Talk:Abdul Rauf Aliza

disputed picture
Replaced transcluded image with inline image - npov tag as per dispute on Template talk:Combatant Status Review Tribunal trailer image and caption. Geo Swan 04:01, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

There are reasons to suspect there are multiple individuals known as Mullah Abdul Rauf
The DoD estimated the Guantanamo captive was born in 1981.

Meanwhile the United Nations listed Mullah Abdul Rauf as a senior Taliban official way back in 1999. The youthful Guantanamo captive, who claimed he was a simple conscript, would have been just 18 at that time. I don't think it is credible to believe these two individuals are the same person.

CNN quoted a Taliban official named Mullah Abdul Rauf in 2003 -- at large when Abdul Rauf Aliza was in custody. Geo Swan (talk) 13:47, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Identity of Mullah Abdul Rauf
Here is an excerpt from a Gitmo document about this figure: ""The name Mullah Abdul Rauf, detainee's reference name, was located on a list of factions and leaders within the Taliban as a corps commander in Herat, AF. (Analyst note: Several high-level Taliban JTF GTMO detainees also identified detainee as a Taliban troop commander…)

…

JTF GTMO has determined that the detainee is of medium intelligence value…Due to recent findings that detainee may have had a more important role within the Taliban [sic] that previously thought, detainee's intelligence value has been updated from low to medium due to his possible knowledge of:

(1)	Taliban Leadership

(2)	Taliban Command and Control""

- Jay W. Hood

It seems to support the assertion that he was a prominent Taliban commander by the time he was captured at around age 26 in 2007. This figure is also known as Mullah Abdul Rauf Khadim and named as such in this NYT article mentioning his death. Morrowulf (talk) 18:34, 12 February 2015 (UTC)


 * Thanks Morrowulf.


 * The Guantanamo record indicates he arrived in Guantanamo on either February 9th, 2002, or February 10th 2002. There are flight manifests that list when the captives were flown over.  Every captive was supposed to receive a medical examination upon arrival.  And, in 2007 the DoD published a height and weight records for about 95 percent of the men.  His height and weight were recorded on February 10th.  Of course he crossed about ten time zones, which could explain the one day date confusion.


 * Abdul Rauf Aliza didn't arrive at Guantanamo in 2007. He was repatriated from Guantamao to Afghanistan on 2007-12-12.
 * 2010 marks the first press reports that the former Guantanamo captive was the Taliban leader named Mullah Abdul Rauf. So he may have spent 2008 and 2009 in the American wing of Pul-i-Charkhi.


 * As I have written elsewhere, the earliest reporting by the UN estimated that Mullah Abdul Rauf was born between 1956 and 1960. The UN would later add a second possible date of birth, 1970.


 * I think it is quite possible that Mullah Abdul Rauf Khadim is yet another individual, altogether. I have also come across references to an Mullah Abdul Rauf Zakir.  Geo Swan (talk) 20:17, 12 February 2015 (UTC)


 * You're right about the dates, thank you, I mixed those up! Here is a Washington Post piece discussing him:
 * "His name is Mullah Abdul Rauf...Rauf is also known as Abdul Rauf Aliza and Maulvi Abdul Rauf Khadim." I think this clearly identifies Mullah Abdul Rauf, Abdul Rauf Aliza, Maulvi (I believe this title is similar to Mullah) Abdul Rauf Khadim all as one figure. This figure was released from Gitmo in 2007 and killed in a drone strike in February 2015. I think Abdul_Rauf_(Taliban_governor) should be deleted. The ISIS recruiter page and the Taliban commander page also appear to be duplicates and should be deleted. Morrowulf (talk) 20:50, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I know that I originally tagged three of these articles for speedy deletion, but on thinking about it I am inclining more toward redirect them to Abdul Rauf Aliza - as long as we are pretty sure the redirects describe him accurately. Am I reading the discussion correctly, that the ISIS recruiter and the militant commander are the person described at Abdul Rauf Aliza? How about the governor, is that a different person? I'll put these ideas below. --MelanieN (talk) 21:50, 12 February 2015 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure if the governor is a distinct person. There seemed to be some discussion on his talk page suggesting that he is a separate individual. I haven't seen any reporting related to an older Taliban official with the same name, and the current article on the Taliban governor seems to conflate this Khadim/Aliza with the Taliban governor figure, who may or may not exist. Unless his article is rewritten significantly I think it should be deleted.


