Talk:Abu Ayyub al-Masri

Untitled
I think the merge should be put on hold as there is information that al Muahjir is actually a Libyan (or possibly a Yemeni) and has been described as a devotee to Shari'a law. There is reliable information that Abu al Masri is an explosives expert and actually trained others in the use of explosives in Afghanistan whereas the information I have seen about al Muhajer mentions nothing about explosives and concentrates more on his idealogical interests and his role in the indoctrination of new members. Already there are reports emanating from US authorities which are merging this information into one character.

al-Muhajir
The US Military has identified al-Muhajir as al-Masri. I have stated this in the article, but at this stage in time I feel it's a bit early to merge the articles. Just because the US says so.... - Dark Prime, June 17th 2006 ---merge--then edit...

Merge
The stories I've seen so far are "This is who the CIA thinks he really is." It should be mentioned, but I'd wait a few days before merging. --Falcorian (talk) 17:13, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

The DOD refers to him as al-Masri, so the other article should be merged into this one, as to streamline things. (Tofumatt 20:46, 15 June 2006 (UTC))
 * Could you provide a source? I, again, have only seen news reports saying "The US says it probably likely is". --Falcorian (talk) 20:51, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Merging these articles in inappropriate because it is merely a hypothesis that al-Muhajir is an alias for al-Masri. This sentence is appropriate: "Abu Hamza al-Muhajir, recently named as Zarqawi's successor as leader of the organization, may be an alias that refers to al-Masri.". That statement is based on this reference, which says "Some analysts say Muhajir may be a nom de guerre for Egyptian militant Abu Ayyub al-Masri".  The source cited does not state that they are definitely the same person. (Sobesurfski 21:38, 15 June 2006 (UTC))
 * Furthermore, the succession boxes should not name al-Masri as the present leader of al-Qaeda in Iraq. - Dark Prime, 16 June 2006


 * I'm going to insert a merge tag, because it has been suggested. That doesn't mean it will be merged, just that a significant dialogue is going on about that possibility. --65.96.200.120 16:35, 18 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Shouldn't be merged, as there's no evidence beyond the US thinking that the two might be one and the same. Penguin22 20:34, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

The Pender Reference
I suggest removal of Sam Pender's supposed pre-Bush timeline of Al-Qaeda ties to Iraq, mostly due to the irrelevence of said chronolgy to al-Masri. Additionally, the subject matter of the source does not even fulfill its aim (pre-Bush Al-Qaeda ties to Iraq). In short, I cannot see citation of the source as meeting Wikipedia's quality standards.

Term "Military Service"
From Wikipedia's own page defining what a military is- "A military is a heavily-armed, highly organized force primarily intended for warfare, also known collectively as armed forces. It is typically officially authorized and maintained by a sovereign state, with its members identifiable by their distinct military uniform. It may consist of one or more military branches such as an Army, Navy, Air Force and in certain countries, Marines and Coast Guard. The main task of the military is usually defined as defense of the state and its interests against external armed threats." This person was an illegal combatant who did not serve in any military nor represent any nation, nor did he wear a uniform or insignia, nor did he earn any rank, nor meet the definition of a military service member by the Hague of Geneva conventions or by any legal or traditional definition. All reference to "Military service" should be removed, not only from this page, but also from the pages of of Bin Laden, Baghdadi, and all terrorist leaders. 24.246.101.2 (talk) 14:35, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

al-Masri Dead?
Reportedly so: Minutiaman 08:16, 5 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Yep. Other news around the world are reporting the same. He was killed by an USA air strike, along with 3 of its aides. --Pinnecco 09:10, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Apparently, he's not dead.
 * Agreed. Just saw it as well. I guess that noe ven Reuters is a reliable source of news after all :) --Pinnecco 11:51, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Oh, wait... he's dead again. Fox News is reporting that the US Military confirms his death again.67.100.218.210 (talk) 15:21, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Yep. He's finally been confirmed dead. Article edited accordingly. TheLarrikin (talk) 15:37, 9 April 2008 (UTC)


 * You've got the wrong Abu al-Masri. The reports are referring to this guy. Cheers, CP 16:05, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Claim about being in jail in Egypt
I would omit all mention of this silly and disproven claim, which seems to have been a publicity stunt by the Egyptian lawyer who first made it, promptly lapped up by al-Jazeera.

