Talk:Abdul-Qādir Bedil

POV issues
Here is some discussions from our talk pages. Please help in resolving the conflict:

Bidel Dehlavi
Shayan Azeemi (DK)

With all respect, i want to say that, Abdul-Qādir Bēdil isnt from Iran, in real Iran didnt existed in that time, Iran was under Afghanistans hands, so people please stop talking about that Abdul-Qādir Bēdil was helped by Iranien or have been studied pretty well in Iran, because Abdul-Qādir Bēdil was an Afghan and will always be an Afghan in the History of world, you guys cant change it. And let me remind you Iranien people something, Afghanistans´s language is Dari/Pashto, stop calling it Persien or whatever u guys call it. Thank You Very Much.

This comment was postet by Azeemi@live.dk (Shayan Azeemi)

Hi Ariana

Just a comment on Bidel:

Iranian experts have been working on Bidel over the last three decades. We have hundreds of persian poets and I think Bidel is among those that have been studied pretty well in Iran. I don't see any point to disrespect Iranian experts. Persian literature is our common heritage. You know that most research works on Hafiz, Ferdowsi, Rumi, ... have been done in Iran. But I think it is not fair to say that Firdawsi, Rumi and Hafiz are unknown in Afghanistan because Iranian worked more on them. Sangak 07:52, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Just a comment by an Afghan researcher:

ظرف چند سال‌، بيدل چنان موقعيتی در اين کشور می ‌يابد که بيش از بيست هزار نسخه غزليات او به چاپ می‌رسد و چندين کتاب معتبر درباره اين شاعر نوشته می‌شود

Regards. Sangak 07:57, 1 March 2007 (UTC)


 * There's no doubt that there have been recent works in Iran on Bedil's poetry, in the last 5 to 10 years. By saying that Bedil is more famous in Afghanistan than in Iran, is that in Afghanistan Bedil has a status like that of Hafiz and Sanayee next to Iranians, and it has the same status as Rumi and Hafiz for Afghans; used in everyday life and largely used in Ghazal Music. The only reason is the language style of Hindi poetry and its expressions, which differs widely from the Iraqi school (western Persia).


 * Iranians state that Bedil's poetry contains a lots of Gholo in its Tashbehat and Iste'ara, and of course is true. But for Afghans, it adds more in is delicateness. So what I have written, was meant to express the status of Bedil among common people and not how much work and researches done.Ariana310 10:05, 1 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I am familiar with these arguments. In any case one can not ignore that Iranians were behind Bidel's international recognition and the majority of books written on Bidel were published in Iran. I agree that Bidel has a stronger presence in Afghan music. I can understand this. On the other side Rumi has more presence in Iranian music. One can not argue that Rumi has a higher status in Iran than in Afghanistan. Here we can only talk based on evidence and statistics. Sangak 10:14, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

You can also have a look at THIS.

In contrary, I removed your part of sentence (he is respected in Afghanistan and Tajikistan), because he is respected equally all over the Iranian Cultural Continent as being a great Persian Poet and founder of Indian school.Ariana310 10:13, 1 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I have already read Kazemi's article. The above quote is from him.Sangak 10:17, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Mohammad Reza Shafiei-Kadkani who is perhaps Iran's leading literary critic and distinguished professor at Tehran University has conducted a long-term research project on Bidel. Sangak 10:20, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, no doubt much researches done on Bedil's works from 1990's onward in Iran, since Afghanistan suffered from civil war and lost the majority of its great scholars. Remember, I did not say anything about the researches and works, only about his familiarity among people.Ariana310 10:26, 1 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't see what you mean by being "more famous":


 * He has more presence in Afghan music. (agree)
 * He has a higher status in the heart of Afghan! (disagree/ subjective/pov)
 * He has a language (relatively) unaccessible to ordinary Iranians (disagree/As an Iranian I can tell you that ordinary Iranians can not digest the language and style of most of Persian poets including Saeb Tabrizi and even Simin Behbahani!)
 * He has a language unaccessible to Iranian experts (strongly disagree)
 * If you ask a random normal Iranian, there is more chance that he/she has heard the name of Bidel than Saib Tabrizi. (my personal idea)

Finally I don't like such arguments and I think if you try to enter this game you will be the loser as I can easily provide statistics to show that almost all of these persian poets have a higher status in Iranian research Institutes than anyother country. I don't like to enter this game though. Sangak 10:30, 1 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, you are calling it a game?! Neither, I would like to start such a thing.

You are insisting on researches and works done on Bedil in Iran, and I have no objection. I agree. And you have already added it in the article. So I do not see any further argument. Thanks Ariana310 10:44, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I did not use any personal feeling as saying "in the hearts of Afghans". May I call it your personal understanding?
 * I never said that His language is unaccessible to Iranian scholars and Iranian people, did I? I said: "his language is not easily comprehensible for Iranians (do not include personally the Iranian schoars) as the language of Hafiz, Sadi, Khayam or others". I see a great difference between "unaccessible" and "incomprehensible".
 * Saa'eb Tabrezi is also a poet of Indian school, brings no importance in your point. And for your second point, Iranians heard more of Bedil than Saa'eb, I strongly disagree.
 * At this time, I replaced the term with the term User:Ariana suggested (incomprehensible). I don't care which one is used incomprehensible or inaccessible. To me it is just playing with words. The main message is the same. Sangak 12:56, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Playing with words?! .... and that would be in your arguments?! Should I take "lazy" and "stupid" as the same meaning?Ariana310 10:52, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Well I am not an advanced English speaker like you ! The main message is there. The message is there. Sangak 10:57, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Look-up in dictionary:
 * Inaccessible: not capable of being reached only with great difficulty or not at all
 * incomprehensible: impossible to understand or comprehend

Here I replace the words as you prefer. Sangak 12:31, 1 March 2007 (UTC)


 * No negative intention dear Sangak. It was just to give an example.Ariana310 10:59, 1 March 2007 (UTC)


 * "Saa'eb Tabrezi is also a poet of Indian school, brings no importance in your point." Ofcourse it makes a difference. Read Kazemi's article.
 * "And for your second point, Iranians heard more of Bedil than Saa'eb, I strongly disagree."(Are you Iranian? They have similar status.)


 * "his language is not easily comprehensible for Iranians (do not include personally the Iranian schoars) as the language of Hafiz, Sadi, Khayam or others".
 * Iranians are either expert or non-expert. I discussed both above. What is your problem with it?!
 * Also your argument leads to the following: "the language of Sadi, Hafiz, Rumi, etc are not easily comprehensible for Afghans as of Bidel."

Sangak 11:05, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Also your argument leads to the following: "the language of Sadi, Hafiz, Rumi, etc are not easily comprehensible for Afghans as of Bidel." - That's your personal conclusion from my statements!! Sorry, I am done with this nonobjective discussion. Ariana310 11:08, 1 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Great logic! So you are bilingual! Sangak 11:10, 1 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Also please do not replace "Bidel Dehlavi" with "Bedil Dehlavi". Both are used and must be included. Sangak 12:33, 1 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I still insists on my point that the positions of Saa'eb Tabrizi and Bidel in today's Iran (since 1980s) is quite similar (or perhaps Bidel is more famous as he is more in the news).Sangak 13:00, 1 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I arranged our discussions here. Both of us (me and Ariana) are going a bit emotional. I think it is better that others continue this discussion. Hope it will come to a conclusion in future. Thanks. Sangak 13:07, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

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