Talk:Abdul-Rahman Al-Sudais/Archive 1

This article is too biased
I have found this article too biased against the Imam. He is one of the most widely respected scholars in the Muslim world. Whoever wrote the current version clearly does not want to know the other side of the story. Anyway, according to Wiki's standards, this article is supposed to be neutral. It seems to be far from neutral. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 221.134.249.115 (talk • contribs).
 * While I see no reason why this article is biased, I do agree that it is in need of expansion (this is why it is marked as a stub now) to present his credentials in full. Everyone will see then that the words like "Monkeys and pigs and worshippers of false Gods who are the Jews and the Zionists." come from an influential scholar, highly respected in the Muslim world, rather than from a marginal, universally despised bigot. Pecher Talk 16:34, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

New edits - 22 June 06
I do not think that this article is now too biased or unsourced (at least compared with the rest of Wikipedia) and I therefore removed the ugly boxes with hands. Regarding the claim that His Eminence memorised the whole book at the age of 12, I removed it until somebody finds sources for it; I do not believe that this is a fact of key importance. - Regarding the title of the 2nd chapter: I think that "controversial" is too weak, and moreover there is nothing very controversial about it - it is simply a textbook example of hate speech.--Ioannes Pragensis 07:01, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Why 'hate'?
Well I think you shouldn't have removed the word 'controversial' and replaced it with 'hate'. This has made the article biased once again. The Sheikh's sermons may be considered as hate only by some Jews and Christians. What about the Muslims? And please remember, the Sheikh was referring to the oppressive Jews of the state of Israel, who have illegally occupied Palestinian lands. There is no dispute about the fact that their continued occupation is illegal under international law. Also, when referring to Christian and Hindu people, he was just reffering to their own practices of what amounts to worshipping 'false gods'in Islamic terms. To be neutral, you have to consider the viewpoint of Muslims as well. The Sheikh is among the most highly-respected scholars of Islam and certainly not a bigot. 221.134.248.125 16:41, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Dear anonymous colleague, Wikipedia is not to be written from Muslim (or any other particular) point of view. Instead we are trying to achieve a neutral point of wiew (WP:NPOV). If somebody says about a group of people thet they are "monkeys and pigs who should be annihilated", then it is a hate speech and nothing else. And the gentleman is speaking not only about Zionists, as you assert, but about "the Jews and the Zionists" - "the Jews" are much broader category, including many people who are against the occupation. So I think I am not biased, but only give things their proper names. Greetings --Ioannes Pragensis 18:06, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Bias
As you can see, the entire point of the article seems to be attacking the Imam, not telling his real job: to be reciting the Quran (I don't care about bias against the Quran, believe or disbelieve). Muslims should recite the Quran in nice and beautiful tones. Imam Sudais does an awesome job of doing that yet no one has written anything much on that. As for the "sermons attacking Jews and Christians," that I believe is full of bias. People keep removing "promotion websites' so that no one hears what he really does for a living. If Imam Sudais really did say the hate speech I disagree with him then. But let's focus on his real job, shouldn't we? --Nhgulam 15:08, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, then focus on his real job, write how he changed the Quran recitation, which type of tones he prefers etc.; but do not remove other relevant information here.--Ioannes Pragensis 20:26, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I apologize for removing that relevant information. I am new here anyways. --Nhgulam 15:08, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
 * OK, does not matter, we can revert it easily. Happy editing! (And, by the way, use please your signature here on discussion pages - the third button from right, produces four tildas.)--Ioannes Pragensis 07:26, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Biased section
An entire section of the article was based on nothing but second hand gossip, under the guise of being from a reliable source, the BBC. I've deleted it per WP:Biographies of living persons. -- Kendrick7talk 06:38, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
 * You may call it a "gossip", but the source is nevertheless reliable. Beit Or 07:48, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Stop making stuff up
This man is one of the foremost scholars in the world at this time in Islam. This man deserves respect. although it is understandable if someone does not agree with with his choice of faith, it is completely unacceptable for people to input false information just because of prejudice against Islam, and whoever's doing it knows who they are. Unless someone has verified information, with a RELIABLE external link, then it would be geratly appreciated if you DO NOTHING to vandalise this page. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ericwong (talk • contribs) 17:29, 10 December 2006 (UTC).
 * What exactly do you think does not come from reliable sources? Beit Or 17:37, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I would rather say that you, Ericwong, destroy the quality of the article by deleting sourced information and by adding weasel words and unverified claims. I assure you for my person that I have no prejudices against Islam, I have rather sympathies for good and peaceful believers of all faiths. So stop please personal attacks and read the fundamental guidelines of Wikipedia you've got from me today.--Ioannes Pragensis 19:03, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

