Talk:Abdul-Rahman Al-Sudais/Archive 2

Attribution required
Attribution is needed for several statements stated.

The article currently states that Al-Sudais "publicly pray[ed] to God to ‘terminate’ the Jews". This is based on a passing remark by Susan Jacobson in the Orlando Sentinel. But Jacobson doesn't quote her sources, unlike the ADL and BBC. When did Sudais make this remark and in what context?

The Coordination Forum for Countering Antisemitism is an Israeli state run organization and so its opinions can't simply be treated as fact.

The article quotes a sermon of Al-Sudais saying "Al-Sudais called the Jews "monkeys and pigs", among other invective." Who exactly has quoted these remarks as controversial? As far as I see only ADL has, so I'm merging this sentence with the next one.

Bless sins (talk) 05:28, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Two other sources are also cited as saying that Sudais prayed to "terminate" the Jews, but both links are dead.Bless sins (talk) 06:03, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

The Orlando Sentinel is no less a reliable source than Al-Jazeera. It is a reputable news outlet that has editorial oversight. I have found an archived version of the two dead links you brought and have updated the article accordingly. -- Avi (talk) 16:27, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

The "terminate the Jews" statement is sourced to the IBB.GOV and SaudiEmbassy links as well. Although it is not visually that nice to have more than three citations in a row, to ensure that others do not make the similar mistake of thinking it not widely supported, I will make that change in the article. -- Avi (talk) 16:30, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Article cleanup
After waiting for about a complete year for more appropriate sources than self-published, self-identifying as advertisement, websites, I've removed the material which did not pass our requirements and then streamlined the remaining text so as not to have a one-sentence section. -- Avi (talk) 18:25, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Hanbali vs. Salafi
I am no expert in differentiating the two, especially as it seems that one is really an offshoot of the other. However, this edit warring needs to stop. The reason why Hanbali may be better sourced is that we know his doctoral thesis was on the topic of Hanbali jurisprudence. See the Dubai International Holy Quran page where it says "He obtained the doctorate degree with an excellence grade from the Shariah College at Umm Alqura University, with a recommendation to print his thesis titled “The Clear in the Jurisprudence Principles by Abi Alwafa Bin Oqail Alhanbali: study and inspection” and “He has a number of scholarship researches and projects relating to his specialty in the principles of jurisprudence, including, but without limitation.…Taking care in manifesting Al Hanabila jurisprudence, and serving the investigation of certain books of heritage.” -- Avi (talk) 15:27, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I support and second the above point. That is more correct. Wasif (talk) 14:49, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

I also agree. Salafism is not even a jurisprudence or creed. It's a movement Ishan87 (talk) 22:24, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

quote of sermon
I have added a quote from the April 19, 2002, in his sermon Al-Aqsa Is Crying Out For Help!. Although the quote is quite incendiary it seems pretty well documented and so I hope passes the BLP test. (It is from www.alharamainsermons.org, not from MEMRI.) --BoogaLouie (talk) 15:07, 19 October 2014 (UTC)
 * The quote was always in the article, but in the references and not the main text. These sermons, speeches, and sayings are a core part of why Sudais is notable vis-a-vis the English Wikipedia project, so I think a representative sample is appropriate. Too many examples in the text would be overkill, though. -- Avi (talk) 19:42, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

