Talk:Abbas ibn Ali/Archive 1

Untitled
He was the example of the valiant and brave soldier whose name will live forever. God has made this a promise by surrounding his grave with water and that water will never go away. Our 12th imam AS also has said that " My salaam on him, whose both arms were cut off while fetching water for the thirsty." This shows the great status of Mola Abbas. Ghazi Abbas is the statue of Faithfulness and on the judgement day God will judge all the martyrs of war to his doings for Imam Hussain AS and his family.

May Mola Abbass' name live on forever and may allah bless me enough to view his face after my Death (inshallah I will see him as soon as I die).

Family
The information about the family of Hazrat Abbas is wrong. Who ever wrote the family section of Hazrat abbas’ article got confused between Hazrat Abbas (brother of Imam Hussain) and Abbas ibn Abd-al-Muttalib (The uncle of Prophet Muhammad). So I am going to delete that section and try my best to find out the right information about the family of Hazrat Abbas ibn Ali Talib.

Family
Hey there is no confusion in writing about the family of Hazrat Abbas. I think you are not aware of that but i have books to prove what i have mentioned. i am also writing some more details..

so please dont remove that..

Zaidi 18:40, 21 April 2006 (UTC)



As far as books are concerned try reading this. "Zikr-ul Abbas" by Moulana Syed Najam-ul Hasan (Language Urdu, Farsi)

Zaidi 18:37, 22 April 2006 (UTC) (Ghulam-e Abbas)

Thanks for giving the title of the book. Waqas Bhia. Now i can read it too! Salman

Why is this article tagged for "complete rewrite" and "neutrality"?
Please don’t just tag the article with “complete rewrite and neutrality” tags before you discuss the issue on the talk page. The tag say that for more information on why this article is tagged (complete rewrite and neutrality) see the talk page but their in nothing on the talk page that finalizes that this article is not neutrality and because of that it should be rewritten. This article is neutral because it is not using SAW, AS, or Imam. Like I said in the above paragraph that all branches of Islam respect and love Hazrat Abbas ibn Ali ibn Abu Talib because of his love and affection toward the holy house of Hazrat Muhammad SAW. Please provide proof before actually tagging the article. Thank You Salman

Article is pure Shi'a hagiography
The article uses religious honorifics. The article is written from a Shi'a Muslim POV and assumes the truth of the Shi'a faith. No references are given for ANYTHING. It is not encyclopedic in any way. I just haven't had time to rewrite it. Salman, either rewrite it in sober fashion, or wait until I do it -- within a week, if I can. DO NOT REMOVE THE TAGS. That is against the rules. Zora 01:12, 5 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Zora thanks for your interest in the article of the family members of our Prophet Hazrat Mohammed SAW. You can not delete anything since you provide an example form the article that proves that the article is written from a Shi’a POV and as far as the tags are concerned I am going to let them stay there but you will have to provide us some sentences from the article that shows that the article is written from the Shi’a POV. Shi’as would not just say anything about their prophet Hazrat Muhammad SAW and the members of his household. So you can not delete anything from the article unless you provide a sentence from the article that shows that the article is written from the Shi’a POV. I mean you can not just say something you have read in a book, because there are some things that will never be going to be written because of so issues, but those things are real and did happen. Thank You Salman

Salman, you're suggestng that your article is based on 1300 years of oral tradition? And known only by you? That's simply not credible. It seems to be based on some Shi'a text. As for the Shi'a bias -- just look at this sentence:


 * Hazrat Abbas was also known by the names Abu al-Fadl Abbas, Abul Qasim, Abu Qurba, Sultan of Loyalty, Moon of the Hashemites, Strength of Hussain, Alamdar (Flag Bearer of Islam), Saqqa (Who Fetches Water), Afza sh-Shuada (Most Superior Martyr), last but not the least Babul Hawa’ij (the door to fulfilling needs)

No non-Muslims would give him those honorific titles. No Sunni would call him by those names. Those are Shi'a praise names, Salman, and they don't belong in the encyclopedia except in a section clearly marked "Shi'a POV". Zora 03:36, 5 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Okay Zora, but before you write something about Hazrat Abbas ibn Ali (AS) first you will have to tell us (the Shi’as) what are you going to write about him. Because as far as I know Shi’as and Sunnis respect Hazrat Abbas ibn Ali (AS) because of his knowledge, respect, and love toward the Islamic Prophet Mohammad SAW and his holy household. Thank You Salman


 * Salman, there is no accountability to any specific group here. What about non-Muslims? This isn't Muslimpedia. As for those names, some of them aren't even Arabic - Alamdar is Persian. And the fact that you refer to a person as Hazrat X (AS) is proof enough of bias! em zilch 14:22, 5 June 2006 (UTC)