A link
http://www.iccuk.org/media/reports/bbc_panorama_programme_the_question_of_leadership.htm

Neutrality
Remove Neutrality tag - the rant on the talk page relates to older versions of the article, otherwise no clearly stated reasons for it.--Ioannes Pragensis 10:31, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Why does the BBC link say "This should be checked against transmission for accuracy and to ensure the clear identification of individual speakers". Does this suggest that this transcript may not be accurate?Bless sins 17:01, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Which BBC link?--Ioannes Pragensis 14:39, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
 * "A question of Leadership".
 * I guess that this is a standard warning for all similar transcriptions of controversial shows, made mostly for legal purposes. It should be about as accurate as all similar transcripts. If there were clear mistakes in it, the Moslem Council would probably point at it in its statement.--Ioannes Pragensis 06:32, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
 * The absence of criticism from Muslim groups does not justify anything. What do you mean by "standard warning". there are plenty of pages on BBC that don't make this warning. Even is this is a standard warning, then it shows that BBC itself is not confidence in its sources. Why should we any more?Bless sins 22:42, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

If someone does not provide an adequate response for this, i will remove this, considering the BBC self admits that its program may be errarneous.Bless sins 20:36, 18 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Bless sins, the more you attempt to whitewash hate speech, the more you discredit yourself. ←Humus sapiens ну? 00:59, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Please don't create a straw man arugment. The question (in this section) is regarding accuracy, not neutrality. "Whitewashing" is completely irrelevent.Bless sins 05:00, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Standard legal boilerplate to prevent lawsuits. It is sufficiently verifiable for wikipedia, and much more so than some of the smaller websites without the same level of oversight. -- Avi 14:10, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

WP:BLP
WP:BLP says "The views of critics should be represented if their views are relevant to the subject's notability and are based on reliable sources, and so long as the material is written in a manner that does not overwhelm the article or appear to side with the critics' material. "

Here criticism of Sudais is presented "in a manner that does not overwhelm the article".Bless sins 03:29, 12 March 2007 (UTC)


 * What you had changed did not overwhelm anything. Bowdlerization of text is as much a POV violation as vilification. Well sourced statements do not violate WP:BLP. Thank you. -- Avi 04:39, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Again if well sourced statements overwhelm an article about a living person then they violate WP:BLP. Bless sins 04:43, 12 March 2007 (UTC)


 * This does not overwhelm the article. Neither does the categories. Please edit in accordance with wiki policies and guidelines. If you have other information from well sourced sites about other activities of this man, by all means add him, but it is not tyhe fault of wikipedia if he is rather notable for his virulent antsemitic statements. The article would be improved by your adding content, not removing verified information that makes you feel uncomfortable; which is against policy as well. -- Avi 04:47, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Until there is a sufficient amount of positive material already in the article, WP:BLP forbids adding only critical material.
 * I believe that is a misunderstanding of the policy. Perhaps you should ask for comment on Wikipedia talk:Biographies of living persons. -- Avi 19:02, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
 * BTW, I don't mean to violate WP:POINT, but take a look at the talk page of Martin Gilbert. On that article users forbade any criticism of the man until sufficiently positive material about him was on the article.Bless sins 18:41, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Having never edited on that page as far as I can recall, you may wish to consult with the editors for that page, and ask them to comment here. However, removing accurately attributed information because it makes you uncomfortable is a violation of NPOV. Sometimes, there exist people without much redeeming information. If you can find it, add it, by all means! -- Avi 19:02, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Avraham, wiki BLP says that "...so long as the material is written in a manner that does not overwhelm the article." You edits clearly overwhelm the article. Please stop violateing BLP, this is rpetty serious.Bless sins 19:06, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

The answer here is not to keep the article in a stub to suppress information you do not like. It is the responsibility of wiki editors to find other things about this man. And if all there is that is reliably sourced is negative, so be it.

