Talk:Abaza family/Archive 1

Importance
- PLEASE DISCUSS and consider: -1For the importance issue: suggestion: Mid importance because it meets "Many readers will be familiar with the topic being discussed, but a larger majority of readers may have only cursory knowledge of the overall subject."- which is a description from wiki 'importance scale' list... most egyptians would be aware of the name and at least some members of the family eg Rushdy or Maher abaza... but will not know detailed history -2quality scale.. for now i suggest 'B' under this criterion: "Readers are not left wanting, although the content may not be complete enough to satisfy a serious student or researcher.	"

Balancing the article
because in general most casual readers will get enough info but certainly serious research at least requires that the refrences are included in the text to identify which part of article comes from where.. AND the history and most major figures could either be extended or recieve their own articles... for example Aziz Pasha Abaza and Fekry Pasha Abaza AT LEAST were major writers who deserve own pages.. same with current major politicians.. and perhaps some others —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.57.109.192 (talk) 21:46, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

the commentary on recruiting fighters refers to Fouad Abaza, a member of parliment whose actions were well documente din media. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.180.86.126 (talk) 02:25, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

the intention was to contribute to balancing teh article by including some negative or questionable facts rather than making it seem that the family are angels. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.180.86.126 (talk) 05:08, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Why were the conterversial aspects deleted despite a clear source? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.180.86.126 (talk) 06:01, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

-why are decisions bieng made without response sto the questions above? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.180.86.126 (talk) 09:59, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

-quote: "	This article or section has multiple issues." - refrences rae already cited.. more i sneeded.. easy to find..i found one and cited info from a respectable Egyptian paper.. but that was deleted... if u delete it at least research on your own and try to improve then we can have a real debate rather than deleting and marking pages as unsourced —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.180.86.126 (talk) 10:08, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

-without trying to improve it —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.180.86.126 (talk) 10:11, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Neutrality issue
This article sounds like it's trying to glorify the family more than anything else. I'm not terribly familiar with the general layout of "family"-articles but I have a problem with the way the article is worded and I'm sure many will agree that it is far from being anywhere near neutral. Turnopoems (talk) 18:19, 10 November 2016 (UTC)


 * Updated: I checked the Kennedy family page and compared the two. The word "prominent" may be appropriate in the lead. I removed some words that were "glorifying" and there's more to review. There is some stuff that should be better sourced. i.e. "is known as a prominent member of Egypt's animal rights community," and the sourced inline citation goes to the SPARE webpage. A secondary source, a news article for example, would be more appropriate. From that sentence, I removed the word "prominent". Level C (talk) 03:53, 6 December 2016 (UTC)


 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/FAQ. Level C (talk) 15:54, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

Coat of arms
It looks like it's the coat of arms for the city of Abaza in Russia. Level C (talk) 21:57, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

Images
It would be nice if we had some more images of the Abaza Pashas in this article, but I didn't find much on wikicommons. Especially since, the images will be over 100 years old and copyright free. Perhaps someone would be so kind as to add images to wikimedia commons so they can be included in the article. Thank you. i.e. for Aziz, the writer, etc. Level C (talk) 14:41, 7 December 2016 (UTC)


 * I like the image!Level C (talk) 10:48, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

Infobox
There is no point in adding everything in the infobox, literally the first paragraph of the article summarizes everything you've put in the infobox. Furthermore they are not a "political dynasty", they've been referred to as one in the media (this is not actually a thing though). They are also not a "noble house", Egypt doesn't have any nobility. A few individual Abazas, but definitely not all or even most, were awarded titles of nobility during the monarchy. I want to thank Level C for this excellent work leveling out bias in this article, which used to be an absolute mess. I would like it if we could continue to adhere to the general layout of family articles on Wikipedia as we continue to edit this article. Turnopoems (talk) 14:02, 4 January 2017 (UTC)


 * Your welcome! Level C (talk) 10:27, 10 January 2017 (UTC)


 * Hello and thank you for your message. I actually looked up both on Wikipedia and dictionaries the use of the term 'dynasty' with reference to non-royal clans and it is in English in circulation to refer to wealthy and/or politically powerful/influential clans such as, say, the Kennedy's etc... I do get your point about Egypt no longer having titles and being a republic. My understanding is that the Abaza clan had the largest number of titles when Egypt was a monarchy; and in Egypt, in Sharqia especially, to refer to them as 'aristocrats' and عيلة البشوات is common. (Quick note I can think just off the top of my head of a minimum of ten pashas (and my source is the TV show cited in the article).) You being Egyptian are probably aware they are associated quite explicitly with politics and business as well as those other cultural fields. I understand that by far most of them did not hold titles but this is not a requirement (not even royal families have everyone in them holding titles). And it was not me who categorized the page as having to do with nobility etc... This is not really why I undid the revision though, it is the summary of areas of prominence that matters more from my point of view. It gives a quick list at a quick glance. I think it is harmless and potentially helpful. It is not really a big deal but do please consider that before you revise again. It is a short harmless list that gives an idea to the reader quickly, I could have added a lot more in the infobox, it is fairly small. I agree "not everything" need be added but in my opinion those few words are helpful. I have a suggestion which is adding literature specifically (not just umbrella term "culture") to the first sentence in the article itself and removing the sentence you mean as a compromise? This is because I consider literature very important (as I suspect you would agree) and this is where my interest in this article comes from (I want to help build a better page for novelist Tharwat Abaza on Wikipedia for example). And in fact my main contribution in my opinion was simply adding it to the pre-existing list in the infobox, had already written it. I will leave it up to others to decide though. Thanks again. Seif Al-Sharqawy (talk) 05:16, 5 January 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply! The Kennedys were a dynasty. A dynasty is defined on Wikipedia as "a dynasty (UK /ˈdɪnəsti/, US /ˈdaɪnəsti/) is a sequence of rulers from the same family". The royal family of Egypt was a dynasty for example, the Abazas are just a family with a lot of distinguished members. If you insist on including the description of them as a political dynasty and noble house then the next step would be finding sources that explicitly refer to the family as a whole as a "noble house" and a "political dynasty", because having members who were given non-hereditary noble titles does not imply they are a noble house (moreover, Egypt simply doesn't have any nobility). I wont edit the areas of prominence if that's the sticking point for you but I will leave the discussion open for other editors to weigh in. Turnopoems (talk) 11:13, 5 January 2017 (UTC)


