Talk:Abraham in Islam/Archive 1

Untitled
The quote: "Also, unlike Jewish belief, Muslims note that nowhere in the Qur'an does God say that it was He who told Ibrahim to sacrifice his son nor does God say He gave Ibrahim the dream of the sacrifice. The Qur'an teaches that God never advocates evil. Thus, it is said that for a father to slaughter his son, is an evil that cannot be coming from God; it can only come from Satan. Furthermore, Muslims state that God would not contradict Himself and, test. Since Ibrahim thought the dream was from God and he proceeded to sacrifice his son Ismail, God sent him the lamb to be sacrificed instead, and to save Ismail and the father-son sacred relationship. Furthermore, Muslims believe that God promised to protect His righteous believers from Satan's tricks, and he saved Ibrahim and his son, Ismail, from this exact test." is totally untrue. It is against traditional Muslim's sources. --Islami 02:27, 30 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes It Is —Preceding unsigned comment added by Actionfury199 (talk • contribs) 13:17, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

No I disagree — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.161.37.243 (talk • contribs) 02:41, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Abraham in Islam
This article ought be retitled "Abraham in Islam", with a prominent link back to the Abraham article across the top.

Along with reconciling it to the standards of an English-language article, it would bring in a broader mix of editors, and help curb POV biases. Also, this article could benefit from more copy editting; more traffic can only help the situation.Timothy Usher 07:42, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I think the mitigating phrase is "Islam regards..." Ibrahim as essentially a Muslim. Tom Harrison Talk 15:35, 28 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Being a Hanif does not make one "essentially a Muslim", because to accept that "There is no god but God" - as do I - is not enough to be considered Muslim. One must also accept that "Muhammad is the messenger of God."  Abraham was never asked this
 * "Ibrahim is regarded..." is somewhat mitigating, but only somewhat.


 * I've added the Hanif link - this is a good place to talk about whether Hanifs were Muslims or not.Timothy Usher 20:54, 28 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree. This article should be renamed Abraham in Islam or Abraham (Quran) just as we have Abraham (Hebrew Bible). — Aiden 18:47, 25 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I dont support the notion of "" is somehow a good name for the "Islamic view of x". "Ibrahim " is also the Arabic Jewish and Arabic Christian names for the same person, Muslims dont own the name. The correct tittle for this article is Islamic view of Abraham, both articles reffer to the same historical person, only difference being that this article is focusing on the Islamic view. There are no solid arguements for naming this article after the Arabic version of the name. This should not be named "Abraham in Islam/Qur'an", since "in Qur'an" exludes hadith literature and its not about voul language him in islam, rather, how Islam views him. It also makes more sese to follow the naming convention of Islamic view of Jesus, Jewish view of Jesus and Christian views of Jesus --Striver 07:51, 4 June 1006 (UTC)

Merge, not rename/move
While that would clear out some of the confusion, It is better to merge this page with Abraham,and discuss the naming convention in different religions under a specific headline. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.122.203.192 (talk • contribs) 20:40, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't agree as long as we have Abraham (Hebrew Bible). Further, the view is prominent enough to have its own article, and mind you, we havent even included hadith literature. --Striver 09:20, 11 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, there is no longer, so......?Redheylin (talk) 13:53, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

another ibrahim
ibrahim muhammad —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.231.25.21 (talk) 02:59, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Merge
I think that making this page separate may unduly marginalize Islamic views on Abraham. Also, reading the discussions above, where one user objects to merging because there is also a separate Christian article on Abraham, it is important to note that this separate page was since merged into the main article on Abraham. Khin2718 (talk) 02:25, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Binding of Isaac in Islam
I have edited this article I dont think there is anything to say because the sources for that was the Quran and the verses of the Quran are mentioned in the edited article and Ive also kept a conclusion and literal proof for the editings I have made

