sets, as per the westeros forum and my speedy cross-check of the third novella. The only change I found were the introduction words ("Aeron Damphair was drowning men..." vs. "The prophet was drowning men..."). Therefore, I've boldly changed "based on" to "compiled from". – sgeureka t•c 12:33, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
 *  Released for pre-release publicity, a sample novella called Blood of the Dragon went on to win the 1997 Hugo Award for Best Novella. "Released for pre-release." Could this be reworded. It reads kinda funny.
 * Changed. – sgeureka t•c 12:33, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
 * He has previously gotten in trouble from fans for repeatedly estimating his publication dates too optimistically and thus refrains from making absolute estimates for book six. Is there a better way to say "previously gotten in trouble from fans"? It sounds a bit like he is treated like a child by his fans. Maybe "received criticism".
 * Rewritten to avoid the criticism part altogether; I couldn't really make it work with "fan criticism", and the professional critics largely weren't be bothered. – sgeureka t•c 19:10, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
 *  Martin would love to return to writing short stories, novellas... There are a few of these. I wonder if it would be better to use "Martin says he would ..." a bit more. It comes across a bit too biographical.
 * Rewritten per your suggestion. – sgeureka t•c 19:10, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

Inspiration etc

 * George R. R. Martin believes the most profound influences to be the ones experienced in childhood,[55] reading H. P. Lovecraft, Robert E. Howard, J. R. R. Tolkien, Robert A. Heinlein, Eric Frank Russell, Andre Norton,[20] Isaac Asimov,[23] Fritz Leiber, and Mervyn Peake[56] in his youth. ???
 * What exactly do you see as the problem with this sentence, besides the wrong tense ("reading H. P. Lovecraft" -> "having read H. P. Lovecraft", which is fixed now)? Too biographical, too many names, too irrelevant? – sgeureka t•c 19:10, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I didn't really understand it when I first read it, although "having read" makes the meaning clearer to me. I can't access ref #55 " Deep Magic", does it talk about the authors mentioned here? This doesn't really say they influenced him so I am a little worried that it is synthesis (i.e. one source saying he believes the biggest influences happen in childhood and others saying what books he read in his childhood does not necessarily mean those authors influenced him, which is what is being implied here). Would you consider removing the first sentence and rewording the next two? For example: George R. R. Martin read H. P. Lovecraft, Robert E. Howard, J. R. R. Tolkien, Robert A. Heinlein, Eric Frank Russell, Andre Norton,[20] Isaac Asimov,[23] Fritz Leiber, and Mervyn Peake[56] in his youth. He does not categorize these authors' literature as science fiction, fantasy or horror[56] and will write from any genre as a result. I don't know the Deep Magic reference so it might need to need to be changed. AIR corn (talk) 10:37, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
 * As an aside I remeber when reading Dreamsongs that Martin gave an example of a science fiction journal that said it wanted sci fi stories not westerns dressed up as sci fi (there was an example of how just changing a few words around could change the genre). Martin made a big point of saying that it wasn't the genre that was important, but the story itself. I think this is what this paragraph is trying to say, that he is not stuck up on genres. AIR corn (talk) 10:37, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Below is the quote from Deep Magic, which IMO backs up everything. I took part of your suggestion into the article, but all-in-all, I feel synthesis is not an issue. – sgeureka t•c 10:49, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Q: What influences have helped you become the writer you are?
 * A: The most profound are the ones you experience when you're young. Writers that you have read growing up. I read science fiction, fantasy, and horror interchangeably. My father would call them all "weird stuff". They influenced the fact I write from all the genres easily. Heinlein's Have Space Suit-Will Travel was my first foray into science fiction. I read Robert E. Howard first as fantasy, then Tolkien next, and he had a profound effect. For Horror, definately Lovecraft.


