Talk:Abortion in Canada/Some of the political ways the pro choice vs. pro life movement were playing out in the 1980's in Canada

A general comment on the way that the pro life pro choice movement what was playing out in the early 80's
Just a general comment that i think i put originally on the talk page but erased before i found out the pages could actually go beyond 32kb AND i didn't know how to argue (so i erased mostly what i'd written when it was getting full) it was a big deal. I remember my mom looking very carefully at a two page newspaper ad (broadsheet newspaper not tabloid). On it was a list of doctors who were pro life and paid for the article. As before there would likely be some grey but these doctors were also the type that generally would not even refer you to someone else (another problem that could slow things down). My mom was going through the whole list (it was large and in small type). I asked her why (i was young) and she explained what it was about (i knew what an abortion was by then...but i'm pretty sure i found out by nine because i came across it in a book). She was checking to see if ANY doctor she had was on the list. Not just her gynecologist. She made clear that why she was checking it was that if she had found a doctor she had on the list she would have left that doctor. And she wasn't an abortion activist although she was strongly pro choice and believe in the right of a woman to have an abortion...but she wasn't involved in it generally. I'd be surprised if she did anything more than write our Member of Parliament about it...and i'm not all that sure she would have even gone that far.--Marcie 19:29, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Supreme Court Decision that made clear a mother and a child were one and the same
I don't know why the summary is going in double spaced as its not double spaced on the page i took it from...but i don't see why its double spaced here so i can't change it...--Marcie 19:47, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I fixed it. The problem was that some lines were indented and this triggered the double spacing. --[[User:Tony Sidaway|Tony Sidaway|Talk]] 07:17, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Since this was just a discussion of format that had successfully been changed it was moved to this page to facilitate the summarizing of the main talk page--Marcie 14:45, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)

How to deal with the medical access/payment issue
Still don't have time to put everything in but someone made a useful suggestion, that there be a section on how abortion is covered in medicare/problems with the coverage of abortion in medicare. This would take into account what the law on access is and wether that law is being followed. That was what a lot of the material you see on the page about access to abortion is about---the fact that it isn't equal across the country despite the fact that it is supposed to be.

For a short list of what i did pick up today, an abortion is considered a medically necessary procedure. As such it is up to all provinces to provide funding for abortions. While health is officially in the provincial sphere a lot of the money comes from the federal government and the government is allowed to fine any province by quite a bit if they do not follow the rules, although so far today i've only seen mention of a fine of $50,000....i am pretty sure i've seen a larger one.

A number of the provinces have argued that they don't need to provide the procedure or appealed in other ways. The only province that currently isn't covered by the above is PEI. I didn't get a lot of good information as to why. It would be worth trying to find.

What was not initially is not clear is if abortion clinics need to be funded despite the fact that having an abortion at a clinic is safer because of the type of anesthetic used, and can usually be aranged faster (private and public clinics).

A hospital in one maritime province stopped offering abortions which means that there will need to be large amounts of travel to those who live in the region to get abortions.

Depending on the province some will pay your costs if you need to go a distance to obtain your abortion. Quebec will (for example as talked about on the page) pay for third term abortions that are currently being performed in the US. Quebec is looking for a doctor that will provide the service within Quebec but for the moment does pick up the cost of doing the procedure elsewhere.

Its not unusual for provinces to do this. For example in Ontario there is no inpatient program for youth that have addictions (and for a long time there wasn't anything outpatient at least in my city which meant that even more folks needed to be sent to residential programs---maybe why i heard of them). Teenagers with addictions when i was in high school (12 years ago) were sent to clinics in the US. The cost of getting there was covered. The cost of getting to the hosptial from the airport was covered as was the cost of the program and the return home. I doubt that has changed unless a clinic is now in Ontario. I imagine if there was a program in another province they would have covered that first, so its likely there are none.

I know that folks in Saskatchewan that need to go distances to get medical treatment have a lot of the costs covered. If they drive and keep track of the mileage they are reimburesed a certain amount per kilometer and i believe if its necessary to stay in an area (but not in a hospital) that reasonable costs are reimbursed as well. From what i understand it doesn't ever really add up to the real total cost---but it is a significant amount of the cost. This is more likely to be occuring in Sasketwan because they closed a lot of the more rural hospitals down so i suppose there was more pressure on them to then pick up the costs, but other provinces also do this for certain procedures.