One thing I deleted was the theory that some Muslim scholars say that Isaac and Jacob were both promised for Sarah so this means Ishmael was sacrificed. This Beleif and theory is false! because never does the Quran say in Arabic so? the verses that talk about Isaac and Jacob in arabic states that "we gave her the good news of Isaac and after Isaac Jacob" but what many english speakers don't know is that in Arabic grammer the letter BA was kept beside Isaac's name. the letter BA is a letter kept when someone wants to use the word 'with" so the Quran said we gave her glad tidings with Isaac by using the letter BA but however after that the Quran clearly says and after him we gave good news of Jacob but it doesnt use the letter BA the letter BA was only used with Isaac meaning that the angels came to talk about Isaac but after Isaac grew and the sacrifice occured god told Abraham about the birth of Jacob because the style of the Quran tends to talk about something and then states the future act .. the Quran clearly says that the three angels only gave news of Isaac in many verses i mentioned in the article and there is no verse talking about Jacob and the three angels except this one and like i mentioned earlier this verse used the letter BA to say with "we gave her glad tidings with Isaac'" BUT IT DOESNT USE THE LETTER BA WITH JACOB so clearly this verse talks about Isaac and then states the future of when Jacob was born long after Isaac grew with his father TO WALK AND WORK .. nowhere in Islamic tradition or the Quran it states that Jacob had a relation with the tidings of Isaac.. so this is another proof as well as I MYSELF HAVE EDITED THE ARTICLE AND CLEARY MADE THE STORY CLEAR SO A READER WOULD DEFINATLY UNDERSTAND MY POINT WITHOUT HAVING A LOOK AT THIS TALK PAGE... there are many things i didnt mention AS PROVE OF THE BINDING OF ISAAC IN ISLAM like the birth of Isaac give to Abraham when Abraham left his people or when abraham was ordered to sacrifice the un-named son who grew up with him and was given to him miraculously and clearly every knows that Ishmael was taken away from Abraham when he was just a baby nor did Ishmael have a miraculous birth nor did he live with his father to work and walk ....the quranic verse are kept in the article! ... Il put some here to make it easier to see

037.083 YUSUFALI: Verily among those who followed his Way was Abraham.

037.084 YUSUFALI: Behold! he approached his Lord with a sound heart.

037.085 YUSUFALI: Behold! he said to his father and to his people, "What is that which ye worship?

037.086 YUSUFALI: "Is it a falsehood- gods other than Allah- that ye desire?

037.087 YUSUFALI: "Then what is your idea about the Lord of the worlds?"

037.088 YUSUFALI: Then did he cast a glance at the Stars.

037.089 YUSUFALI: And he said, "I am indeed sick (at heart)!"

037.090 YUSUFALI: So they turned away from him, and departed.

037.091 YUSUFALI: Then did he turn to their gods and said, "will ye not eat (of the offerings before you)?...

037.092 YUSUFALI: "What is the matter with you that ye speak not (intelligently)?"

037.093 YUSUFALI: Then did he turn upon them, striking (them) with the right hand.

037.094 YUSUFALI: Then came (the worshippers) with hurried steps, and faced (him).

037.095 YUSUFALI: He said: "Worship ye that which ye have (yourselves) carved?

037.096 YUSUFALI: "But Allah has created you and your handwork!"

037.097 YUSUFALI: They said, "Build him a furnace, and throw him into the blazing fire!"

037.098 YUSUFALI: (This failing), they then sought a stratagem against him, but We made them the ones most humiliated!

037.099 YUSUFALI: He said: "I will go to my Lord! He will surely guide me!

037.100 YUSUFALI: "O my Lord! Grant me a righteous (son)!"

037.101 YUSUFALI: So We gave him the good news of a boy ready to suffer and forbear.

037.102 YUSUFALI: Then, when (the son) reached (the age of) (serious) work with him, he said: "O my son! I see in vision that I offer thee in sacrifice: Now see what is thy view!" (The son) said: "O my father! Do as thou art commanded: thou will find me, if Allah so wills one practising Patience and Constancy!"

037.103 YUSUFALI: So when they had both submitted their wills (to Allah), and he had laid him prostrate on his forehead (for sacrifice),

037.104 YUSUFALI: We called out to him "O Abraham!

037.105 YUSUFALI: "Thou hast already fulfilled the vision!" - thus indeed do We reward those who do right.

037.106 YUSUFALI: For this was obviously a trial-

037.107 YUSUFALI: And We ransomed him with a momentous sacrifice:

037.108 YUSUFALI: And We left (this blessing) for him among generations (to come) in later times:

037.109 YUSUFALI: "Peace and salutation to Abraham!"

037.110 YUSUFALI: Thus indeed do We reward those who do right.

037.111 YUSUFALI: For he was one of our believing Servants.

This verse says the WHOLE STORY ... a son was given to Abraham after Abraham left his pagan people and THIS SON WAS UN NAMED BUT WHAT THE READER CAN TAKE AS A CLUE IS THAT THE UN-NAMED SON WAS A CHILD GIVEN TO ABRAHAM AFTER HE LEFT HIS PAGAN PEOPLE

019.041 YUSUFALI: (Also mention in the Book (the story of) Abraham: He was a man of Truth, a prophet.

019.042 YUSUFALI: Behold, he said to his father: "O my father! why worship that which heareth not and seeth not, and can profit thee nothing?