 * But I didn't say Hazrat is the article I am saying Hazrat in the talk page. I don’t even say (AS) or (SAW) after the name of my Prophet Hazrat Muhammad SAW in the article that I write or edit in wikipedia. As far as the titles of Hazrat Abbas (AS) are concerned than readers should also know they title that Hazrat Abbas as earned thought his bravery and courage. I am saying that I tried my best to keep the article neutral, instead of say Hazrat Abbas (AS), I said Abbas ibn Ali ibn Abu Talib (even thought I don’t feel comfortable saying their name without saying AS after their name), for the sake of being neutral. Hazrat Abbas (AS) is a Shi’a himself and no one knows him better then the Shi’a. All of the braches of Islam respect Hazrat Abbas (AS) because he was loyal to the holy household of Hazrat Muhammad SAW. But anyways, you will have to tell us what you r going to write about Hazrat Abbas (AS) after reading those books that you have. And Hazrat is a common word in Urdu; it is equivalent to Sir in English. In Urdu a man refers to another man as Hazrat. I mean just because I put Hazrat in front of Hazrat Abbas ibn Ali ibn Abu Talib does not mean that whatever is being states is being stated from a Shi’a POV. Thank You Salman


 * Reading this talk page means that Shia's are not allowed to edit any article. Do shias don't have any right to express their opinion in this Encyclopedia (subject to the condition that it is incorrect infront of some other larger sect) . I think an encyclopedia is an information bank where there is load of information and does not pertain to limited resources. what ever is explained in this article Abbas_ibn_Ali refers shia thinking !! but is fact infront of them (millions of shia people). so i dont think so that parts of this article should be deleted because of that above reason. Also some other's POV will be appreciated and that will be considered as an added info but please please dont remove any existing info present. please have a discussion on this talk page for the info you think is wrong and we will provide you the reason. i am updating the titles section regarding your concern. so have a look and see that if it proper now.. Zaidi 20:12, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Article is Shi'a-POV
The article as it stands is pure Shi'a hagiography. It uses Shi'a titles and praises Abbas for his devotion to Ali. We need to give a neutral presentation of facts accepted by all parties (academic historian, Sunni, and Shi'a) and then give the POVs of each of the parties. Zora 18:14, 30 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Agree, it must be completely rewritten from scratch using reliable sources and wikipedic language. Pecher Talk 22:19, 30 May 2006 (UTC)


 * "It uses Shi'a titles and praises Abbas for his devotion to Ali", correct your sources Hazrat Abbas AS was the son of Imam Ali ibn Abu Talib AS and was the younger brother of Imam Hussain ibn Ali ibn Abu Talib AS and he was loved by Imam Hussain ibn Ali ibn Abu Talib AS and his household. And Zora what Shi'as title are you talking about, please give examples from the article. As far as the POV of Muslims is concerned, all branches of Islam respect Hazrat Abbas because of his bravery, courage, and his respect toward the holy household of Hazrat Muhammad SAW. Salman

Adding AS is not acceptable from a neutral point of view, and beside the fact, adding it after Abbas and others is a Shia idea. Sunnis and Ibadis have reserved AS for porphets only. --xx-Mohammad Mufti-xx 08:04, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Issues
The page looks much better but there is still work to do. The 2 main issues seem to be the use of 'hazrat' and citing the various stories/tradition. Why don't we keep 'hazrat' to show the devotion of shias but link it to new article where we explain the use of the word hazrat and bibi and like titles. Salman, bro, the traditions and stories are fine but they must have citations. Zora, the problem with shia bias is that most (maybe all) biographies of this personality are by shia historians or scholars. So i think the stories are fine but must be cited. --Aliasad 07:30, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't think keeping 'hazrat' to show the Shia's devotion is necessary...the entire article shows that, this one word makes little difference in light of it. Nevertheless, this isn't meant to be a "Shia" encyclopedia, and hazrat certainly doesn't belong. It could be mentioned perhaps somewhere that Shias add 'hazrat' before naming members of Ahl al-Bayt, but it's persistant use is against Wikipedia's article standards. See Neutral point of view. --xx-Mohammad Mufti-xx 08:15, 18 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Well i have removed the word Hazrat from this article. Mainly because of the reason that the word Hazrat is an Urdu/Farsi word which is not suitable in English Wikipedia. I do understand that this change was necessary but completely disagree on writing of this artcle from scratch. i will make more changes (explaining citations etc) on this artcle written by me so that our's Shia POV is differentiated. For any kind of other comments please use this discussion page. Regards Zaidi 07:02, 23 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I've removed the title 'Imam' and made some other small changes. Zaidi's right, we need to add citations to verify the accuracy of the whole article.  Will continue working on it... --aliasad 19:33, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