The Yukon territory also picks up the costs if i remember right from what i was reading today (i'll need to go over it more carefully).

You do however need to get the costs approved before hand. There was a case earlier this year where a woman with Cancer wanted to go to a particular spot in the United States that offered an alternative type of care. She had been declared terminal in Canada. She appealed the fact that the province would not pay for the costs. It was determined (if memory serves) that the type of treatment she was seeking was not viewed as being more successful by the province and the province in question successfully argued that it did not have to pick up the costs of someone deciding that they wanted a particular treatment that was not viewed as effective and not available in the province. It was on CBC.CA but it would likely be a big search.

So the answer to the question that both of you seemed to be talking about is that the provinces are at least responsible for providing abortions in hospitals to all residents. The reason we put in so much information on the page as it stands now is because we were all aware that it was not equally available, but that legally in Canada it should be. If it isn't there should be a large fine on the province. How often that happens is another matter. The fine basically works this way. The federal government reduces the amount they help pay for medicare in the province towards  by the fine assessed.

So the answer to the question that both of you seemed to be talking about is that the provinces are at least responsible for providing abortions in hospitals to all residents. The reason we put in so much information on the page as it stands now is because we were all aware that it was not equally available, but that legally in Canada it should be. If it isn't there should be a large fine on the province. How often that happens is another matter. The fine basically works this way. The federal government reduces the amount they help pay for medicare in the province towards  by the fine assessed.

A better example of when this happened was in BC. For a while Alberta was giving bus tickets to people on welfare to go to BC (Klein government). The benefits were also better in BC, although with cost of living it wasn't the same as the actual amount in dollars. As a result a lot of people went to BC and then applied for welfare. BC decided that it would put a requirement of living in the province for a certain period of time before you could recieve welfare (i believe it was six months). The federal government under the CAP program reduced the amount of money that it was transfering to BC by the amount it was denying to people living there. A requirement of the funding was that there be no residency period requirement...although the government was not fond of what Alberta was doing either and i believed Alberta stopped because of publicity and pressure. BC changed the policy a few months after this occured. I think this may have happened before block grants were brought in in 1995 (i'm pretty sure its that budget...another thing to look up).The block funding program has made it harder to enforce standards because when they brought in the block grants instead of the CAP program they reduced the funds a lot---reduced payments to the provinces means reduced influence. I've actually commented on this on the talk page of Politics of Canada. Its the most recent entry and more detailed if its of interest...and explains why getting standards is now harder. Its on the talk page for two reasons 1. i'm not sure if there really is room to fit it in and 2. i was hoping for comment on POV because while i know a lot of the facts i also have my own POVs of course. I didn't hide my POV on the talk page but asked for comments on how to approach the issue, how to fit in into the page and discussion on how to put the information in in a NPOV way (i could put some in that way but i would want comments/other people opinions on how to word and hopefully a good POV/NPOV discussion before moving more of it onto the actual page.--Marcie 02:54, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Statistics
''As there was a request for statistics i put together some from the material i've been reading over the last several days. The list is partial copies of larger lists. If you want to look at the full list just follow the links. They are from both pro choice and pro life sites although i didn't go out of my way to count how many are from each. Some are from neutral sources. I think on Wiki you can use stats as they are. If not the addresses give a way back to go and site. I'm working on another page that is less statistically oriented but containst information that i think is relevant.I was collecting these from pages before a request for statistics from earlier years...therefore not much of it is from a long time ago. I've also been checking out the positions of the political parties. For an information page to try and gauge how to deal with the political issue The Bloc Quebecois is the most accessible page and actually has a search engine on it (the only one that did). There is good info there but its all in French. I could probably translate it decently---better than a computer anyway. I certainly was able to read it without a problem (political parties don't put up information that is all that hard to read generally since the average anglophone canadian reads at about a grade 9 or 10 level.) I've got a good French dictionary here to work from and i was billingual in the past at a higher level.I think they had the best page and the most information. I'll admit some bias. I'm a member of the NDP but i like a fair amount of what the Bloc stands for. But then i don't like or care about a lot of what they stand for either...but they'd be my second choice in all likelyhood if i was in Quebec, that or the new leftwing alliance that is growing at the moment. The NDP pages also make it very clear that they are in support of abortion and a women's right to choose. At the moment though almost everything i'm getting is election platform...sometime soon i'll try and get more info with different key words. The Conservative Party of Canada site only has articles saying that it refutes the Liberals that they will limit abortions, although i'm pretty sure that Harper has said he'll allow private members bills (which are different) and its election based as well (ie its was explicitly written for people to read during the election and goes on to tell you why to vote for them.The only other party that has a chance of winning seats in Canada is the Green Party. Do people think its a large enough force yet to check out (they got about 6% of the vote in BC this time around). Suprisingly you can't even get onto the Liberal page without giving them info on how to get back to you and your postal code. i gave them an address that has a lot of space but that i don't use much...but they didn't get my real name or address (i don't need them bugging me....i was very surprised though that you couldn't even get onto the page.) Again i wasn't able to find much.'' Last modified: 2004-03-31.

