Talk:Abrar-ul-Haq/Archive 1

Untitled
The second paragraph makes no sense to me. Somebody, please make it make sense. --Kelly Martin 20:08, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)

it makes sense but he doesn't word it properly. i didn't figure it out but because i went to abrar's concert..it makes sense. something about the donations abrar does..well somebody who knows more about it has gotta fix it up..-samisab

I know nothing about the subject, but I think it's an OK stub now. Katefan0 20:04, Jan 14, 2005 (UTC)

Added Gurmukhi
Okay, I've added Gurmukhi in addition to Shahmukhi because Abrar-ul-Haq is popular throughout the Punjab region and is not restricted to Pakistani Punjab. Now if there is a particular objection to this, please state it below before reverting. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 09:25, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

No one in pakistan use this "shahmukhi" term. The urdu script is simply called urdu script and we say that punjabi is written in urdu script or more technically persio-arabic script. So please keep your sikh terms away from pakistani pages as they are not understood and used by common pakistanis.

Abrar is Pakistani
Using Gurmukhi implies that he can read and write Gurmukhi and he blongs to India. Such implications are not acceptible provided that he is Pakistani, extremely patriotic and he cannot read, write Gurmukhi script. In addition he speaks different punjabi which is actually a Pakistani blend of Urdu and Punjabi; quite different from Indian punjabi (I know because I speak same punjabi as Abrar).

In addition, his name is basically Arabic and there is no point writing an Arabic/Urdu name in Indian Punjabi Gurmukhi on English Wikipedia.

Szhaider 14:35, 7 July 2006 (UTC)


 * It certainly doesn't imply anything - the article clearly states he is Pakistani. I doubt the Punjabi he speaks is very different from that across the border.  The Punjabi in Lahore and Amritsar is the *same* dialect (Majhi).


 * My reasoning was that he represents a cross-border star, and indeed represents Punjabi culture as a whole rather than merely Pakistani Punjabi culture. But, if you still insist, you are welcome to remove it, I won't object. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 14:41, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

You are absolutely wrong when you say punjabi spoken in lahore and amritsar is same. Just travel to lahore and its surrounding areas like gujranwala, sheikhupura, okara and kasur and then go back to your amritsar. You will feel the difference. Lahori punjabi is much more similar to sheikhupura and gujranwala punjabi. A number of muslim migrant who have come from amritsar can readily be identified among lahoris. Native lahoris accent is like the accent of gujranwala and sheikhupura. We actually laugh at the accent of amritsari muslim migrants which is very different from ours lahoris. Also if you want to learn more abut lahoris punjabi and its difference from the amritsari punjabi, just read the poetic work of Shah Hussain Lahori (16th century lahori punjabi poet) and face the music. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.58.115.25 (talk) 16:54, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Clarification
Abrar spent most of his childhood in Gujrat city of Punjab (Pakistan). The Punjabi of Gujrat is very different from that of Lahore. Gujrat Dialect of Punjabi is considered much closer to Urdu than any other dialect as it contains a host of Urdu, Persian and Arabic words. Szhaider 09:21, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Can't say I've been to Gujrat myself to confirm this. However, Punjabi itself has many many words for Perso-Arabic origin.  They might be pronounced differently, but they're still there.  Also, Gujrat does seem to fall very much in the Punjabi speaking region of Punjab. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 10:58, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Its funny how little Pakistani Punjabis know about the Punjabi language. Especially, the second generation raised on a steady dose of Urdufied Punjabi since 1947. Indian Punjabi has also been Sanskritized but retains more original punjabi words and is taught and used as an official language so there is less confusion. Pakistani Punjabi's knowledge of Punjabi comes from songs and movies, as the majority reads, writes and converses in Urdu. If you read Punjabi of Sheikh Farid, Damodar, Bulleh Shah and Waris it is much closer to the Indian version less the obvious snaskritized words that are common today, while in Pakistani Punjabi even the words that have a substitue in Punjabi have been replaced by Urdu words. Punjabi already contains a lot of Perso-Arabic words because of historical contacts. The remote rural areas of Pakistani Punjab do retain the original language complete with idioms and traditional Punjabi words, but this is also being lost. As i listen to the Punjabi that my genration speaks in the cities compared to what my grandparents spoke in their village, it amazes me how much linguistic richness is being lost to mass media driven changes and outside influences. Punjabi, 15:03 pm March 12, 2003 (UTC)

Talk instead of revert-warring
Please resolve your differences through talking instead of revert-warring. Many thanks. --WinHunter (talk) 14:15, 8 September 2006 (UTC)


 * In regards to Szhaider's point: "What is it that you have against Urdu? If you want remove Urdu from this article remove it from all articles about Pakistanis."