 * Hello again. I have no problem with what you say and your recent revision at all. Bickering over this wording is not for me important and it is OK if you change it. I do not agree with the implication that in republics 'former' aristocratic clans can't be called just that but it's not really what matters to me about this topic. Thank you for your efforts and also for communicating with me and reaching an understanding in this way!Seif Al-Sharqawy (talk) 17:25, 5 January 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for understanding and being cordial. Since you're one of the active editors on this article I would like to ask you what think about changing the ethnicity to Egyptian-Circassian, as it is fair to assume there has been quite a lot of intermixing. Turnopoems (talk) 14:02, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

Thank you also for your efforts and cordial communication. Oh yes you are correct actually. Since this clan has been in Egypt for quite a long time, they have mixed with native Egyptians. I will change it. Thank you for the suggestion. Seif Al-Sharqawy (talk) 14:57, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

17th or 18th century
Hi ! I didn't go back to check the sources in the reference section, but I remember it being the 18th century... I remember reading somewhere. when I was working on it that some member/s of the family "may have" originally been in Egypt, as early as, in the year 17-something (18th century). I see you changed it to 17th century, meaning the year 16-something. Is it the 17th or 18th century? Level C (talk) 10:27, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

Hello. I was thinking of your request when I looked for the picture by the way! About the century, in the book by Afaf Lutfi it records 18th cen. history mostly (since Mohamed Ali came very early 18th cen.). But it's clear from the section about this particular clan that they must have been well established already (due to the amount of influence they already had). But my actual source is Arabic and it is where they talk about the original maternal elder marrying the head of another big clan in the 17th cen. This is from memory but I am sure of it. If you want me to find it specifically I shall do so. (I read it from existing references in the article but before you fix the article and before I do much in the article). Do you read Arabic? Seif Al-Sharqawy (talk) 22:38, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

Wait - I think I made a stupid mistake. I meant in the 1700s. Not 1600s. !! So perhaps you are correct. Seif Al-Sharqawy (talk) 22:42, 10 January 2017 (UTC)


 * I fixed it. No, I do not read Arabic, but other people here do and we can use Arabic sources in the English Wikipedia. I would love to see the source if you can find it in the future. Take care and Happy New Year! Level C (talk) 22:51, 10 January 2017 (UTC)


 * FYI, it'd be good to have sources for things that we don't already have. I think we already have a source for "marriage and name of maternal grandmother" Level C (talk) 15:27, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

Adding to article
Thank you for correcting the date issue. Yes I know we can use Arabic sources, I read some of the sources here and they are alright. In my judgement the translation and paraphrasing in the article is accurate. Yes we have a source for the marriage of this maternal grandmother it's in one of the Arabic sources (ref 3). I do want to work on other pages but I will try to find time to add more Arabic references and more information. I did a quick Google in Arabic and there are numerous mentions of the family in many sites. I noticed that someone made a new article for the poet Aziz Abaza and I was quite happy as I do love his work. The family has a site which seems under construction and has no content yet except the flag and a portrait of Aziz Abaza. I wonder when they will add content as that would be a a potential source. There are pictures on the net of many people mentioned in the article that could be added. For example some Pashas and the actress and composer mentioned etc.. on a Google Image search and also on their Facebook page. I took the Aziz pictures from the Facebook page without asking because it is very old. If we wanted to add pictures of the younger living members should we ask first? I don't know the process.Seif Al-Sharqawy (talk) 08:30, 14 January 2017 (UTC)


 * Hi! So regarding the flag, we already had discussion on that and won't be using it in this article. If you can find any images in old books- books that are out of copyright, we can use them. We don't really need too many images. An image of a person is usually uploaded by that person and they attest that is it their own work and copyright free. Amina Tharwat seems to have done it with the addition of her image here: I do like the portrait of Aziz. Take care! Level C (talk) 14:48, 14 January 2017 (UTC)


 * OK. I will not be adding any more pictures. When I have time I will do some research for more sources especially in Arabic as you mentioned in the reply above. Thank you! Seif Al-Sharqawy (talk) 00:56, 15 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Your welcome! Anytime! Level C (talk) 01:18, 15 January 2017 (UTC)