019.043 YUSUFALI: "O my father! to me hath come knowledge which hath not reached thee: so follow me: I will guide thee to a way that is even and straight.

019.044 YUSUFALI: "O my father! serve not Satan: for Satan is a rebel against (Allah) Most Gracious.

019.045 YUSUFALI: "O my father! I fear lest a Penalty afflict thee from (Allah) Most Gracious, so that thou become to Satan a friend."

019.046 YUSUFALI: (The father) replied: "Dost thou hate my gods, O Abraham? If thou forbear not, I will indeed stone thee: Now get away from me for a good long while!"

019.047 YUSUFALI: Abraham said: "Peace be on thee: I will pray to my Lord for thy forgiveness: for He is to me Most Gracious.

LOOK AT THIS

019.048 YUSUFALI: "And I will TURN away from YOU (ALL) and from those whom ye invoke besides Allah: I will call on my Lord: perhaps, by my prayer to my Lord, I shall be not unblest."

019.049 YUSUFALI: When he had TURNED away from THEM and from those whom they worshipped besides Allah, We bestowed on him Isaac and Jacob, and each one of them We made a prophet.

these verses talk about ISAAC GIVEN TO ABRAHAM WHEN ABRAHAM LEFT HIS PAGAN PEOPLE SO THIS PROVES THAT THE UN-NAMED SACRIFICED SON WAS ISAAC BECAUSE THE EARLIER VERSE THAT MENTIONS THE SACRIFICE SAYS ABRAHAM WAS GIVEN A UN-NAMED SON ....... WHO WAS GIVEN TO HIM RIGHT AFTER HE LEFT HIS PAGAN PEOPLE AND LIKE I SAID .. THESE VERSES CLEARLY MENTIONS ISAAC BY NAME AS THE UN-NAMED SON WHO WAS GIVEN TO ABRAHAM WHEN HE LEFT HIS PAGAN PEOPLE.. so the conclsion is ... Isaac was binded :)

ps. please do mind my grammer and rush in this talk page thank you! Highdeeboy (talk) 09:26, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

A response to the Ishmael Claim
1. We arent christians nor should we use the bible to prove anything,because the bible also stated that Lot impregnated his daughters and that God came in the form of a man and ate with Abraham .. so I dont think we should be using the bible to proove anything because we belive the bible is corrupted and If youd ask a christian about the term "Only Son" he'd say that God recognizes Isaac as Abraham's only son because Ishmael was "cast out" .. so literally this statement posted is offensive towards the christian as well as has no relation with Islam Because when ONE JUDGES A CASE HE SHOULD USE THE UNCORRUPTED QURAN WITHOUT INVOLVING ANY OTHER TEACHINGS THAT CONFUSE !

2.Abraham was never given Isaac as a reward the Quran clearly states that After Abraham left his people Isaac was given to him and after that he grew with him and was sacrificed,Abraham prayed to his lord for another child especially to please a old barren women who suffered with him for a long time.. and if you read arabic you can clearly say that Abraham said 037.100 YUSUFALI: "O my Lord! Grant me a righteous (son)!" and the Quran uses the arabic word Hab meaning give me .. and then in other accounts say WE GAVE ABRAHAM ISAAC AND JACOB

019.049 YUSUFALI: When he had turned away from them and from those whom they worshipped besides Allah,

We bestowed on him Isaac and Jacob, and each one of them We made a prophet. by using the word WAHABNA meaning we gave .. so clearly thise verse is talking about the birth of Isaac and then Isaac growing and then being sacrificed .. Just because the verse after that says 037.112 YUSUFALI: And We gave him the good news of Isaac - a prophet,- one of the Righteous. doesnt mean that the sacrifice happened before Isaac .. the Quran didnt say "AND THEN" it just said "and" .. in Arabic it says WA meaning "and" it didnt say FA meaning and then