'Sakina binte Husayn' Section
Salman, I did not delete the 'sakina' section. I only put the 'sakina' section into the 'fight and martydom' section to make the article easier to follow and more readable. The article would be more readable and easier to follow (for those not familiar) if the 'Sakina binte Husayn' section was merged into the 'Fight and Martydom' section. Salman, please don't make it hard to continue improving the article. You don't own this article, and every change does not need to be okayed by you. I did not add an unreferenced source. I only reorganized and edited the article for language. Accepting or rejecting my changes needs to be done by a concensus - not by you deciding its better to keep the article the way it is because you wrote it. Try to work with my changes instead of reverting them. See Dispute Resolution. This discussion is not a dispute, but every edit I make seems to be grounds to dispute for you. Oh, and your continued reverting of my changes makes it hard to improve the language of the article which needs a lot of improvement. --aliasad 12:33, 11 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes but in future can you please mention it on the talk page, just so other wikipedians know what's going on in the article. Thank You Salman 14:38, 11 August 2006 (UTC)


 * i think that merging this section with later one is not justice. cos this topic, if explained, is so long that can be considered as a seperate article. however an intro must be present in this article. the reason is that karbala's story revolves much around this section. any way i will be adding more data related with it. please check some more references added. as far as alisad's concern about the language of the book mentioned. so bro translations of these authentic books into English, French, Urdu languages are available easily. Regards Zaidi 19:27, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
 * The concern is about the accurately representing the relationship between 2 personalities. However, this article is only about one of those personalities. For the readability, and flow, of the article, there need not be a seperate 'sakina binte husayn' section. This article does not get better when 3 sentence sections are added - I have removed 'persons killed by abbas' and added some of the content to another section. Try and fit new info into the existing sections. The article need only give a basic summary as to who this personality was so as to inform the uninformed. Most of the references added recently have been in a foreign language. If there translations of these books that are cited, then it is the english version of those books that must be cited.aliasad 18:53, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

This article is STILL Shi'a hagiography
The article reads as if it came from a Shi'a website -- in fact, if I looked, I'll bet I'd find it did come from a Shi'a website. It is a gross embarrassment to WP. Unfortunately, there's only one of me and I'm short of time. Someone PLEASE help by cutting the article down to what you'd find, say, in the Encylopedia of Islam, 2nd edition. Zora 23:52, 21 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Zora as far as article is concerned its purely written by me and edited by many. find it on the world wide web if you can. as far encyclopedia of islam is concerned then this is not authentic in front of many sects. Zaidi 04:01, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Invalid citations
The article references other Wikipedia articles. According to the Wikipedia Guidlines, these should not be used as sources to write other articles. Furthmore, the link to reference number 5 (|"The Martydom of Imam Husain (RA)") is no longer working. The same goes for reference number 12 ("The Great Sacrafice"). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Voiceofplanet (talk • contribs) 15:52, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

al-Abbas Rewrite
I removed the third paragraph of the introduction which states a completely ridiculous story that is purely hagiography about how Muhammed knew of Husayn's hardship and instead of doing the sane thing which is clearly stating to all Muslims what is going to happen and forbidding them to participate, instructs Ali to marry so that he will breed a strong companion to Husayn. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.205.14.136 (talk) 19:23, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Name continuity
I think that it'd be helpful if there was more continuity of the names that are used in this article, i.e. making sure the same name is used to refer to a particular individual throughout the entire article. This includes picking one anglicized spelling of each name(e.g. Hussien vs Husayn). I know it's not easy, as there is no "correct" spelling of the name in English, but I think these changes would help readers (especially those that are unfamiliar with the story) follow the article better. Caduon (talk) 02:39, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Ghazi
It says he is also know with the title Ghazi. Is it worth mentioning in the beginning as another name that he is referred to as or does everyone think it is fine as is? Leefkrust22 (talk) 21:11, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

copyedit
This page had a copyedit tag on it, but it is generally well written. However there are sections in the history which don't quite make sense (see for example the sentences about Husain sending his cousin to Kufa, but his cousin being killed before he arrives. This needs an expert in the subject to fix this up, so I have removed the copyedit tag and replaced with the expert tag - it would be great if someone knowleadgeable in the history could just carefully read through the remaining sections to make sure that everything makes sense. Cheers, JenLouise (talk) 04:46, 11 February 2012 (UTC) (Guild of Copyeditors)

Copy-edit of November 3, 2015
In response to a request for a copy-edit at WikiProject Guild of Copy Editors/Requests, I have reviewed this article and made numerous copy-edits. However, there are so many things that are unclear in this article that I decided the easiest way to make it clear exactly what is unclear was to leave "clarification needed" tags with hidden notes and questions to editors. This article still needs a lot of work, and, as mentioned above, could use the help of a person knowledgeable in the subject. I also wonder about the sourcing, but I'm not an expert on that. Baffle gab1978 Can you add something here regarding the sourcing, or lack thereof? Corinne (talk) 01:27, 4 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Corinne: I'm ready to make clarifications. Mhhossein (talk) 09:13, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 1 one external link on Abbas ibn Ali. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20070213031630/http://www.sunnidawateislami.net:80/htm/moharram/TheGreatSacrifice.htm to http://www.sunnidawateislami.net/htm/moharram/TheGreatSacrifice.htm

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Cheers.—cyberbot II  Talk to my owner :Online 17:19, 11 January 2016 (UTC)