 * I have nothing against Urdu. However, you seem to have something against labelling his name as "Punjabi".  My point is, that you object to it be labelled as Punjabi because it's not a Punjabi language name - but it's not an Urdu language name EITHER, it's actually Arabic.  The fact that his mother tongue is Punjabi and he is a PUNJABI SINGER, would suggest that his name is just as much Punjabi as it is Urdu.  Hence, either label it as such, OR drop the label entirely because it's misleading. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 17:15, 9 September 2006 (UTC)


 * It is a baseless point emerged from Punjabi nationalism and FYI Abrar is no punjabi nationalist and all legal document of Abrar's nationality consider his name to be Urdu. So it's a legal thing. Szhaider 19:07, 9 September 2006 (UTC)


 * My point emerges from Punjabi nationalism? Right...  And I presume you have seen Abrar's legal documents then?  They must have a field that says "Urdu Name".  So, if I were to take Pakistani nationality and were to write my name in Arabic script, would it become Urdu? NO!  Your point is what is baseless, not mine. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 19:24, 9 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Now you are losing your cool. I am a Pakistani nationalist, I admit and as Pakistani ‎citizen, I know the laws and legal status of Pakistani citizenship. I don't need Abrar's ‎personal documents. In Pakistan, National Identity Card (most important document to ‎prove one's Pakistani citizenship) explicitly requires citizen's name in Urdu. If you were to take Pakistani citizenship, you would have to provide your name in Urdu. Szhaider 09:10, 10 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Are you sure you're not getting confused with the notion of Urdu script (Perso-Arabic Nastaliq) and the Urdu language? It's absurd and frankly stupid to ask for a name in a particular language, when names are often not linked to language.


 * So you are saying that if I were to take Pakistani citizenship and I were to write "George" in Nastaliq, it would automatically become Urdu? Gimmie a break.  Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 20:50, 10 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, I told you waht you wanted to know. You have to accept some things in other countries whether you like them or not. If you want to discuss linguistics then its my favourite topic. By the way, Urdu font on Wikipedia is not Nastaliq, but a horrible form of Naskh introduced by Microsoft. In addition, Arabic is not written in Nastaliq. Urdu, Punjabi, Persian and almost all of Pakistani regional languages are written in this font. Szhaider 22:14, 10 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, thanks I'm aware of the distinction between Naskh and Nastaliq fonts. If your main concern all this time has been that the current form doesn't represent Nastaliq properly, you do realise there are better ways of fixing that then simply trying to make it bold?  Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 00:15, 17 September 2006 (UTC)


 * You are simply refusing to understand and making it a problem of your ego. Szhaider 04:40, 18 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Replying with comments like "[you're] making it a problem of your ego." really doesn't get to addressing the issue does it? Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 08:11, 18 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Any kind of discussion with you has proved itself useless considering your insistence that you are always right no matter what. So what's the point of discussion? I know what you'll say and do. You have started an edit war which is not doing any good to Wikipedia. Then what's the objective? I already told you. Szhaider 13:05, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Punjabi scripts
I have added the Punjabi scripts for Abrar-ul-Haq. I feel this is best as he is a popular singer in the whole Punjab region. Abrar-ul-Haq is also a Punjabi by ethnicity and sings primarily in the Punjabi language. Please discuss here before reverting my changes. Thanks! AnupamTalk 20:31, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks for adding the Gurmukhi script, since it can be relevant here. It would be best however, to check the spelling with a native Punjabi speaker, since I couldn't find any results on Google. Thanks.  Mar de Sin   Talk to me!  23:25, 18 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Popularity is no claim. He belongs to Pakistan and his name in Gurmukhi is outrageously misleading info. In Pakistan, Gurmukhi is considered Hindi, because nobody reads it. Szhaider 03:35, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
 * PS: There are other Paki Celebs who are more famous in India than Abrar-ul-Haq. Is it justified to add Hindi script for those celebs? Szhaider 03:43, 19 September 2006 (UTC)