The above is upheld in the article; there are reliable third-party sources. Further, this is the view of mainstrea,m Western media, or the majority opinion, not the minority opinion. Your responsibility is to bring OTHER sources that debate/argue the point, not to hide information. Please re-real WP:BLP carefully. Whitewashing and information deletion is as just a serious issue. Thank you. -- Avi 20:17, 12 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Allow me to support Avi - you should, Bless sins, concentrate on adding sourced info and not on deleting it. BLP is about unsourced libel, not about well-researched citations. If all articles were to be balanced in your sense, Bless sins, then the article about Hitler would be empty... - I agree with you, Bless sins, that the Sudais article can be better - but this can be achieved only by broadening its scope and not by narrowing it. Greetings and happy editing to both of you, --Ioannes Pragensis 08:15, 13 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Firstly, according to mainstream media, Hitler is dead. Secondly, BLP says "The views of critics should be represented if their views are relevant to the subject's notability and are based on reliable sources, and so long as the material is written in a manner that does not overwhelm the article or appear to side with the critics' material". Clearly BLP is against overwhelming the article with critics' material. But perhaps you, Ioannes Pragensis, can take a look at the Talk:Martin Gilbert and take a look at the controversy there.Bless sins 16:56, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Last I checked, this article is about Abdul Rahman Al-Sudais, not Martin Gilbert. Everything is sourced, so there is no violation of WP:BLP. There is no reson to boedlerize the article, because editors are either undesirous or incapable of finding positive or neutral things to say about this man. Your job is to BUILD the article, not delete things that make you uncomfortable. His antisemitism is well-documented and well-displayed. If that makes you uncomfortable, I'm sorry, but it is verified and well-cited, and central to his notability. -- Avi 19:54, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Again please answer the issue: you are not to overwhlem the article with criticism of Sudais. That is precisely what you are doing.Bless sins 19:57, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Firstly, I have asked for comment here Wikipedia talk:Biographies of living persons. I hope you join in and we get some form of consensus. Secondly, even were you to be correct, that in no way shape or form justifies removal of the categories. His antisemitism is well documented in his own words, regardless of how much of it will be displayed in the article. -- Avi 20:05, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Bless sins, I do not think that the criticism overwhelms the article. The controversies about Sudais' antisemitic speeches are just what makes him notable here in the Western world. If you wish to make the article better, please start with adding the reference for his Ramadan prayer and do not delete sourced material.--Ioannes Pragensis 21:42, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I have joined the commenting you directed me to. However, I will not settle this issue until a proper interpretation for "as the material is written in a manner that does not overwhelm the article" is provided.

In the meanwhile I have some more objections:
 * 1) BLP says "[criticism] does not...appear to side with the critics' material. BY putting Sudais in the category of antisemitism, we are doing exactly that.
 * 2) Who is making the allegation of antisemitism "vilifying" anyways?
 * 3) If we are going to quote Sudais' sermon, we'll have to quote all of it for context. On the other hand we can choose not to quote any of it.Bless sins 22:39, 15 March 2007 (UTC)


 * That is because you are interpreting Category:Anti-Semitic people to be pejorative. I am sure Al-Sudais himself wears it as a badge of pride. Secondly, It is his own words which place him there, not your or my criticism. -- Avi 23:00, 15 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Agree, and moreover the parts of article which you delete do not contain only criticism, they mention more peaceful citations of Sudais and reactions of Moslems. - We cannot of course quote whole sermons (from both space and copyright reasons) but we provide all links and citations, so everybody is able to find the whole text easily and read it. - You used Gilbert as an example, let me allow to use Khalid Sheikh Mohammed who was on the Main page today. Most of the article about the living person contains criticism - at least from my point of view, because I think that killing innocent people is very bad and condemnable. And still the admins who edit the Main page used this article. Therefore it seems to me that your understanding of BLP is not correct and you should perhaps re-think it in light of this example. Peace,--Ioannes Pragensis 23:26, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Avraham, why don't you just answer the questions. 1, 2 and 3. Has Al-Sudais said he is anti-Semitic? Then how does he wear it as a badge of pride?Bless sins 17:12, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Calling Jews "monkeys and pigs", especially with whatthe pig represents in both Judaism and Islam, and saying that they are "rats" and should be "exterminated" when people such as those of my family members who survived still have numbers tatooed on their arms from the LAST time someone tried to exterminate us, is proof positive enough to any observer who is not in denial, I believe :( -- Avi 03:41, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
 * So you are the one who says Sudais is anti-Semitic. I'm sorry, you're not notable or reliable enough to be a source. Also, you allege the comments "vilify" Jews. You have not provide a source other than that. Also, i'm going to remove a sermon that has been quoted. there is no reason that this particular sermon is more notable than other sermons of his.Bless sins 20:32, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
 * His own words are more than enough, but to be 100% above board, I have now sourced it from the Anti-Defamation League. -- Avi 02:47, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I added another reliable source specifically calling him antisemitic. -- Avi 02:58, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
 * While i was at it, I found a better source for the Dubai award, a photo, and infoboxed the article. -- Avi 07:33, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