≤== Spate of IP vandalism/deletions ==

There has been an uptick in the amount if IP vandalism/deletions recently. This article may need semi-protection or pending changes level 1 if it continues. -- Avi (talk) 20:50, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Pending changes 1 applied. Hopefully, there will be no need to upgrade to semi-p or further. -- Avi (talk) 14:16, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
 * It appears that once the protection was lifted, edits changing sourced information without bringing proper sourcing themselves have re-proliferated. If this continues, measures intended to protect the project will need to be taken yet again. -- Avi (talk) 16:03, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, there seems to be someone intent on changing his religious denomination from Salafi to Deobandi, despite the source clearly supporting the former. Mr Potto (talk) 16:25, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Semi-protected for a week. Will extend if necessary. -- Avi (talk) 06:04, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Semi-protected again. -- Avi (talk) 01:36, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Recent deletion by Sakimonk
, your recent edits here are not appropriate per Wikipedia's guidelines. Firstly, you deleted properly sourced and cited material directly relevant to Sudais's notability—especially as respects the English-speaking world. Secondly, your changing of his denomination was based on your interpretation of where he wentto school; that is a violation of WP:OR. What is there now is supported by a reliable third party source which states "Sheikh Abdul Rahman Al-Sudais, head of the Presidency of the Two Holy Mosques, said Salafism reflected the true Islamic way of life suited to any time or place." Lastly, the addition of the telegraph piece about Amnesty's claims is completely off-topic—the article doesn't even mention Sudais, and is inappropriate. Please review Wikipedia's policies and guidelines about editing, especially biographical pieces. Thank you. -- Avi (talk) 19:21, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Your anti-semetic views are not constructive in furthering the quality of this article. All you seem to do is cite articles which slander Mr Al Sudais. These disingenuous edits are quite hurtful and I believe are considerably racist.  Sakimonk   talk  19:23, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Please note that the next revert will get you blocked according to three revert rule. It does not help that you do not reply at you talk page, and the only reply here is a personal attack and does not address the point.--Ymblanter (talk) 20:02, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
 * This thread on ANI may be of interest. -- Avi (talk) 20:04, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
 * This is where I have come from.--Ymblanter (talk) 20:05, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

Salafi, Hanabali, etc.
Hello,. Unfortunately, even if the relationship you state is true, it can be contested and removed from the article as original research or synthesis, UNLESS you can show how the relationship you state falls into the category of common knowledge like "grass is green, the sky is blue"). As this has been a bone of contention on this article for months (if not years), reliable and verifiable sources are needed for every claim. We have one clear one for the Salafi claim; we don't have one yet for the others. If you can find sources (and they do not have to be English, although it is preferable) that clearly state that Sudais is Hanabali or Deobandi or any other school or sect, then that would be great. But until then, we must adhere to the policies and stick to sourced claims. Thanks. -- Avi (talk) 05:43, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
 * It's not a big issue, he certainly isn't Deobandi because he didn't study in Deoband. He studied in Umm al Qura university which is a Saudi university based in makkah. The most widespread madhhab of Saudi arabia is the hanbali madhhab. Hence he is hanbali. Also, salafism isn't a denomination in Islam, I don't think that is the right term to use at all, according to wikipedia Salafism is listed as a movement, if you look at other scholars who are very similar to Sudais they are listed as sunni hanbali and then "movement influenced by" being salafi.  Sakimonk   talk  17:51, 6 August 2015 (UTC)


 * I used a more appropriate infobox.  Sakimonk   talk  17:57, 6 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Firsty, thank you for updating the Infobox. I fully admit I am no expert on denominations and various different sects or threads in Islam. However, in the interests of verifiability, I have asked for a citation to be brought to support Hanabali jurisprudence. Hopefully, you can find one easily enough (and it does not have to be English, although that is preferable). If not, we're probably better off leaving it out until we can find one. Thanks. -- Avi (talk) 18:06, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Wahhabi
The source brought does refer to Sudais as Wahhabi, but according to the encyclopedia, Wahhbaism isn't a jurisprudence, it is a movement very closely related to Salafism. The four recognized Sunni jurisprudences are Hanbali, Hanafi, Maliki, and Shafi'i. How should we best describe Sudais, using verifiable sources, of course. -- Avi (talk) 18:41, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Well actually its a jurisprudence. Although the followers would prefer to call it "pure form of islam" etc. Wahhabi term was developed because of the rejection of the four schools. Salafism is the full rejection whereas Wahhabism is a partial rejection. The Saudi Wahhabis partially follow Hanbali. This article will make it clear Misdemenor (talk) 18:45, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

I think, after reviewing the sources, that the following description may be the most accurate:


 * Denomination Sunni {Not sure this needs a source, but preferable if we can get one]
 * Jurisprudence 	Hanbali{9th Dubai International}
 * Creed          Athari{citation needed}
 * Movement 	Salafi{Deviant ideology} (Wahhabi{Deviant ideology})

The "Deviant ideology has no place in Islam: Al-Sudais" supports both Salafism and Wahhbism upon reading the entire article, specifically: Al-Sudais said the Kingdom has been holding fast to the Salafi creed and the teachings of Sheikh Muhammad bin Abdul Wahhab who called on people to follow the path of Tawhid and faith. His teachings sought to reform people from the aberrations in the creed and he fought against deviant views and wrong practices. “His call was not for a new religion or a fifth school of thought but for the true understanding of the teachings of the Prophet (peace be upon him), his truthful companions and followers of the succeeding generations to strictly follow the Holy Qur’an and the Sunnah of the Prophet. His teachings were poles apart from the takfiri ideology and the khawarij practices, even though they attracted baseless accusations, false charges and attempts to tarnish him,” Al-Sudais said, adding the teachings of Sheikh Muhammad bin Abdul Wahhab were labeled by his enemies as Wahhabism. “The land of the Two Holy Mosques follows the moderate middle path of the Salafi way in the light of the Holy Qur’an and the Sunnah and the way of the righteous early followers of the Prophet.

Hanabilsm as his jurisprudence is supported by the the 9th Dubai quote, in specific " He obtained the doctorate degree with an excellence grade from the Shariah College at Umm Alqura University, with a recommendation to print his thesis titled Ã¢â‚¬Å“The Clear in the Jurisprudence Principles by Abi Alwafa Bin Oqail Alhanbali: study and inspection" and "(6) Taking care in manifesting Al Hanabila jurisprudence, and serving the investigation of certain books of heritage."

Does the above make sense to those of you with a better understanding of these terms than I have? -- Avi (talk) 18:54, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Yeah as I said earlier he is Hanbali because the institution he studied at relies on Hanbali sources, you can see his thesis is on the Hanbali scholar etc.

Saying his jurisprudence is 'wahhabi' is actually cringe-inducing. It is something a very uneducated person would say as wahhabism is a jurisprudence, it was a revivalist movement to reform Arabia in the 18th century. (note: Muhammed in Abdul Wahhab was Hanbali and in his letters he clearly states that they endorse all the madhhabs people today however like to make up things like they reject madhhabs which is untrue). Sakimonk  talk  13:31, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Isn't a jurisprudence I meant*  Sakimonk   talk  13:32, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
 * @Sakimonk Wahhabis are not muslims. They are kufar according to Al Azhar University Misdemenor (talk) 18:53, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I think you have it right, apart from possibly "creed". I'm actually not sure what "creed" is intended to mean in the infobox template. To me, it means just the overall religious affiliation, so I would say "Islam", which strangely wouldn't otherwise be referred to. I have doubts that a movement witin Islam such as Athari translates as a "creed" in English. The jurisprudence can only be Hanbali (per Fiqh - none of the other descriptions used are ever referred to as one of the sunni Madhhabs. I haven't checked for anything specifically on this cleric but all the Saudi Wahhabis are classed as "Hanbali".) Wahhabism and Salafism are well referenced as "movements" within Sunni Islam. There is the perennial problem that one may be a sub-set of the other and one may be derogatory, but the best NPOV solution is to reference them both. DeCausa (talk) 19:34, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I've tweaked the infobox, removing the creed, putting Salafi/Wahhabi as movements, and Hanbali as jurisprudence, each with a source. -- Avi (talk) 16:49, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, thanks. It's kinda strange that the word "Islam" doesn't appear anywhere in the Infobox! DeCausa (talk) 17:47, 10 August 2015 (UTC)


 * I put Islam under creed because Islam under the "religion" tag doesn't seem to come up. Also Athari is actually the correct term to be used under creed, the defining point of being a Salafi is essentially to follow the athari creed as opposed to hellenistic philosophy which has influenced ash'ari and maturidi sunni schools.  Sakimonk   talk  22:13, 10 August 2015 (UTC)


