Talk:Abhartach

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I have added Internal Links to this article and removed a website because of a Server not found notice. Kathleen.wright5 01:26, 19 September 2007

Derry or Londonderry
I feel that in order to avoid political bias that these two terms ‘Londonderry’ and ‘Derry’ should be avoided where possible, perhaps replaced with other descriptions of location such as Ulster Michael Murfie (talk) 14:30, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
 * It's not political bias, it's purely the name of the county per WP:DERRY. We don't go around avoiding its use because some people don't like it. And why would you use Ulster instead of Northern Ireland? Ulster is pretty much unused and a non-entity. Unfortunately in a desire to not use a term that you may dislike, you made the location extremely general and non-specific. It has however highlighted that it doesn't mention what country Slaghtaverty is in, and people could be lead to mistakenly believe it's in the country Ireland, so Northern Ireland really needs to be added which makes Ulster make less sense. Canterbury Tail talk 14:45, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

Firstly I do agree with Michael Murfie that there should be a different name or agreement for the Derry situation as it is a hot button topic and bound to become more frequent in the future. Any such change though would need to be site wide so I don't think proposing it for solely this article is appropriate.

In regards to Canterbury Tail your arguments for the other side don't make much sense. Ulster is not at all a "non-entity." It's a well regonise part of the island if Ireland, along with the other four provinces.

Naming county Derry as part of Northern Ireland also makes little sense, there is only one such county so there can be no confusion. Unlike say the Lough Derg's there is only one County Derry on the island, (if not the world) so there is no need to clarify the country.

And even if Ulster was kept confusion would be highly unlikely. The vast majority of Ulster is located in Northern Ireland. It would be more likely that an Ulster region owned by the republic would be confused with the North rather than the other way around.

Ultimately I see no need to change anything of the article as it stands. Dubarr18 (talk) 02:32, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
 * We do have an agreement on the County Londonderry situation, it can be found at WP:DERRY. If you disagree with the consensus you are free to bring it up on the talk page. This was reached after much discussion and debate and is now a Wikipedia Manual of Style. As for the Northern Ireland situation, someone reading this article may think County Londonderry is in Ireland, not Northern Ireland. Its Northern Ireland location is never mentioned in the article. When a geographic area is used we should always inform the reader as to what country it is in, unless such a country location is obvious from the article as is. I.e. if the article mentioned that this is all in Northern Ireland previously, we wouldn't need to mention it. As it is the country is never established in the article. Canterbury Tail talk 11:10, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

I am aware of the current convention for the name of Derry. To reiterate; I think there should be a different name or agreement for the situation.

Also again where are you proposing that someone will confuse county Derry with? There is only one county Derry, there is no counterpart to cause confusion and thus no need to clarify its location. Simply stating County Derry is sufficient because there is only one County Derry. Dubarr18 (talk) 17:17, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
 * You’re operating on the assumption that people already know what country the county is in. It’s always good practice, whenever there is any possibility of doubt, to mention what country a location is in on first usage. Not just this article, but any kind of writing in general. We shouldn’t assume such knowledge and should not write on the assumption that every reader is familiar with the geography and country structure here. Heck we mention in articles that New York is in the United States, something most English language speakers would know. I’d argue that most British people don’t even know where County Londonderry is. Here there is that doubt as without mention the article, as read, would lead them to assume it’s in Ireland (state). What problem is there created by informing the reader as to the location of this location?
 * The alternative is to state at the top that this legend is from Northern Ireland, not Irish, to establish the locational context, but I don’t think that’s a suitable thing to do as the legend very clearly predates Northern Irelands existence. It could be wordsmithed in somehow, but that would seem clumsy and forced. Canterbury Tail talk 18:18, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

The tale is an Irish wide one, stating it's a Northern Irish folktale would just be inaccurate at best and incorrect at worst.

What is this doubt you keep mentioning? Where exactly are you proposing people will get confused as to which country County Derry is in?