How is the anti-Defamation league a reliable source? At best it is a controversial and one sided source aimed at attacking those who attack Jews. Also, who is making the "vilifying" allegation? BTW, please don't re-insert the out of ocntext quote I removed.Bless sins 02:28, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
 * The Anti-Defamation League fulfills all requirements of WP:ATT. You may wish to review the policy. -- Avi 02:49, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
 * In particular, please review Attribution/FAQ. -- Avi 02:50, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Can you please quote the part(s) of Wp:ATT that would seem to suggest the ADL is reliable. Thanks.Bless sins 13:11, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

The ADL is accepted as an authority on anti-semitism. It may not be to your liking, but it is in accordance with policy. -- Avi 13:50, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Says who? In any case please cite the person who wrote the literature that the article currently links to. I'd like to what qualifications he/she has in relation to antisemitism and Islam/Sudais.Bless sins 14:12, 22 March 2007 (UTC)


 * The ADL is extremely well known throughout the US in terms of antisemitism. Perhaps being from Canada, you are unaware of this. -- Avi 14:57, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes I'm not aware of this. Please provide a reliable source for this.Bless sins 18:28, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Also the "International Broadcasting Bureau of Broadcasting Board of Governors" source seems to be more a letter to editor than an actual reliable source. Please state the person who wrote it and his/her qualifications relevent to the topics of this article.Bless sins 14:14, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
 * And the same for "Gossett, Sherrie". Hwo is he/she, and what qualifies him/her to speak on Sudais, Islam and antisemitism.Bless sins 14:15, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Any different from Za'za', Bassam, other than the name? WorldNetDaily is as reliable as Gulf News. Do you disagree? -- Avi 15:00, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
 * There is a difference between reporting facts and analyzing them. Any reporter can quote a prominent personality, all they need is to record the words. On the other hand, to analyze one's words and suggest they are anti-semitism, is much different. Please provide the information I ahve asked you to provide.Bless sins 18:28, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I am willing to accept WorldNetDaily as a reliable source, so long as wee attribute the source, and not suggest that it is fact. However, I still need info on other sources, especially the name of the person who wrote the material.Bless sins 19:23, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Edit war?
Please gentlemen, do not start edit wars here. Try to speak quietly, hear each other, do not make bold changes in the article against consensus of other editors. Thank you,--Ioannes Pragensis 22:10, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Deleting sourced and cited material
Please refrain from deleting material that is well and reliably sourced, as well as relevant, without a discussion here. Removing material simply because one feels that it paints a person in too good or too bad of a light is improper, and a seeming violation of WP:NPOV. Pleae remember that Nuetral point-of-view does not mean that the article can say neither good nor bad about the subject. Rather, that (emphasis added is my own) “All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view, representing views fairly, proportionately and without bias.” If the reliable literature predominantly paints a person, object, or idea in one light, that light must be the dominant theme in the article, in accordance with the "proportionate" clause. Whitewashing or vilifying (as the case may be) an article to achieve a "neutral" tone is both an improper representation as well as a violation of WP:NPOV and would need to be reverted as vandalism. All editors do need to review the appropriate policies before editing articles which may have contoversy surounding them. Thank you. -- Avi 13:56, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
 * hten why limit ourselves to jsut this sermon. I can finf many many other sermons as well. Why not quote them all? You've not shown any reliable source that suggests that this particular sermon is more notable than other ones.Bless sins 14:09, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