 * DeCausa, athari isn't a movement it is a school of theology akin to the Ash'ari school. If you read about athari you would see that its strongly tied in with the hanbali school of law as it is the school of theology attributed to and founded by Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal, which the hanbali school is associated with.  Sakimonk   talk  22:16, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Maybe Religion: Islam should be be hardcoded in the template, as it is specifically for Muslim Scholars, no? -- Avi (talk) 22:17, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

That's a good idea. Sakimonk  talk  22:21, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I asked at Template talk:Infobox Muslim scholar. -- Avi (talk) 22:24, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
 * It translates to creed in several sources such as this Inseting Islam as creed doesnt make sense so i removed it. Misdemenor (talk) 20:04, 11 August 2015 (UTC)


 * The article source for "salafi" actually says "hold fast to the salafi creed" by this he means the athari shcool of theology which is the creed followed by salafis (also most hanbalis). You can read more about this on the athari page but it is well known. Also look at the source from Misdemenor, it discusses how movements such as the Muslim brotherhood (which is basically an Egyptian-originating salafi orientated movement) follow the athari creed for example.  Sakimonk   talk  01:32, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Creed as Athari
It is WP:SYNTH to say Salafi/Wahhabi implied Athari, so Sudais must be Athari, unless, possibly, EVERY Salafi and EVERY Wahhabi MUST be Athari. Even then, we should find a reliable source to us to verify the fact, and hold back from improper synthesis (even if logically valid). -- Avi (talk) 01:58, 12 August 2015 (UTC)


 * He says hold fast to the salafi creed - the salafi creed is primarily based on the works by Ibn Taymiyyah who codified the hanbali theological viewpoints - i.e. the athari school. The confusion is because atharis are not usually self identifying as such as it is more of a default position in Islamic theology as it is belief in the direct meaning of the text as opposed to Hellenistic philosophical discourse as with the asharite school. IMHPO I believe this really is common knowledge to people familiar with the topic but it is hard to find sources in english backing this.  Sakimonk   talk  02:04, 12 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Here is an example- this book is published by a well known salafi publishing house - the work is non-descript in terms of theological school. It is simply called "islamic beliefs". It is a work in salafi creed. The authour has given himself the title "al-athari". Essentially salafi creed / atharism relies on the athar (narrations) of the salaf (first three generations of Islam).  Sakimonk   talk  02:08, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

That may all be true, but still an example of No original research. As a safety precaution to prevent original research violations, we don't even allow two existing sources to be use to derive a true, but unsourced entry. We really need a source saying that Sudais's creed is Athari; otherwise, we are better off leaving it out. -- Avi (talk) 02:15, 12 August 2015 (UTC)


 * I didn't know that, thank you for informing me about that  Sakimonk   talk  02:33, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Antisemitic vs Antijewish
The last editor claimed he is semitic. Rather change the term to Anti Jewish? Anti semitism is a term coined in Germany. Misdemenor (talk) 15:31, 26 September 2015 (UTC)
 * No, Anti-semitic is standard English and there is no ambiguity as to what it means. DeCausa (talk) 17:23, 26 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Mr. Merriam-Webster defines Anti-Semitism as "hostility toward or discrimination against Jews as a religious, ethnic, or racial group." . I see no reason to apply a different definition for this article.(Hyperionsteel (talk) 18:08, 26 September 2015 (UTC))
 * But whats a Semite? according to webster . Encylopedia Britanica has even said the term is inaccurate "The term is especially inappropriate as a label for the anti-Jewish prejudices, statements, or actions of Arabs or other Semites.". Misdemenor (talk) 18:25, 26 September 2015 (UTC)
 * "Anti-Semitism" doesn't mean hatred against Semites (as a literal interpretation of this word would suggest). Rather, it refers to hatred of Jews. This issue has come up before in Wikipedia - I suggest you read Antisemitism for a full explanation. The must succinct explanation is this: "Despite the use of the prefix anti-, the term "anti-Semitic" is not a direct opposite of "Semitic" which linguistically makes the term a misnomer. Within common, day to day usage, however, the terms "anti-Semitism" and "antisemitism" have accepted and specific use to describe prejudice against Jews alone and in general. This is despite the fact that there are other speakers of Semitic languages (e.g. Arabs, Ethiopians, or Assyrians) and that not all Jews speak a Semitic language." The article notes that: "The term "antisemitic" has been used on occasion with meanings inclusive of bigotry against other Semitic-language peoples such as Arabs, with the validity of such use being challenged." However, throughout Wikipedia, the definition of Anti-Semitism used the commonly accepted one (i.e. that it refers to prejudice against Jews alone and in general).(Hyperionsteel (talk) 18:41, 26 September 2015 (UTC))