 * The latter two entries on Mullah Abdul Rauf definitely refer to the same individual. I'm not sure if it's worth keeping separate pages with redirects for Taliban commander and ISIS recruiter; perhaps just a (Militant) tag on this page would obviate the need for any redirects to the page. Morrowulf (talk) 00:55, 13 February 2015 (UTC)


 * I was researching a little more in response to User:Geo Swan's comment. I found references to another Gitmo Taliban detainee variously referred to as Mullah Abdullah Zakir, Abdul Qayyum "Zakir," and Abdullah Gulam Rasoul. He has a birth date in the early 1970s. Perhaps he is the other individual? Morrowulf (talk) 11:46, 13 February 2015 (UTC)


 * Two separate individuals. Post-release one is described as the other's deputy.  Geo Swan (talk) 22:06, 15 February 2015 (UTC)


 * -- As to whether the original "Mullah Abdul Rauf" is a separate individual -- The United Nations Security Council agrees on and proclaims resolutions the other members of the United Nations are supposed to comply with. Some of these resolutions mark the beginning of wars, like the Korean War and the 1991 Gulf War, which had UN endorsement.  Among the other resolutions are resolutions that inform the UN's member nations they should freeze the overseas financial transactions of individuals who are strongly suspected of war crimes and other atrocities.  Starting in the late 1990s -- that is, several year prior to al Qaeda's attacks on 9-11, the Security Council started to proclaim lists of senior Taliban officials whose assets should be frozen.  The first resolution was UN Security Resolution 1267, from 1999.  Some further resolutions have been updates.  They have ALL included "Mullah Abdul Rauf", a Taliban Governor and "Corps Commander".


 * If the ongoing UN documents don't convince you that the Taliban had a senior official known as Mullah Abdul Rauf, who has served as a Taliban Governor, could you please help me understand what what if would take to convince you?


 * Mullah Abdul Rauf is routinely described as a "close associate" of Mullah Omar, the Taliban's illiterate one-eyed leader.


 * As I have written elsewhere, it is hard to believe Mullah Abdul Rauf and Abdul Rauf Aliza could be the same individual, as the original individual known as Mullah Abdul Rauf is decades older than the youth who claimed to be a conscript. Further, Mullah Omar has disappeared, he is either: (1) dead; (2) under some form of ISI house arrest; (3) secreted away in a secret and isolated hide-away, like the late Osama bin Laden.  None of these options would allow for him to have forged any new close associates.


 * I wrote, above, about CNN publishing comments Mullah Abdul Rauf made in 2003, when he was at large, and Abdul Rauf Aliza was in Guantanamo. I've looked for them.  I can't find them.  I am going to keep looking.


 * There is at least one other Taliban leader who might be known as Mullah Abdul Rauf, who can't be Abdul Rauf Aliza. Another individual emerged in 2008, joining the Haqqani network, a branch of the Taliban.  He was made the Haqqani Network's director of Suicide Operations.  He can't be Abdul Rauf Aliza, because he wasn't released in 2007, he was transferred to Afghan custody, where he remained until 2010.  Geo Swan (talk) 22:06, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

Sorting it out
Let's summarize our research and/or discussion and/or opinions into a clearer format. I will list below the four articles that we currently have. All four have been identified in the press as the person killed on Feb. 9, 2015. Under each one, please specify if you think they are "same as" any of the other articles, so at least we can eliminate some of the contenders. Or list any biographical data that you think distinguish them. Don't list all your research; do that in the section above. Thanks. --MelanieN (talk) 18:55, 12 February 2015 (UTC)


 * Abdul Rauf Aliza


 * Abdul Rauf (Taliban governor) - delete?