This sermon is an example of his beliefs. Another similar sermon with a reliable source may be used as well. The sermon itself need not be notable, it does not have its own article, Sudais is notable. The extent of his antisemitism is part of what makes him notable for the purposes of English Wikipedia. Examples thereof are relevant; it need not be THIS PARTICULAR one, but having such an example is appropriate, and this was the one that for now passed WP:RS and WP:V. -- Avi 14:13, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Then perhaps we should quote the entire sermon. It is unfair to take man's views out of context. Who are you and I to say that other parts of the same sermon are not as important as this part?Bless sins 14:16, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Can you find anything in any other part of the sermon that would in any way shape or form mitigate the antisemitism? Please quote it here. -- Avi 14:58, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
 * So, basically you want the inclsuion of material as long as Sudais is portrayed to be anti-semitic. But as soon as anything doesn't portray him bieng anti-semitic, you are opposed to its inclusion in the article. This is clear violation of WP:BLP, not to mention WP:NPOV.Bless sins 18:21, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Please read WP:SOAPBOX.Bless sins 19:22, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Where did you get that from? If you can find some equally reliable sources that say this man is not anti-Semitic, they belong in this article as well. If you cannot find such sources, that is not a reason to delete the sources that say he is. Unless I misunderstood you? -- Avi 05:22, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I said "Then perhaps we should quote the entire sermon", to whic you responded "Can you find anything in any other part of the sermon that would in any way shape or form mitigate the antisemitism? Please quote it here." WHy are you only after material that "mitigates" antisemitism? Can a man not say anything else besides antisemtism? Why not include parts of his sermon thet are not alleged (by you) to be antisemitic?Bless sins 05:29, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Because the section is titled "Statements vilifying Jews and other non-muslims". If you wish to create a new section titled "Speeches" that is a different story. -- Avi 05:33, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Right. So we can quote loads of his sermons in a section called "speeches"? In any case which of your sources actually uses the word "vilify"?Bless sins 05:36, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Might I remind all users that WP:BLP says criticism should not "appear to side with the critics' material." Please don't portray criticism as fact, it's against WP:BLP.Bless sins 20:09, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
 * This is a completely wrong interpretation of WP:BLP, If your reading of the policy were correct, then any negative material would have to be attributed to sources. That is at odds with common sense and the generally established practice. Beit Or 20:12, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
 * THis is what WP:BLP says. I'm not making anything up, you can check out BLP for yourself. In anycase, your edits are very hypcritical in the light of articles like Martin Gilbert where you have removed all criticism, regardless of attribution.Bless sins 20:37, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I am not disputing the correctness of the quote from WP:BLP, just poiting out that your intepretation is nonsensical. Al-Sudais' statements on non-Muslims are not "criticism", but facts drawn from multiple, independent, reliable sources. Beit Or 21:15, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Allegations of anti-semitism are definetly criticism. Infact, his statements on non-Muslims are disputed. But again I would like to draw attention to your double standards on this article and Martin Gilbert and Bat Ye'or where you have been silencing criticism.Bless sins 21:21, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
 * No, documenting his speech is not "criticism", just reporting. Beit Or 21:23, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes but those "reports" are disputed by other media outlets who claim that his words are misrepresented. Clearly the "documenting his speech" is an allegation in an attempt to make Sudais look bad.Bless sins 21:30, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Disputed, not a valid dispute. 9-11 is also "disputed." Why should anyone take these disputes seriously? What makes them scholarly enough to be ligitimate disputes?--Sefringle 04:53, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
 * 9/11 was reported by hundreds of media sources. No serious sources dispute its occurence. This is a bit different. This is disputed by the Muslim Council of Britain, a pretty netural organisation with no political ties with any group. Its general secretary was even knighted by the Queen of the United Kingdom. Thus if it disptues something, it is assuredly a serious dispute.Bless sins 05:16, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Is that all? It seems like they are the only ones accusing BBC of being liars. Even some muslim sources have admitted he said this. Sounds like undue weight.--Sefringle 06:40, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
 * The Muslim Council of Britain is so neutral that it boycotts the Holocaust Memorial Day in the UK. Beit Or 19:00, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Umm no. The link you point to suggests that some politicians accuse MCB of boycotting Holocaust Memorial Day, while MCB itself denies this. The MCB is infact is calling for the remembrance of all persecuted nations ("Genocide Day"). Nothing non-neutral about remembering everyone regardless of ethnicity.Bless sins 03:49, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
 * "The MCB policy of refusing to send representatives is widely perceived as a boycott, and has been condemned by a variety of British public figures and organizations..." Beit Or 05:59, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
 * The only people that condmen it are some politicians and activist groups. Then again it quite natural for politicians and activists to condemn others, it's almost like what they do.Bless sins 14:03, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Why is this so-called "scholar"...
Why is this so-called "scholar" portrayed as a becon and a role-model for all Muslims? He is loved only by Wahhabis and some Salafis, meaning that the vast majority of Sunni Muslims and Shia Muslims don't like this man. Armyrifle 13:17, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
 * This, along with a lost of other stuff, is in the article because this is the perspective of some wikipedian.Bless sins 16:47, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
 * If you have reliable sources documenting this man's mariginalism in Islamic society, by all means add it. If you have reliable sources documenting this man's importance in Isalmic society, by all means add it too. But please do not remove informatin because the current existing facts lead to uncomfortability. I agree, this article needs sxpansion; I'm sure there are many more things that can be added such as history, birth, family, etc. That is why it is rated start and not B; we need more; help us out. Thanks! -- Avi 18:50, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Interestingly enough, at the top of this talk page, an anon said about al-Sudais: "He is one of the most widely respected scholars in the Muslim world." Beit Or 18:57, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Like I said claims here are based upon OR.Bless sins 03:46, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