The Quran describes itself clearly .. After Abraham left he was given Isaac because he wanted a child and when that child grew with him he sacrificed him

It isnt Ishmael because Abraham didnt stay in Mecca he clearly left him when he was a kid

014.037 YUSUFALI: "O our Lord! I have made some of my offspring to dwell in a valley without cultivation, by Thy Sacred House; in order, O our Lord, that they may establish regular Prayer: so fill the hearts of some among men with love towards them, and feed them with fruits: so that they may give thanks.

and then Abraham came up to Mecca to build the Kaaba later on when Ishmael grew alone .. the Quran states that when the child of sacfirice grew with Abraham ... ISHMAEL DIDNT GROW WITH ABRAHAM ISHMAEL WAS LEFT WHEN HE WAS A CHILD AND THEN ABRAHAM CAME UP TO ISHMAEL WHEN ISHMAEL HAD GROWN OLD "ALONE" AND WAS STRONG ENOUGH TO BUILD THE KAABA

so according to Quran the child which was given as good news by the angels that is Isaac

so accordint to the Quran the child that was given by the angels as good news when Abraham left his people and prayed for a kid that is Isaac

so according to the Quran the child that lived and grew with his father and his father stayed with him that is Isaac

It cant be Ishmael because then there would be a contridiction in the Quran WHICH IS NEVER THERE

According to you you state that the burning of Abraham happened in a diffrent account to him leaving his people but let me prove to you why that cant be true

the burning of Abraham and him leaving his people is one incident followed by the Birth of Isaac

019.042 YUSUFALI: Behold, he said to his father: "O my father! why worship that which heareth not and seeth not, and can profit thee nothing?

you can see here that his father is mentioned alongisde hime but there is no mention of fire .true but wait

.......

019.048 YUSUFALI: "And I will turn away from you (all) and from those whom ye invoke besides Allah: I will call on my Lord: perhaps, by my prayer to my Lord, I shall be not unblest."

019.049 YUSUFALI: When he had turned away from them and from those whom they worshipped besides Allah, We bestowed on him Isaac and Jacob, and each one of them We made a prophet.

.................. 037.085 YUSUFALI: Behold! he said to his father and to his people, "What is that which ye worship?

037.097 YUSUFALI: They said, "Build him a furnace, and throw him into the blazing fire!"

037.099 YUSUFALI: He said: "I will go to my Lord! He will surely guide me!

after they wanted to burn him and HIS FATHER WAS THERE he left and then when he left he was given Isaac ITS THE SAME STORY BUT SAID IN DETAIL MORE IN ONE SURA OTHER THAN THE OTHER SURA the Quran ansewrs itself clearly

019.049 YUSUFALI: When he had turned away from them and from those whom they worshipped besides Allah, We bestowed on him Isaac and Jacob, and each one of them We made a prophet.

037.102 YUSUFALI: Then, when (the son) reached (the age of) (serious) work with him, he said: "O my son! I see in vision that I offer thee in sacrifice: Now see what is thy view!" (The son) said: "O my father! Do as thou art commanded: thou will find me, if Allah so wills one practising Patience and Constancy!"

here is the story again this time INCLUDING THE FIRE AND HIS FATHER SO CLEARLY THE QURAN STATES THAT ABRAHAM PRECHED TO HIS FATHER AND HIS PEOPLE AND WAS THEN BURNED AND THEN LEFT AND WAS THEN GIVEN ISAAC AND THEN SACRIFICED THIS CHILD

simple .. and then when Ishmael grew old and strong Abraham went again to Mecca to build the Kaaba with THE CHILD WOM GREW UP ALONE NOT WITH HIS FATHER! Highdeeboy (talk) 09:31, 6 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Please read the reliable source guidelines - they do not include exegesis as an option. ALSO, TYPING IN ALL CAPS IS LIKE SHOUTING ON THE INTERNET. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ian.thomson  (talk • contribs) 17:34, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

I didnt edit or change a thing I just repasted the article this time with Links to make it easier for people to visit these links while readingMoodswingster (talk) 12:28, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry but i have to edit the one on sacrifice. It is not only biased but against islamic traditions. Please bear in mind the title is Islamic views of Abraham (Ibrahim) and in the islam topic. Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.19.197.30 (talk) 10:15, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

