Talk:Abraham Zangen

Request edit on 6 January 2018
Dear editors, This Wiki page was done according to the COI guidelines. I declared my paid editing on my personal page and on this talk page. I am suggesting corrections and editing for this entry for the following matters:

✅ Kindly notify ASAP if any error is noticed in the subject's Hebrew name as it is displayed in the lead, so that it may be fixed promptly. Thank you.
 * Please add the Hebrew name:  אברהם צנגן

✅ Added to external links
 * Please add that Prof. Zangen has more than 150 articles: https://scholar.google.co.il/citations?user=kgHy4MQAAAAJ&hl=en


 * Please add the FDA approval for the TMS technology: https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfPMN/pmn.cfm?ID=K122288

This is the sentence: Zangen is the co-inventor of several patents for Deep TMS H-coil technology, which allows for deep non-invasive stimulation of the brain, a technology that has been FDA cleared for the treatment of MDD.Zahira Cohen (talk) 08:50, 21 January 2018 (UTC)


 * I also would like you to clear the COI tag since it was done following Wikipedia's rules. This person is a scientist that his remarkable work influence and treat people with depression. Thank you in advance.

❌ Additionally, the reference for israel21c.org (and any text cited by it) was removed. According to the Terms of Service, it states in part:"The materials on ISRAEL21c’s web site are provided “as is”. ISRAEL21c does not warrant or make any representations concerning the accuracy, likely results, or reliability of the use of the materials on its Internet web site or otherwise relating to such materials or on any sites linked to this site."As the website cannot make claims to the accuracy of information found on its servers, the use of it as a reference should be discouraged, until shown to be otherwise. We appreciate your understanding. You are encouraged to seek the addition of reliable, 2nd and 3rd party sources to add to the article via the Edit request system. These include long-established local or national news media within Israel, which we would welcome. Please feel free to reopen your edit request with such proposals at your earliest convenience. Regards,  Spintendo  ᔦᔭ   15:00, 20 January 2018 (UTC)
 * A number of the other editors who have worked on this article have not declared their COI. Not sure if User:Jytdog has fully reviewed this article yet. Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 20:25, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

tags
I have worked this over and removed the tags. We don't build biographies of scientists in WP by citing their papers and describing what they say. For people with many many papers like Zangen this become just random or is driven by some knowledge that is not actually in the sources. So please don't do that. Jytdog (talk) 22:00, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

Thank you JytdogZahira Cohen (talk) 08:51, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

Request edit on 20 January 2018
Thank you for all the changes that have been done so far. One more thing, It is stated that Zangen was made a professor in 2015. Please change it according to the CV. He was made a professor since 2010 but received a FULL professor in 2015. Thank you so much!Zahira Cohen (talk) 08:47, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

✅  Spintendo  ᔦᔭ   10:22, 21 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the correction. I was not so crear probably, I want that it will be writen that he was made a professor in 2010 and acheived a full professor level at 2015. can this be fixed? It's two differnet things.
 * Thank you:)Zahira Cohen (talk) 12:48, 21 January 2018 (UTC)
 * the "full professor" thing is kind of bullshitty but whatever. a "professor" is a full professor in standard academic discussions; he was actually appointed as an associate prof, which is entirely normal. I won't contest the "full" thing but saying he was appointed as a "professor" when he first came to BGU is not OK. At all. Jytdog (talk) 20:27, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

Request edit on 22 January 2018
Hi again! Thank you for the corrections so far. There are still things that were left open of the previous request. 1. adding the FDA approval (I added a sentence as was asked in the previous request) 2. Changing the dates for the professor achievement: I also wrote that he was made a professor in 2010 and 2015 he achieved full professor rank and I think both should be written, or the former (i.e., he was made a professor in 2010). 3. Please add Zangen's picture: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Abraham_Zangen_Profile_Picture.jpg

Thank you so much in advance :)Zahira Cohen (talk) 17:31, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
 * the cv is very clear:


 * 2015-present: Full Professor, Dept of Life Science, Ben-Gurion University
 * 2012-2015: Associate Professor, Dept of Life Science, Ben-Gurion University, Israel
 * 2010-2012: Associate Professor, Dept of Neurobiology, The Weizmann Institute, Israel
 * 2003-2010: Senior Scientist, Dept of Neurobiology, The Weizmann Institute, Israel
 * 2000-2003: Postdoctoral Fellowship, National Institute on Drug Abuse (NIDA), NIH, USA
 * 1994-1999: Research and Teaching Assistant (as a Ph.D. student), Bar-Ilan University, Israel
 * The picture is done.
 * The FDA approval was done by the company not him.
 * In the future please post the actual content that you would like to see implemented, properly formatted, with sources. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 20:19, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