If someone decided that Fred Flintstone was a leader of the Muslim world, would that stay up until documents proved otherwise? I live in Morocco and the extent of Sudais' importance is pretty much Saudi distributed cassettes and the yearly appearance on 2m for Hajj. Don't foist Salafi whack-jobs on the rest of us. The best documented evidence you need is this: we in Morocco have existed and contine to live under the Maliki school of Islamic Jurisprudence, not that of wahabi/salafi school;  i.e, Sudais or his backers. So, except in the al-Qeda pockets within Moroccan slums, the claim of his importance is mostly laughable in Morocco.

You say only Wahhabis like this guy.... I am Hanafi and I think he's one of the best Muslim scholars out there. He is not antisemitic; he can't be because he's Arab and Arabs are also Semites. He isn't anti-Jewish... he's anti-Israel because of all the crimes they commit (flotilla raid in May/June 2010, off the top of my head). A lot of ignorant people think anti-Jewish and anti-Israel is synonymous and a lot of Muslims think so as well....seriously people get your facts straight. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.204.9.178 (talk) 02:19, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Career section
Can someone please source the statements about Sudais's renditions of the Qur'an? It's been tagged since February. Thank you. -- Avi 04:47, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Archives
there is no reason for an archive right now. I've seen longer talk pages.Bless sins 04:51, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I know; but in my experience, people don't tend to read longer talk pages. -- Avi 04:56, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
 * If you want, you can archive everything above (but not including) "Neutrality". BTW, please respond there as I've raised a point about BBC's accuracy.Bless sins 05:02, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Antisemitism and racism
I do not think that the title "Antisemitism and racism" is well chosen. I do not see why Sudais should be described as a racist. He does not slander races, but religions and nations - e.g. not white persons but Christians, not Semites but Jews. It is indeed possible that there is a bit of racism in it, but not clearly visible, at least as far as I know - WP:V :-) --Ioannes Pragensis 08:11, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Good point. The previous title included vilification (which I felt was a more provocative term) of other people besides Jews, so I thought there should be another term besides "antisemitism", but you are likely correct that "racism" is the wrong term. Do you have an alternative, perhaps? -- Avi 12:21, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I am sorry but I dont. For the time being, I renamed it to the "Controversial sermons" but I am not sure what title should be used.--Ioannes Pragensis 13:16, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