According to Islamic sources, it is Ismail that was to be sacrifice. One of the rites in the Islamic pilgrimage or Hajj is to commemorate the event. Not only the above is misleading and against the Islamic tradition. It is using the Glorious Quran to wrongly interpret what seems to be a biased view. And it is selectively interpreting from the Quran to suit the authors own views. In Islam there are two sources for verication which is the Quran and Hadith of Prophet Muhammad. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.75.176.45 (talk) 10:31, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Merge ?
No I disagree Islamic view of Abraham is different, and merge would confuse the reader. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Paul Lewison (talk • contribs) 05:51, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Final Merge Request

 * This article needs to be merged with the Abraham article.


 * There aren't a lot of independent sources for this article to stand on its own.
 * Judaic and Christian views of Abraham do not have their own separate articles.
 * This article violates the duplicate rationale.
 * This article violates the overlap rationale.


 * -- CABEGOD 04:25, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

Questioning part of the "father of Abraham" section
Section Islamic_view_of_Abraham states:
 * Some Sunni Muslims &mdash; like Jews &mdash; believe that Azar, who was an idol-maker, was the father of Abraham and some Sunnis and Shias believe that Tarakh was his father and Azar was Abraham's uncle.

I can't comment on the bulk of this statement, but the parenthetical "like Jews," is not correct. The foundation source for Jewish commentary is the Genesis text, in which Abraham's father is referred to only as Terah, as in the link given above: Tarakh. Because I do not know what Muslim commentators may add --- what justification there might be within that community for the claim about Jews' beliefs --- I've not changed the article. Someone who can correctly handle the rest of this claim about Shia and Sunni Muslims' beliefs should edit the whole statement, and then either delete "like Jews" or offer whatever citation, presumably from within Muslim tradition, supports that claim. —Preceding unsigned comment added by PGoldenberg (talk • contribs) 01:33, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

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According to the article, "One thing of note is that the name of the son is not given in the Qur'an, but most accept that it was Ishmael because the following passages discuss the birth of Issac." In the Bible, Abraham is told to sacrifice his son Isaac. So (unless the Qur'an is in chronological order), wouldn't Isaac be the son Abraham was about to sacrifice? — Preceding unsigned comment added by HoworHow (talk • contribs) 22:32, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

I accidentally hit the save button before adding my signature last time, and I thought I caught myself, but I guess I didn't. HoworHow 22:35, 8 April 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by HoworHow (talk • contribs)

Messenger (Rasul) Abraham
a Messenger is a prophet that God sends to reveal a holy book such as the Qur'an, Holy Bible, or the Torah. As per,  Ibrahim (Abraham) was a messenger rasul to whom a holy book was revealed. Many prophets (e.g. Zakariya) was not a rasul but was a Nabi. There is difference between nabi & rasul in Islam. As it is a factually correct data, I'm adding the word rasul, so as to remove confusion with the word messenger. »  nafSadh did say 07:20, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Ok, but I suggest that you write an article on what "messenger" means in Islam, and make this article link to it. (Because to non-Muslims, "messenger" doesn't mean anything much at all).PiCo (talk) 09:48, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I suggest that you write an article on what "messenger" means in Islam - already there! see Messenger, better is Rasul
 * Messenger is confusing, even Apostle may be. So, I've used rasul here; wikilinked, so anyone can go to the relevant article. »  nafSadh did say 09:57, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Very funny, but true. It's nice to get a good smile before I head to bed. The biblical cannons actually don't clarify its books, so many don't know that Moses and Abraham were messengers (each holding a divined book). Genesis is mostly a mix between the Book of God and the Scrolls of Abraham, as described by the Qur'an. Here's a nice list of each messenger and their divined book, although, I think someone recently messed it up :p. Prophets_of_Islam.     ~ AdvertAdam   talk  05:57, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

Requested move discussion
There is a discussion relevant to this article at Talk:Ibrahim (disambiguation). --NSH001 (talk) 06:48, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

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hello if this is in category islamic views on Abraham then please delete the Photo left form 1850. In Islam picturing of prophets is forbidden. so this is unislamic and not islamic views on abraham pleas fix thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.154.221.0 (talk) 21:30, 24 October 2012 (UTC)