Reply
Date of year corrected. Please note that the previously listed date of 2012 — an errant date which, because it conflicted with the date you were attempting to add (2010) acted to keep open your edit request — was not an edit I implemented — and thus, wasn't a door I left open. Needless to say, I am happy to close it. As far as the FDA information, if you could point out where that is located I would be most grateful. Regards,  Spintendo  ᔦᔭ   20:25, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
 * No, 2012 is the correct date. Jytdog (talk) 20:28, 22 January 2018 (UTC)


 * This is the correct version that I cleared it out with Zangen:
 * Zangen returned to Israel in 2003 and took a Senior Scientist position at the Department of Neurobiology at the Weizmann Institute,[1,2] and became a Professor in 2010[2]. In 2012 he joined the Ben-Gurion University of the Negev, established the Brain Stimulation and Behavior Lab [ https://web.archive.org/web/20171112021534/https://lifeserv.bgu.ac.il/wp/azangen/] and was made the chair of the PsychoBiology Brain Program[2].


 * With regards to the FDA approval, how about this version?
 * The H-coil was patented by the NIH in 2002 and was licensed by the startup company Brainsway in 2003.[5][6], which received FDA approval for the technology [REF: https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfPMN/pmn.cfm?ID=K122288]. He has continued to do research on applications for deep TMS.[2]


 * With regards to the citations. I think the best thing is just to add an external link to the Google citations so that if someone wants to read about his work he will have a place where it is all.
 * I hope this will clear everything

Thanks. Zahira Cohen (talk) 09:13, 24 January 2018 (UTC).

Note 1
Hi, This is Abraham Zangen, I am not sure what is the basis for the selected scientific publications here (out of over 170 articles and book chapters that I have authored). Can you please add the "google scholar" link to the full list of my scientific publications (the advantage is that it is authomatically updated): https://scholar.google.co.il/citations?user=kgHy4MQAAAAJ&hl=iw I hope this is possible. Also, there are some factual errors in the article regarding my career which Zahira Cohen suggested correcting already in January 22. -- — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.172.61.147 (talk • contribs) 06:13, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your note. We do not accept it as true, when people say "I am person X".
 * With regard to the changes you request:
 * We do not use search results as references
 * Not sure what "errors" you mean.
 * In general please be aware that this is an encyclopedia. Biography articles are not personal webpages nor are the meant to be CVs.  High level, encyclopedic content is what we aim for. Jytdog (talk) 19:56, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

Request edit on 21 February 2018
Since there is no answer, I am sending a new request.

1. Please modify the sentence under "Scientific Career" saying: Zangen returned to Israel in 2003 and took a position at the Weizmann Institute to: Zangen returned to Israel in 2003 and established a neurobiology lab at the Weizmann Institute[1], where he received a professorship in 2010[2]. In these years he characterized long-term neuroplastic and behavioral effects of brain stimulation in animal models [please add references A,B,C – see below] and humans [references D,E – see below], and developed systems for controlling electric field pulse parameters using deep transcranial magnetic stimulation[reference F – see below].

Reference "A" – Levy D., Shabat-Simon M., Shalev U., Barnea-Ygael N., Cooper A. and Zangen A. (2007) Repeated electrical stimulation of reward-related brain regions affects cocaine but not "natural" reinforcement. J. Neurosci. 27; 14179-89.

Reference "B" – Gersner R., Toth E., Isserless I. and Zangen A. (2010) Site-specific antidepressant effects of repeated subconvulsive electrical stimulation: potential role of brain-derived neurotrophic factor. Biol. Psychiatry, 67: 125-132.

Reference "C" – Gersner R., Kravetz E., Feil J., Pell G. and Zangen A. (2011) Long-term effects of repetitive transcranial magnetic stimulation on markers for neuroplasticity: differential outcomes in anesthetized and awake animals. J Neurosci. 31:7521-6.

Reference "D" – Levkovitz Y., Roth Y., Harel E.V., Braw Y., Sheer A. and Zangen A. (2007) Deep Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation: a randomized controlled safety and cognitive study. Clin. Neurophysiol, 118: 2730–2744.

Reference "E" – Levkovitz Y., Harel E.V.,Roth Y., Braw Y., Sheer A., Katz L., Gersner R. and Zangen A. (2009) Deep transcranial magnetic stimulation over the prefrontal cortex: evaluation of antidepressant and cognitive effects in depressive patients. Brain Stimulation 2: 188-200.

Reference "F" - https://patents.google.com/patent/WO2010067336A2/nl

2. Then the last sentence now stating:

"In 2012 he joined the faculty of Ben-Gurion University of the Negev as an associate professor and was made a full professor in 2015.[2]"

Should be replaced with:

In 2012 he joined the Ben-Gurion University of the Negev to the chair of the Psychobiology Brain Program and established the Neurobiology of Behavior lab[2]. He was made a full professor in 2015[2].