I think the best title is "sermons vilifing non-Muslims" or "antisemitic sermons." It should be made clear that this guy is an antisemite and a racist.--Sefringle 21:58, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
 * There is blatant antisemitism and anti-hinduism in the sermons, but where is there racism per se. His demarcation seems to be religious and not racial. -- Avi 00:03, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Arabs are Semites. Being anti-Jewish isn't being racist. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.226.157.231 (talk) 21:05, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Quote restoration to footnotes
Since user:Bless sins seems to be perturbed about the length of the quotes sections, yet removing the quotes in toto is inappropriate for verification purposes, I have restored the pertinent quotes into the footnotes of the citations. The article text is now, hopefully, smooth prose and paraphrase, with pertinent quotations down below. This way, the text is not overlong and choppy, yet the information is immediately available. I also fixed a few improper links and updated citation templates. -- Avi 15:54, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Family, wife, children, etc.
Can anyone help to flesh this part of Sudais's life out? -- Avi 20:43, 28 March 2007 (UTC) It is said that sudais's son is Ahmad saud!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! He also is a very good reciterer Written by Samira Abdillkadir Ahmed > MASHA-ALLAH HE IS AN EXELLENT RECITER,MAY ALLAH PROTECT HIM FROM BAD EYES — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.84.141.186 (talk) 11:08, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

Vertical format for cite templates
Please leave the vertical formats. The article text does not appear different, and the citations in the code are easier to verify. -- Avi 19:49, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
 * It is also harder to edit, since it is harder to tell where the text and references starts and stops --Sefringle 19:54, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

The ref's always end in a tag, and I always have that at the beginning of a line, so it should be easier to edit, actually. -- Avi 20:14, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Non-reliable source
Can you explain what you mean by "Non-reliable source "Citizen Jounalism". This is does not seem to be even an established organization; more like a blog"?Bless sins 14:31, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
 * The sentence is in English, and the grammatical structure seems sound. I am unsure as to what is troubling you about the meaning inherent in the sentence, unless, perhaps, you are not a native or fluent speaker of the English language? -- Avi 14:36, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Can you explain how Ohmy News in a "Non-reliable source"? Why do you think it is a blog? Finally why did you remove the remark about Sudais' comments being "overblown" by media? Oh, stop attacking my language.Bless sins 14:54, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh My news engages in "citizen journalism," it is not a reliable, eben ostensibly, unbiased news site, but a place where people post their take on journalism. It is more similar to a blog than CNN/NBC/Fox/Al Jazeera/etc. -- Avi 14:51, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Annihilation of Jews
Not sure when Sudais called for the annihilation of Jews as claimed in the lead of the article.

Please provide the quote. Thanks.Bless sins (talk) 00:20, 31 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Source brought. -- Avi (talk) 07:13, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Hi - if you are referring to the telegraph uk op-ed piece, the quote is second-hand. I'm having a hard time finding the actual source for "monkeys and pigs who should be annihilated". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.249.52.202 (talk) 13:08, 2 November 2008 (UTC)


 * The Daily Telegraph and Charles Moore are reliable and verifiable sources. Unless you are calling both of them liars, in which case, we need to remove all references ever sourced to the newspaper. The piece is quoting Sudais, and as a secondary source, is eminently acceptable. Monkeys and pigs is also sourced to the Panorama transcript. -- Avi (talk) 13:30, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Ok. I re-read my request for a quote source. Nobody was called a liar or suggested so. But your Charles Moore/Daily Telegraph (no point in making them seperate, is there?) reference is to an opinion page, not a report. And I am still requesting the source to which the opinion piece in opinion section of the Daily Telegraph is. I think when the lead of the article sets the tone for the character of the man, you should have something more substantial than that. Most other online sources reference the opinion piece, so I couldn't get further than that. Can you find something better than an opinion piece? It will help the article appear encyclopedic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.137.229.47 (talk) 13:48, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Part of what makes this man notable in the English-speaking world is his comparison of Jews to monkeys and pigs, and his calls for them to be destroyed. The lead is the proper place for something of this magnitude. Furthermore, the Moore's opinions in the piece is not being used to support the claim, Moore's QUOTE of Sudais is being used to support the claim. We do not need the source for Moore's quote, as the Daily Telegraph is a reliable source, and we are using it as a secondary source which is actually preferable. Again, we are not using Moore's OPINIONS about Sudais; those would have to be attributed to Moore. But the quote is Sudais's, and is appropriate, both in terms of sourcing and in terms of placement. -- Avi (talk) 15:08, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