http://www.prochoiceactionnetwork-canada.org/04spring-summer.html

StatsCan Releases 2001 Abortion Figures — According to Statistics Canada, women obtained 106,418 abortions in 2001, a slight increase of almost 1%, from 105,427 in 2000. The rate of abortion also marginally increased from 15.4 abortions per 1,000 women in 2000 to 15.6 abortions per 1,000 women in 2001.

http://www.prochoiceactionnetwork-canada.org/03autwin.html The motion also called to "increase the proportion of hospitals providing abortions from the current 17% to 33% by 2005"

http://www.prochoiceactionnetwork-canada.org/03autwin.html The motion also called to "increase the proportion of hospitals providing abortions from the current 17% to 33% by 2005"

Pro-Choice Press a publication of BC's Pro-Choice Action Network Summer 2003 Issue

Special Report: Where Is the Anti-Choice Movement Headed? by Joyce Arthur http://www.prochoiceactionnetwork-canada.org/03summer.html

Extremists Those who commit violence against providers and clinics, or who openly encourage or condone it. 2-3% Confrontationists Those who aggressively picket clinics or use confrontational tactics,such as picketing (of homes and clinics) making it harder to obtain and abortion, and bring law cases forward to try and stop them 15-20% Bead-Counters Those who picket clinics in a legal, peaceful, and non-intrusive way, or who participate in other non-confrontational protest activity; primarily motivated by devout religious belief. 5-10% Lobbyists Those who engage in at least one of the following: legislative work, political lobbying, internal organizing, and media work or publishing.40-50% Counselors Those involved in anti-choice "counseling" centers or similar "woman-centered" pregnancy aid; not including sidewalk counselors. Also includes "researchers" who publicize the “dangers” of abortion to women. 20-25% end of current summary--Marcie 19:40, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC

Probably the biggest "success" of Canada's anti-choice movement relates to the rise of anti-choice extremism in the U.S. and its spread to Canada. Extremist and Confrontationist tactics have had a large impact on abortion provision in Canada by creating a climate of intimidation among doctors and healthcare workers. The Canadian anti-choice movement is considerably more genteel than its U.S. counterpart when it comes to such tactics, most of which we might never have experienced were it not for our long and porous border with the U.S. The shootings of three doctors since 1994 were almost certainly carried out by an American anti-choice radical (suspect James Kopp). Confrontationist tactics such as clinic blockades and home picketing were largely led or taught by American Extremists like Joseph Scheidler.

Out of five major political parties, four are officially pro-choice, and the fifth has no plans to stop legal abortion.

''Of course there is now 4 parties. The Conservative Party of Canada has promised it won't bring in legislation but appears to be willing to allow private members bills.M''

those women who haven't yet made up their minds are much more likely to be persuaded against abortion by the legitimate counselors inside than the illegitimate ones outside

I thought this particular thought was interesting although it is obviously not needed for the article especially since its american M

with a minimum 7% of abortions overall being performed on anti-choice women (Henshaw et al 1982; Alan Guttmacher Institute 1996).