 * Abdul Rauf (ISIS recruiter) - redirect to Abdul Rauf Aliza? - DONE


 * Abdul Rauf (militant commander) - redirect to Abdul Rauf Aliza? - DONE


 * I made a comment about these pages above. The latter two should be redirected to this page or deleted; I don't think so many pages with different labels are necessary. The Taliban governor page needs to be rewritten to reflect a distinct individual or deleted. Morrowulf (talk) 20:50, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes. The summary above reflects your input. It looks good to me, but I am waiting to hear from User:Geo Swan before taking any action. --MelanieN (talk) 17:33, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I will go ahead and redirect the SIS recruiter and Militant commander titles since we seem pretty sure they refer to the same person. And I will delete references in the Abdul Rauf Aliza article saying he was governor. Still waiting to see whether the governor article should be deleted, or if we can come up with enough verified biographical information to sustain a separate article about him. --MelanieN (talk) 00:25, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

As a general rule, the best course when there is doubt about whether a name represents more than one individual the best course is to keep it separate, and give whatever evidence there is is the article. I haven;t looked at the details here.  DGG ( talk ) 21:26, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Further identity confusion
Former captive Shawali Khan has said that photos published after the reported death of Mullah Abdul Rauf were actually images of him. The NYTimes reported that the image was published by Afghan intelligence officials, who were actually distributing an image of a completely different former Guantanamo captive Shawali Khan, who was only released two months ago. Shawali Khan was very concerned the identity confusion puts his life at risk. The BBC also published the bogus image. Geo Swan (talk) 04:30, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

Errors in the "repatriation" section
The repatriation section falsely asserts ALA was sent to Guantanamo in 2007. Only half a dozen individuals were sent to Guantanamo in 2007 and 2008, all but one of them were captured by the CIA outside of Afghanistan. ALA was held in Guantanamo from 2002 until 2007-12-20, and for a further three years in the American wing of the infamous Pul-e-Charkhi prison in nominal Afghan custody. I fixed this. Geo Swan (talk) 19:35, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

Rewriting to trim all claims that Abdul Rauf Aliza was the Taliban leader known as Mullah Abdul Rauf who was killed on 2015-02-09
Yes, it is widely reported that Abdul Rauf Aliza was a Taliban leader known as Mullah Abdul Rauf. It is not a credible assertion. Listing the widely reported non-credible assertions: It is possible that ARA is one of the minority of Afghans who did join or rejoin the Taliban, after release. But, given that he was held until 2010, any leadership role he was rewarded with couldn't have taken place until 2010.
 * 1) Abdul Rauf Aliza was already a senior Taliban leader when he was captured -- not credible due to Abdul Rauf Aliza's youth; not credible because the senior leader who was his namesake remained at large.
 * 2) Abdul Rauf Aliza was a close associate of Taliban leader Mohammed Omar -- not credible because Mohammed Omar has been a recluse for years, just like Osama bin Laden.  He was too young to be an associate of Mohammed Omar, prior to his capture.  Mohammed Omar hasn't been seen, for years, and some commentators speculate he is dead.  Just not credible.

In this edit I removed the image of his older namesake; I removed "deceased" as his status in the infobox; I removed the military infobox that reported on his namesake's career;

In this edit I removed the unsubstantiated assertion that he was part of an elite force. I left the coverage of Cathy Gannon's 2010 reporting, because it is verifiable.

In this edit I tried to tackle incorrect coverage that stated ARA was sent to Guantanmo twice. Use of the wikileaked DAB has nothing to do with his repatriation.

In this edit I removed some particularly troubling material. The reference supplied was to a 2001 article from the student newspaper of the University of Buffalo. It spoke -- briefly -- about Maulvi Abdul Rauf: "On Sunday, a delegation of 10 men from the forces massed at Lagharay, Pakistan, six miles from the Afghan border in the Bajaur tribal area, traveled into neighboring Konar province to meet with Taliban Gov. Maulvi Abdul Rauf." It did not back up the claims that he set himself up as a leader, in Helmand, in 2007. In fact Rauf was still in custody until 2010.

The final two paragraphs I trimmed are reporting on the namesake. Geo Swan (talk) 22:16, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Name in Arabic
I removed the translation of his name in Arabic as there is no reason stated as to why this Afghan's name should be translated into Arabic for an article on him in English Wikipedia. MicroPaLeo (talk) 23:13, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

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