But you are using his opinions until you source the quotes - unless you have a source from a Daily Telegraph article. Why don't we have a date and a reporter for this quote? I think that the normal way to create reports - who, what, where, etc. RIght now we have an op-ed in the Daily Telegraph and nothing more. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.137.229.47 (talk) 19:49, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
 * No, you are mistaken. He did not say it was an OPINION that Sudais said what he said; he is QUOTING Sudais, and then proceeds to give his opinion ABOUT what Sudais said. The difference is crystal clear. -- Avi (talk) 20:24, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Where is the quote's original source from which Moore formed his opinion (within this op-ed piece)? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.154.127.49 (talk) 12:04, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

For a educated reader, Its about having sources (especially from a partisan op-ed piece), and quoting them directly. Unsourced quotes are suspicious. Where is the verifiable source of the quote, so we can look at it. Wikipedia needs less blog-like articles of this type. We should leave the many unsourced, or poorly sourced articles to the bogosphere and try a little harder to provide real research on Wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.154.127.49 (talk) 12:17, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

and pigs and worshippers of tyrants.…May God's curses follow them until the Day of Judgment.…Thus, they deserve the curse of God, His angels, and all people." so technically he is not praying or suggesting annihilation in this one.
 * http://www.ibb.gov/editorials/09844.htm
 * [ http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=36482 http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=36482 ]
 * Originally the Montreal Gazette, May 18, 2004, page A12 If you really want, I can splurge the $4.95 necessary to buy the article out of http://www.fpinfomart.ca.
 * http://www.saudiembassy.net/2003News/Statements/TransDetail.asp?cIndex=190
 * http://www.adl.org/anti_semitism/arab/Arab_Anti-Semitism.pdf Although here Sudais is just saying "God hurled his curses and indignation on them and made them monkeys
 * http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NGVjNDY0NGE4YTllZTljODI2ZDE5ODg5NmRhZjkzMjk=

-- Avi (talk) 08:00, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Why is the quote that he 'vilified other faiths' and called for 'annihilation of the Jews' mentioned in the introduction? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Muhammaduddeen (talk • contribs) 22:25, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Because it is one of the key elements that makes this man notable with respect to the English Wikipedia. -- Avi (talk) 02:34, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

What???
No fact about the part where he led many prayers in Mecca? Only the highest scholars led prayers in Mecca. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cooolway (talk • contribs) 05:50, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Erase Duplicate
It appears that section entitled "Controversial statements on non-Muslims" has been erroneously duplicated in this article, i.e. it's posted twice. I would be more than willing to delete it but it appears that new users are not allowed that privilege for this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.198.23.93 (talk) 20:37, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Unsourced and unsupported qualifications about Sudais's statements on Jews
Unless there exist sources that support claim that the quotes the article brings from Sudais in and of themselves were restricted to Zionists and not Jews, the qualifications being added are clear violations of Wikipedia principles of verifiable information, neutral point of view, etc. Further violations may need to be met with measures taken to protect the project. Thank you. -- Avi (talk) 18:05, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Adding good sources is always helpful. Most of the added sources were reliable, and I have "templatized" them. There are a few, however, which were not. For one I found a substitute; the others I have tagged. Hopefully, we can either show that the sites are subject to editorial oversight and are reliable, or find substitutes. -- Avi (talk) 17:51, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Did Al-Sudais call the Jews "monkeys and pigs"?
The article claims 'Al-Sudais called the Jews "monkeys and pigs"' and the following text is given with ref #20: "...He turned some of them to monkeys and pigs and worshippers of creatures..."

Clearly he is not calling all the Jews "monkeys and pigs", rather he is claiming that Allah turned some of the Jews, in the past, into monkeys and pigs. And in fact this is mentioned in the Quran. So, as the source mentions, the claim is made by the Quran and only repeated by Al-Sudais. Please see following source for the references in the Quran:

A classical explanation of Quran: http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=366&Itemid=36 Christian viewpoint on this topic: http://answering-islam.org/Authors/Arlandson/jew_apes.htm -- Chintook (talk) 02:11, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I have also noticed this from reading the quote, I guess this is simply another instance of misunderstanding the context and the words not coming across as the originally intended meaning from translation? This ayah is clearly very specific and I don't believe it is speaking generally about all of the Ahlul Kitab, only the specific group mentioned wa Allahu alim.  Sakimonk   talk  03:11, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 14:07, 1 May 2016 (UTC)