Clinic protests are directly associated with increased levels of violence (Feminist Majority Foundation 2003).

According to the Feminist Majority Foundation, which does extensive research on anti-choice violence and harassment, “severe violence” includes blockades, invasions, bombings, arsons, chemical attacks, stalking, physical violence, gunfire, bomb threats, death threats, and arson threats. “Moderate violence” includes graffiti, broken windows, tampering with garbage dumpster, tampering with phone lines/calls, nails in driveway/parking lot, vandalism of staff homes or personal property, glue in locks, motor oil in driveway/parking lot, home picketing, and break-ins. “Other harassment” includes screaming at patients, pushing signs in their faces, touching them, physically restraining them, opening car doors of patients, yelling through windows of private patient rooms, following patients down the street or to their homes, impersonating police officers or clinic staff to abuse the trust of patients, naming clinic staff and discussing their personal lives during demonstrations, on the radio, and on bumper stickers.

This page sponsored by Priests for Life Canada http://www.webhart.net/vandee/abortstat.shtml

Therapeutic abortions among Canadian women (by source of report) 1970 to 2000

This again is a partial list of the statistics on the page..go to the link to read whole set of statistics.M The therapeutic abortion rate, excluding Ontario, decreased to 31.8 abortions for every 100 live births in 1999 from 32.3 in 1998. The rate is based on therapeutic abortions performed in hospitals and clinics outside Ontario, as well as legal abortions obtained by Canadian women in the United States.

Therapeutic abortions were most common among women in their twenties-they accounted for 52% of all women who obtained abortions in 1999. On average, 27 women out of every 1,000 in their twenties obtained an abortion.

Induced abortions continued to be most common among women in their twenties, who accounted for 51% of all women who obtained an abortion in 2000. On average, 26 women out of every 1,000 in their twenties obtained an abortion.

Just under two-thirds of all therapeutic abortions in 1997 were performed in hospitals, and just over one-third in clinics. Canadian women obtained 293 therapeutic abortions in the United States in 1997, down from 301 in 1996 and 459 in 1995.

Over 39% of abortions performed in clinics occurred when the women had been pregnant less than nine weeks, compared with 29% of abortions at the same stage in hospitals. In addition, 17% of abortions performed in clinics involved pregnancies of 13 to 20 weeks' duration, compared with only about 10% at the same stage in hospitals.

STATISTICS CANADA RELEASES FIGURES ON TEENAGE PREGNANCY OTTAWA, Jan 16 (LSN) - The number of pregnancies among women 15 to 19 rose to 45,771 in 1995, compared with 39,340 in 1987, a rise of 15.3 per cent, Statistics Canada reported today. The organization also reported that the proportion of teen pregnancies ending in abortion rose to 45 per cent in 1994 from 26 per cent in 1974. In 1994, 21,000 teens had abortions, accounting for 20 per cent of all abortions in that year.

However, in most hospitals and clinics, the procedure is limited to a gestational age range that is specific to that facility

An analysis of the impact of state-level restrictions on abortion in the United States (U.S.) indicates that abortion rates are unchanged by different funding policies

As of March 1998, a woman may obtain an abortion in all provinces and territories in Canada, except Prince Edward Island

The abortion ratio also increased between 1990 and 1995, from 22.9 to 28.2. The 1995 ratio corresponds to one abortion for every 3-4 live births. The increase in the abortion ratio is partly attributable to a decrease in the number of live births over time. Abortions are primarily performed in hospitals, but the proportion performed in clinics is increasing. In 1990, 22% of reported abortions were performed in clinics. By 1995, this proportion had risen to 34%. All clinic abortions and almost all hospital abortions (94%) are performed on an outpatient basis, with no overnight stay.

This subset consisted of clinic records from Ontario and Alberta and 76% of hospital abortion records. Routinely available abortion data contain no information about rural versus urban differences nor any details about the reasons why Canadian women have abortions. The percentage of pregnancies terminated following prenatal detection of congenital anomalies is thus unknown.

This fact sheet was prepared by Konia Trouton and Susie Dzakpasu.