 * Martin himself never categorized these authors' imaginative literature into science fiction and fantasy or horror[56] and nowadays writes from all these genres easily. "Imaginative literature"- if it is a quote from Martin I would put quote marks around it. "Himself" - redundant. "Science fiction and fantasy or horror" - does this mean science fiction and fantasy or horror or science fiction and fantasy or horror? "Nowadays" - might not hold true in a few more years, better to give an as of date. "Writes from all these genres easily" - Who is saying this?
 * All addressed. – sgeureka t•c 19:10, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
 * although Martin considered the series not particularly Vancean. What does Vancean mean? I know, but had to look it up. Can we use language that the average reader will understand.
 * Jack Vance (to whom "Vancean" refers) is named+linked immediately before. If the author's name doesn't ring a bell (I frankly don't know anything about the named authors except Tolkien), then the reader is free to click on the provided link to learn more, I guess. – sgeureka t•c 19:10, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I guess Vancean and Vance did not immideately click with me. I originally thought it was some in house word to describe literature. Not a major point and I guess it is pretty obvious now that I look at it. AIR corn (talk) 10:42, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
 * whose writing still dominates the genre. I am not sure the source is strong enough to state this so matter-of-factly.
 * Added another source that shows Tolien's/TLotR's dominance in the public mind. Tolkien, who "founded" the epic fantasy genre, certainly dominated my used GRRM interviews by 95%, and although I am a fantasy layman, I'd be surprised if anyone seriously questioned that claim (see WP:BLUE). – sgeureka t•c 15:58, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
 * However, where historic fiction leaves versed readers with knowing the historic outcome, grammar
 * Removed "with". – sgeureka t•c 15:58, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Martin is widely credited with taking fantasy fiction into a more adult direction Source: "Martin is widely credited with taking such fiction in a more adult direction." "Widely credited" always begs the question "by whom", although in this case I think the preceding sentences cover it well.
 * Rewritten to not be so close to the original source ("Martin is widely credited with broadening the fantasy fiction genre for adult content"), but I guess/agree that sentence could really stand without a source and just be a summary of the next few sentences. – sgeureka t•c 15:58, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
 * His original contract gave one-year deadlines, based on his previous literary works in his Hollywood days,[30] but Martin failed to take the new book lengths into account. I don't understand. He was given one year deadlines because of the work he did for Hollywood?
 * Specified. – sgeureka t•c 15:58, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Martin said to only be able to immerse himself in the fictional world and write from his own office in Santa Fe, New Mexico Grammar
 * Restructured ("Martin said he needed to be in his own office in Santa Fe, New Mexico to immerse himself in the fictional world and write."). – sgeureka t•c 15:58, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
 * to know specific points before needed in writing. This is a bit awkward
 * Rewritten ("to have the facts at hand if needed during writing"). – sgeureka t•c 15:58, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Some changed details significantly affect the further story. This too
 * Clarified ("On occasion, improvised details have significantly affected the planned story.") – sgeureka t•c 08:29, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
 * By the fourth book, Martin said to keep more notes than ever before to keep track of the many subplots,[23] which have become so detailed and sprawling by the fifth book to be unwieldy. Grammar
 * Slightly rewritten, but I can't really put my finger on what's wrong with this one, so I have asked another editor to give it a grammar check. – sgeureka t•c 08:29, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
 * ditto Would not use this, repeating unclear would be better
 * It's a quote, so I won't change this. – sgeureka t•c 08:29, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Should have noticed that. AIR corn (talk) 10:45, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
 * The New York Times noted the particular importance of In what way were they important
 * Changed to "The New York Times noted the story importance of". Since a long quote comes afterwards, I am reluctant to split this into "The NYT notes the importance of [long character list] for the story." – sgeureka t•c 08:29, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
 * only that Martin now writes all POV parts in A Song of Ice and Fire as the sole author Is this necessary? It is kind of implied and makes the sentence a bit awkward.