On the off chance of there being any confusion it's simply a matter of briefly googling or checking the county Derry article. The conjecture that even British people don't know this seems ridiculous, do you have any source to back up that claim?

It seems that your simply making a big deal out of what is simply a non issue. It's pretty much standard throughout the site to not mention the country of origin unless there is a chance of confusion. There is no place or region where someone could get confused so there is no need for the clarification. Dubarr18 (talk) 17:31, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Been here over 15 years and it’s pretty standard on Wikipedia to mention the country of a location unless it’s obvious, just like it is with any encyclopaedic or article writing anywhere. Here it’s not obvious. Do you honestly think that someone from the US, Germany or one of any other country can read this and know the location of County Londonderry? I notice that you were the one to originally delete Northern Ireland from the article after it had been there for a couple of years. I have to ask, why is there such an objection to mentioning a context clarifying location? And considering until recently a silly amount of mainland British people knew nothing about Northern Ireland, expecting them to know it’s counties is a real stretch. Anyway outside of people who live in Northern Ireland no I wouldn’t expect people to know about the counties anymore than I’d expect a British person to know what prefectures are in Japan, provinces in China or what state or country Kitsap County is in. Remember we’re building a global encyclopedia aimed at everyone who can speak English, not an encyclopedia for Irish people.
 * As for stating that people don’t need clarification and that if they don’t know they can Google it, it’s relevant information we should be providing and not just throwing locations without saying where they are. Would you advocate that we should remove from the Cork article what country it is in? How about not saying Paris is in France? Canterbury Tail talk 17:45, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

I at first didn't understand what you meant but double checked and apparently I had removed it again for the same reason as in the present; it isn't useful information. As well as that unlike you say here it wasn't on the article for "years". Looking back further it was only added in around 2018, again by you. It seems in the three to four year period you are the only individual to be unusually insist on this issue.

As for your other issues I don't exactly see what point your trying to make. If I see a location I don't know of and need to know what country it is in for whatever reason I'd simply Google it or check that locations page. Just like I already do whenever consulting any article that references an area I don't know.

Your false equivalency for Cork and Paris also makes no sense. As I have already said numerous times articles on a place should and do mention which country it's in as that is relevant. However if your instead suggesting that every single passing mention of county Cork should mention that it's located in the Republic of Ireland then that shouldn't be the case. There's no need for it and it's useless information, there is no other county Cork to become confused with.

There is no point to fill articles with information that isn't relevant to that articles topic. Dubarr18 (talk) 18:12, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes I added it. To your point, it is relevant information. As read the article implies that Slaghtaverty and Maghera are in Ireland when they are in fact more specifically in Northern Ireland. So that contextual clarification is not irrelevant. And adding a location context is not filling articles with information that isn't relevant.
 * Oh and interestingly, nothing in the article suggests this is an all Ireland myth, all the sources are only from the local area in what is now Northern Ireland. But yes it originated in what was originally just Ireland so I don't think that's actually relevant. <b style="color: Blue;">Canterbury Tail</b> <i style="color: Blue;">talk</i> 18:56, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

Where does the article imply anywhere it's located in the Republic of Ireland? It's fairly ambiguous in that regard. Again where is it exactly you think in the article that might mislead someone? Why not quote that section so we can both know where you think the article is implying Maghera is in the Republic.

Also may I ask again, what is it exactly that your worried about with the lack of a country name being given?

If a user does mistakenly place the region in the wrong country, be it Ireland, Northern Ireland or China what exactly is it that your worried will happen as a result?

A country doesn't always need to be given next to a location because it isn't relevant. Much in the same way we don't clarify individuals nationality when they are mentioned in an article or their ages. Also in the same way we don't clarify what particular day of the week a historic date fell on. There is a humongous amount of irrelevant information that could be added to articles because they give clarification or additional context but aren't added because they aren't relevant. Why is the country of a particular location any different?

Even if someone makes a mistake and concludes that Maghera is in Japan it simply is a matter of reading that article to have it clarified for them. That's why Maghera has an article for it, to clarify information such as this. Much in the same way if I was reading an article and wanted to know more about a particular individuals nationality, religion or age I'd read their article instead as that's where that information should be.