 * Only someone with a poor command of English could imagine that "anti-semitism" has any meaning other than hostility to Jews. There is no ambiguity here. DeCausa (talk) 19:23, 26 September 2015 (UTC)


 * User:AllahIsMyGod's argument is just semantics (i.e. that Arabs can't be anti-Semitic because they are also Semites). Al-Sudais describes Jews as "the worst of mankind" and "scum of the earth" and prays for them to be "terminate[d]" - he is clearly promoting hatred against Jews; and Jews are Semites. Al-Sudais' own ethnicity is irrelevant - if you promote hatred against Jews, you are anti-Semitic, even if you yourself are a Semite. As for redefining the term anti-Semitism to include hatred towards other Semitic peoples, that's an issue that goes well beyond the purpose of this talk page.(Hyperionsteel (talk) 23:35, 26 September 2015 (UTC))

Antisemitism is unquestionably the proper term as discussed above and at Antisemitism. Further disruptive edits may be met with measures taken to protect the project's integrity. Thank you. -- Avi (talk) 02:17, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

Does this page need semi-protection again?
If this drive-by vandalism keeps up, I may have to re-impose it. -- Avi (talk) 13:17, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Semiprotected. -- Avi (talk) 17:16, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

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 * Noted. -- Avi (talk) 15:17, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

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 * Noted. -- Avi (talk) 15:37, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

Prayers for the destruction of the Jews section
The quote of the sermon as translated by alharamainsermons.org for years. User:Jibran1998 recently removed the entire section claiming the link was dead, despite it being archived by the Wayback machine. After I restored it, he did so again, now claiming it is a blog. That is a stronger, but unsubstantiated claim. I restored the section with a link to the existence of the 2002 sermon and some snippets from it from a news site, but we should discuss if keeping the entire text is in accord with our policies. Sudais clearly said it, but we have to hold to policy, even if it means that we cannot be as accurate as we can. Please discuss, and please do not remove the long-standing text until consensus is reached. Thank you. -- Avi (talk) 18:55, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
 * This is now moot as I have found an indisputably verifiable source for the text in a published anthology. Removal of the section is no longer needed nor would be allowed under policy. -- Avi (talk) 19:15, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

Hanabali vs. Salafi II
The claims have been yo-yoing back and forth without proper support. At this point, no definitive statement should be made without acceptable support. -- Avi (talk) 17:27, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

Correct Name
Can someone please bring verifiable sources for the proper ENGLISH usage of his name (Abdul vs. Abdur, al vs. as). Please remember that as this is the English Wikipedia, the name of the article is more appropriately the common English usage than the technical transliteration from Arabic. That belongs in the first sentence. -- Avi (talk) 06:33, 1 November 2019 (UTC)
 * According to Google's language tools transliteration, his own website uses "Abdul". See https://www.gph.gov.sa/ar-sa/Pages/news-details.aspx?nID=59322 as an example. If there are no objections, I may move the page back. -- Avi (talk) 06:20, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Moved, as discussed and without objection. -- Avi (talk) 22:03, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

Anonymous edit warring again
It looks like semi-protection is going to be needed again, soon. This is a WP:BLP, and should not be changed without good sources. -- Avi (talk) 06:13, 18 December 2019 (UTC)