 * Removed that bit, but put "As the sole author, ..." at the beginning of the next sentence. I am not too hung up if you feel that's still unneccessary. – sgeureka t•c 08:29, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
 *  although Martin heeds story developments to not be predictable. Not sure what this means
 * Rephrased to "although Martin pays attention to not make the story predictable". – sgeureka t•c 08:29, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Each character is designed to have his (her) own internal voice What is meant by internal voice?
 * Clarified and moved that sentence part two paragraphs down, where it fits better. – sgeureka t•c 08:29, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
 * but also the manners of friends but instead of what?
 * Clarified to "but also from the manners of his friends" (the sentence part right before goes "Martin drew most inspiration from history ... and his own experiences,"). – sgeureka t•c 08:29, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Martin deliberately ignored the writing rules to never give two characters a name starting with the same letter Reference (for the written rules part)
 * The same as the sentence afterwards. To avoid confusion, I've added that ref again right behind the first sentence. – sgeureka t•c 08:29, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Finally, Martin sees the characters as the heart of the story, Why finally. The previous sentences were not numbered and did not appear to be in any special order.
 * Always hated that part myself. I merged the two sentence parts into the paragraphs above without the "finally". – sgeureka t•c 08:29, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I am a little worried that all the reviewers opinions are attributed to the newspapers. It is not really the newspapers opinions, but the authors. It is also a bit weird to read that the "the Atlantic pondered" or the "Los Angeles Times remarked" as these are human characteristics and newspapers as inanimate objects can't do these things.
 * I tried to mix it up even more per your suggestion. The marketing praise in my ASOIAF paperback copies (you know, "The major fantasy of the decade ... compulsively readable" kind of stuff) name just the newspapers 50-66 percent of the time (and the real people's names the other times), so I guess it isn't that wrong to just name the newspaper in uncontroversial places. – sgeureka t•c 15:58, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Last sections
Looking good. A few replies to some comments above. AIR corn (talk) 11:29, 1 August 2012 (UTC) Thanks for your patience. I am happy that this is at least at Good article quality. AIR corn (talk) 11:26, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * The series has been translated into more than 20 languages;[3] the fifth book was said to be translated into over 40 languages. Said by who?
 * Dealt with. – sgeureka t•c 17:20, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Could the sales graph be made a bit larger? What does the y axis mean?
 * I am reluctant to increase the image size, as per WP:IMGSIZE. Are the numbers too small for you, or why do you think an increased image size would help? y axis == spot in the bestseller list; I'll upload another image with the axis description ("bestseller rank") when I'm at my home PC. – sgeureka t•c 17:20, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Uploaded another image version with y axis name. – sgeureka t•c 16:28, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I have seen requests at FA for larger images, especially if they have improtant numbers that need to be seen. It is not a requiremnt for GA as far as I am aware so I will leave it up to you. AIR corn (talk) 11:29, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I think the trend is more important than the actual bestseller rank. I can clearly read "bestseller rank" and obviously the trend on my PC screen, which isn't the biggest (17 inch with a resolution of 1366x768), so I think the current displayed image size is alright for most WP readers, and I'll leave it as it is. – sgeureka t•c 10:49, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * During his years in television, Martin's novels slowly earned him a reputation in science fiction circles, How do his years in televison tie in with his novels earning him a reputation
 * In no way, hence replaced with "During the 1980s and early 1990s". – sgeureka t•c 17:20, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
 * although he said to only receive a few fans letters a year in the pre-internet days. grammar
 * I hope it's better now. – sgeureka t•c 17:20, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
 * By 2005, Martin received many fan e-mails and was about 2000 letters behind that may go unanswered for years. Grammar
 * Sentence fully rewritten. – sgeureka t•c 17:20, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I think there is a new computor MMORPG called GOT: Seven Kingdoms soon to be released that is not mentioned in "Other Works".
 * Since it doesn't have an article (yet), I'd leave it out like most of the other merchandise items without an article. – sgeureka t•c 17:20, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. AIR corn (talk) 11:29, 1 August 2012 (UTC)