Disregarding all this I also noticed there might actually be a wider issue. It appears that the section referencing Maghera doesn't actually have a citation for it, I've tried looking for one but the only source I found mentioning Slaghtaverty is 'The Dolmens of Ireland' by William Borlase 1897. Unfortunately the only archive I can find of it is on Google books which doesn't allow me to download or read the book in it's entirety so I can't verify that the information given in the article is accurate. Should a citation needed by added in the meantime? Dubarr18 (talk) 19:16, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Ha, what a great point. Quite right. We're debating back and forth over an unreferenced section and missing the woods for the trees. This is the best reference I can locate (in a very short search I might add,) and it describes it as a "Stone Burial Chamber, Dwarfs Grave — Slaghtaverty, Errigal, Garvagh." so not even a dolmen and doesn't specifically connect it to Abhartach either. <b style="color: Blue;">Canterbury Tail</b> <i style="color: Blue;">talk</i> 19:52, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

Since it appears that neither of us are persuaded by the other's arguments may suggest simply holding a vote and both agreeing to follow its results regarding this page?

Looking at this page here; https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:How_to_hold_a_consensus_vote

it seems we've done the first step as best as possible so a simple vote should be held. I do acknowledge it appears that page has become outdated but I'm unsure where exactly the newer version is or if there even is one. (I do find Wikipedia layout for pages on sitguidance generally a confusing mess of links between defunct pages and modern ones.)

It simply seems that a vote or other means to reach consensus is the best option here.

If one is to be held do you know of another page to hold it on? Obviously the talk page here is suitable but I'd worry that we might not get other voters as the page seems little visited. If this is the only site though then it will have to do. Dubarr18 (talk) 19:56, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

Just to add since I've only seen your most recent addition now;

That seems a best source as any though not great still. It does seem concerning that there is little reference to it. I'll continue to see if I can find anything for it Dubarr18 (talk) 19:58, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I think as a source it's considered reliable enough. Problem is it doesn't support anything in the article so it's not really of any use here. As for your other question, this article gets little to no traffic, mostly just some hits from new editors who don't stick around, so having a policy or guidelines based consensus discussion really isn't that suitable due to the lack of traffic. WP:CON is the policy page on consensus, and we don't vote or count votes per WP:NOTVOTE. Consensus is based on strength of argument, preferably policy and guideline based. That all being said, I think the best place for the discussion would actually be the Wikiproject Ireland discussion pages. Seriously though, I've been around for quite some time, if you need any pointers towards policy/guidelines pages etc I can help you out there. <b style="color: Blue;">Canterbury Tail</b> <i style="color: Blue;">talk</i> 20:56, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

quotation
The reference to 'Londonderry' is in a quotation from Joyce's 'The origin and history of Irish names of places' - page 319. The book from which the quotation is taken uses the name 'Londonderry', so the quotation should also use that name. Anything else would be a misquotation. Alekksandr (talk) 17:35, 15 January 2023 (UTC)

County Londonderry
See Manual_of_Style/Ireland-related_articles - "To avoid constant renaming of articles (and more), keep a neutral point of view, promote consistency in the encyclopedia, and avoid Stroke City-style terms perplexing to those unfamiliar with the dispute, a compromise solution and  in 2004 regarding the Derry/Londonderry name dispute, and has been generally accepted as a convention for both article titles and in-article references since then. Use Derry for the city and County Londonderry for the county in articles. Do not deviate from this merely because the subject relates to a particular side of the political divide, but where an entity uses a particular name, regardless of whether it is Derry or Londonderry, use that name for the entity; thus High Sheriff of County Londonderry, former Derry Central Railway, Londonderry railway station, North West Liberties of Londonderry, and Derry GAA (which will usually be abbreviated to  )." Please comply with Wikipedia's Manual of Style. Alekksandr (talk) 10:37, 1 May 2023 (UTC)