Talk:Abbasid expeditions to East Africa

You originally cited Mukhtar and Abdullahi (which is fine; they are RS), so I went and checked their sourcing. The Historical Dictionary of Somalia has no citations, but presumably Mukhtar is using the same source as in his essay "Islam in Somali History". Abdullahi cites the Book of the Zanj in Cerulli's edition plus Mukhtar and Hersi. And Mukhtar cites Cerulli. I have access to Hersi, and he cites Mathew (and Cerulli). I can only see snippets of Mathew but it appears to be all based on the Book of the Zanj. There is a new edition and English translation of this work in The Azanian Trio. All this to say that I don't think there is any more than can be said about this than what is in the Book and what can be deduced from it. You can read the relevant passage in English on Google Books. If your sources seem to emphasise Mogadishu, it is probably because they are writing Somali history. Srnec (talk) 00:57, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

I am extremely grateful for your contribution to the article my underlying expectation was to make a page explicitly for Abbasid Mogadishu insubordination. However, you appeared to have accomplished unbelievable work in your exploration and had the option to piece together the whole story which is fascinating, anyhow there are a couple of contradictions I have which I would like to highlight.

I've examined The Azanian Trio., it's very fascinating anyhow the facts just concerns al mamuns endeavor to Malindi, regardless I think the article ought to contain the campaigns to Mogadishu and Malindi and their results separately which you haven't done in the article.

Anyhow right off the bat your third section which says: "They sent a statement to Baghdad and the caliph sent a multitude of 50,000 (brought either up in Iraq or Egypt) to Malindi, which caused the leaders of the rebellion to flee into the nyika (brush country). They returned when the army left, but paid the outstanding kharāj and accepted the opinion of al-Maʾmūn.[

please take note that: Malindi is in Kenya. nyika implies bush nation in Swahili.

Also, this is plainly just a reference to Malindi which is on the Swahili coast, not the Somali coast. The article is about the Abbasid response to the uprisings in East Africa., however, the statement doesn't concern each insubordination in east Africa just Malindi. I don't think the circumstances in Malindi is representative for east Africa and Mogadishu in general

As per haji mukhtar: "Mogadishu alongside a few other significant towns revolted, with the Abbasid reacting by sending an expedition". As per Ali Jimale Ahmed, who makes it clear of the continuation of the Mogadishu uprisings and the Abbasid powerlessness to contain them.

according to Jimale Ahmed: "during the caliphate of Harun al Rashid, Mogadishu refused to pay taxes to the Abbasids although al Rashid sent a punitive mission to the region and managed to restore Abbasid sovereignty, the sultanate of Mogadishu remained in constant rebellion"

I'm mindful there were different uprisings yet this was initially intended to be a Somali specific page concerning just the Mogadishu defiance. However am thankful for the work you did, but please don't erase my contributions lets both contribute emphatically to WikipediaYacoob316 (talk) 13:14, 29 June 2020 (UTC)


 * But what basis is there for a Somali-specific page? In the history of Somalia article, feel free to only mention Mogadishu. But it is impossible to separate a Somali defiance from a Zanj (Swahili) one. The source (there's only one!) doesn't allow it. The reference to "constant rebellion" is to what I have glossed as "they stopped sending the kharāj even during the reign of Hārūn and entered open rebellion [later]" based on The Azanian Trio. That is, a constant state of rebelliousness from a few years after 804 until al-Ma'mun's expedition. Srnec (talk) 01:50, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

"How do you know that a show of force at Malindi wasn't enough to bring the governor of Mogadishu back into line"?

Answer: Because Mogadishu and Malindi are two separate cities separated by thousands of miles besides you will need a direct full quote from a reliable source to make that point. Also, we cannot make our own conclusions in accordance with the WP:OR or Wikipedia no original research guideline.

"There is insufficient source material to make the distinctions and separations you want to make":

Answer: Don't you worry about that I have the source material which you used to combine the two undertakings, I will simply separate them into two sections beginning with the Harun al Rashid endeavor first then the al Mamun campaign to the Swahili coast.

If you give me the chance to edit first and show you how it's done, then you can see and do however you see fit.Yacoob316 (talk) 12:31, 1 July 2020 (UTC)