 * You're very ignorant when it comes to scripts. Why is Gurmukhi (a script) considered Hindi (a language)?  Are all Pakistanis so ignorant?  I sincerely hope not.  You could say Gurmukhi is considered the same as Devanagari (both scripts) or that Punjabi is considered the same as Hindi/Urdu (both languages).  Either way, you'd be plain WRONG. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 08:09, 19 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I meant Hindi script. Plain and simple. I did not remember how to spell Devanagari so I did not use this word. Most Pakistanis cannot differentiate between Devanagari (Hindi script) and Gurmukhi (Punjabi script) and it is not considered ignorence. (And shouting is not polite. When you knew what I meant why would you shout. And do not use personal attacks. "Are all Pakistanis so ignorant?" It's a personal attack and I protest.) Being popular in Indian Punjab is no excuse for adding Gurmukhi. It provides a very convinient excuse for adding Urdu (MS based Naskh, Naskh, Nastaliq etc.) to all of popular Indian actors and proclaiming thier names Urdu because most of them are crazily popular among Pakistani youth. Szhaider 11:58, 19 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Do you speak for most Pakistanis now? Why does it matter whether Pakistanis can distinguish between either Devanagari or Gurmukhi?  "It's a personal attack and I protest." protest all you like - if you cannot distinguish between a personal attack and a response to your comment "In Pakistan, Gurmukhi is considered Hindi, because nobody reads it." then that again is your own problem.


 * Anyway, in case you hadn't noticed, I don't disagree with your rationale for removing Gurmukhi. That's why I never inserted it.  However, you know what I disagree with and unless you have anything further to add, please, be quiet.  I think it's time to remove Urdu from many Bollywood films/actors unless there is a direct link to Islam/Pakistan.  We'd have to be fair across the board now wouldn't we? Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 12:45, 19 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I have no interest, whatsoever, in Bollywood celebs. It would be a favour for me if you remove Urdu from articles about them. I haven't even opened any articles related to them that's why I do not know if they have Urdu script in them. Thanks for agreeing with me about Gurmukhi. Szhaider 13:02, 19 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I can say taht as a Hindi speaker/reader, I cannot read Punjabi at all. To a Hindi speaker, the letters are all jumbled and stuff. There is a wide difference between nagari and gurumukhi.Bakaman Bakatalk 02:09, 21 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I think you should put the script in. If bollywood has urdu, then this should have punjabi.--D-Boy 08:31, 29 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I have already told you, keep or remove Urdu scripts from bollywood articles. I don't care. FYI, most of them are completely wrong. I checked out of curiosity and found most of them laughably wrong. I never fixed any. Because I don't care. If you ask my personal opinion, I think nobody from Pakistan cares about Urdu in those article. It was Rama's Arrow, an Indian, not a Pakistani who added most of those scripts. Therefore, you should discuss this problem with your indian friends and stop seeking revenge from Pakistan related articles. You can go ahead and remove all Urdu from Indian articles and I couldn't care less. Szhaider 19:16, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Gurmukhi comes from the ancient Takri script that originated in Punjab/Kashmir region between 5th and 8th centuries. Its very different from the Devnagri script used for Hindi, in essence gurmukhi/takri is the original script for Punjabi language. Szhaider is creating controversy on a misconcieved notion. 17:16, 12, March 2006 (UTC)

Whereever gurmukhi script comes, who cares , at least pakistanis do not. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.58.115.25 (talk) 17:07, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

2 reverts
I have reverted this article twice within one minute and here is the reason.

Someone from IP address 82.23.221.42 had vandalised this article. Due to overlap of popups, I reverted to Triona's last edit which wasn't the latest. Later, after realising my mistake, I reverted the article again and this time to Anupam's last edit. I might revert this article again within 24 hours if vandalised again. I hope it won't triger 3RR rule again. Szhaider 19:04, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Musical collaborations
Citations are needed for Musical collaborations section. If credible references are not provided, this section will be deleted in next 12 hours. Szhaider 21:28, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Hello Szhaider. Thanks for trying to keep this article referenced. I found two references discussing the material presenting the Musical collaborations section. As a result, I readded the material and the references I found. I hope this helps! Thanks, AnupamTalk 22:55, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Aboutme img.jpg
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