Thank you in advance Zahira Cohen (talk) 08:26, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

Reply 22-FEB-2018

 * 1) This level of minutiae isn't necessary, per WP:NOTCV and WP:NOTEVERYTHING.
 * 2) The sentence as it reads in the article already communicates the basics of the subject's employment at this location. An exposition of each specific duty performed there is not required.
 * Regards,      Spintendo       11:59, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

Note 2
Hi, this is Abraham Zangen (the subject of this article). I would like to comment that the patent and related literature described above in this talk page by Zahira Cohen in February 21, are perhaps the most important description of my scientific work following the initial development of deep TMS and brain stimulation research. This is far more important than (the inaccurate) details on my promotion to associate prof. (which was at 2010, not 2012) vs. full prof. Therefore, I think that all the suggested revisions from Feb 21 should be accepted. --109.186.78.98 (talk) 10:14, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
 * You are ignoring what we are writing here. Dates from Zangen's CV are copied above.  Jytdog (talk) 20:15, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

Note 3
The following is more accurate and relevant information for the item:

Zangen studies neuroplasticity in the brain reward system and the effects of brain stimulation on neuroplasticity in psychiatric disorders including depression, addiction and attention deficits.
 * Scientific career

During his postdoc at the U.S. National Institutes of Health, Zangen was part of a team that invented a magnetic coil called the "H coil" for use in transcranial magnetic stimulation (TMS); the coil allows deeper penetration of the magnetic field into the brain and the procedure whereby the H-coil was applied to TMS became known as deep TMS. The H-coil was patented by the NIH in 2002, and was licensed by the startup company Brainsway in 2003. He has continued to do research on applications for deep TMS.

Zangen returned to Israel in 2003 and established a neurobiology lab at the Weizmann Institute, where he received a professorship in 2010. In these years he characterized long-term neuroplastic and behavioral effects of brain stimulation in animal models , and humans  , and developed systems for controlling electric field pulse parameters using deep transcranial magnetic stimulation. In 2012 he joined the Ben-Gurion University of the Negev to the chair of the Psychobiology Brain Program and established the Neurobiology of Behavior lab. He was made a full professor in 2015.

-- — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jorjioh (talk • contribs) 19:42, 6 March 2018 (UTC)


 * In Wikipedia, we do not summarize primary sources ourselves. So the sentence " In these years he characterized long-term neuroplastic and behavioral effects of brain stimulation in animal models [7][8][9], and humans [10][11], and developed systems for controlling electric field pulse parameters using deep transcranial magnetic stimulation[12] " is not OK here in WP.    Writing in Wikipedia is not like writing anywhere else.  All that we do here is summarize what others sources say. We don't write what we know and  throw citations behind that, as you did in that sentence.  I fully understand that this is how people write in academia and elsewhere, every single day.  It is not how content is generated here.  Please see user:Jytdog/How.
 * Also as noted above, "associate professor" is not "professor" and no, we will not say "received a professorship in 2010." Please stop requesting this. Jytdog (talk) 20:07, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

Hi, I don't fully understand why the sentence on the patent is not included. Also, if you mention the year regarding "full professor" (2015) it would only make sense to mention the correct year of "associate professor" (2010) and not as you imply (2012). The other issues discussed above regarding a link to the publications were not addressed either. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.72.90.100 (talk) 18:38, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

Smoking content; other elaboration
User:Gilabrand in general we avoid citing mainstream media reports based on press releases about research papers - see WP:MEDREV. The Times of Isreal piece is a great example of why we don't do this. It says actually ridiculous things like "the US Food and Drug Administration is now testing the machine for approval." and "The FDA is conducting clinical trials on a version of the most effective treatment at some 20 clinics throughout the United States, Europe, and Israel." It also hypes the results, not dealing at all with the key medical/scientific issues like whether each arm of the study was adequately powered and other aspects of experimental design that an appropriate source would do. The Times of Isreal is very reliable for news etc; this particular piece is bad in the typical ways that mainstream media based on press releases about research papers are, and not something we should even cite in WP. The content you have been wanting to source from this "Zangen claims that deep TMS can help smokers quit the habit by boosting networks of neurons in behavior- inhibiting brain regions which will make them better able to resist the urge to smoke" also goes a bit beyond what Zangen is quoted as saying - he says it ~appears~ to help smokers quit. fwiw we also avoid "claim" per WP:CLAIM.

With respect to the elaborations you have added about his academic career moves, you have a nice quote on your user page from Dr Seuss abut this; there is no need for all this flourish. He was there, then there, then there, nor is there a need to use more and more self-published sources. Jytdog (talk) 15:45, 21 March 2018 (UTC)