LDH 05:26, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I axed that b.s.

Abu Hamza al-Muhajir is a rampaging butcher and one of the most wanted criminals in the world. This article is not the place to be copying and pasting rumours and speculation about him that come from reckless journalists and incompetent bloggers. This is not Usenet.

LDH 04:37, 18 March 2007 (UTC)


 * The source is named and what is being claimed is named. Inclusion in wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. It can be verified that such a person said so and so. --Lft6771 19:06, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes they said such-and-such, 95% percent of which has been disproved. The article even quotes Yassir al-Sirri! Does anybody here (besides me) know who that is? As usual, his stuff is false. I'm going to repair this piece. LDH 12:19, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Follow wikipedia guidlines- WP:NOR. Also there is no mention of that name (Sirri) in this article Search on that page produces no matches for that name. --Lft6771 07:41, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
 * "Islamic Observation Center" is Yassir al-Sirri. That so-called organization has no members except al-Sirri. He's the former propaganda boss of Egyptian Islamic Jihad. But you've never heard of him. On the other hand, you've heard of a lawyer in Egypt who says that Abu Ayyub al-Masri is in jail in Egypt, so you plop that in to this article. Now order me to follow guidelines. Call me a vandal. Look at this article now, Lft6771. A child could do a better job.

LDH 08:06, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Tired of waiting in vain, I restored the 4 April 2007 version, which has many improvements over the incompetent June 2006 version. (BTW the guy who started the false rumour about Abu Ayyub being in jail in Egypt, namely Mamdouh Ismail, is in the news again.) LDH 05:21, 9 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Would you like to do a short article on al-Sirri and the IOC? It would benefit this article, because documenting the "track record" and general slant of sources is invaluable for the dedicated analyst. You seem to be at least far more knowledgeable than me. Dysmorodrepanis 17:36, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Merge, it's same guy as Abu Hamza al-Muhajir
Not even al-Qaeda denies it. And I did merge the two pieces a while ago. But somebody here at Wiki insists on using the article Abu Hamza al-Muhajir for no purpose except to commemorate a false rumour started in June 2006 by Mamdouh Ismail. See above for the same problem that I had with another Wiki user, Lft6771. LDH 07:20, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree, merge it... considering how the news media, officials and insurgents always identify the two names with him, it's totally pointless to have two separate articles. Ever heard of something called an alias or nom de guerre? Look, if it's necessary, there can be a section which covers the name mixup. - Prezboy1 20:17, 1 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Can we now merge it already? Maybe as per my suggestion below (i.e., merge but maintain the aliases as distinct section and record & track their use)? That should satisfy everyone.
 * I still have not found any one source that proves that they are different persons.
 * The best theory I can come up with is that "al-Masri" is a simple alias name... "al-Masri"s there are many. It's like Henry Kissinger, whose family name means "person from Bad Kissingen", where an ancestor of his once had settled down. See also Khalid El-Masri and Khalid al-Masri.
 * "al-Muhajir" seems a dedicated nom de guerre OTOH: it has a religious-cultural significance, it is not a common (or even "normal" I think) personal name in Arabic (as elsewhere, Leendert van der Vlugt nonwithstanding). So "al-Masri" is simply an Arabic version of John Q. Public. The names are both aliases, but I get the impression that they are different kinds of aliases. E.g. you'd have a fake ID or passport as "al-Masri" maybe, but certainly not as "al-Muhajir". The former is (or used to be) useful for daily undercover life, the latter is useful for propaganda broadcasts. Which is probably why it is used by the ISI exclusively. Dysmorodrepanis 04:00, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Dead...for real?
http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSL0169719520070501

Just reporting, do what you will with this piece. Blue Mirage | Comment 08:48, 1 May 2007 (UTC)


 * What difference does it make to Wikipedia hacks whether he is alive or dead? Mamdouh Ismail says Abu Ayyub is in jail in Egypt. Yasr al-Sirri says Abu Ayyub doesn't exist. To Wikipedia it is all the same. 154.5.16.4 09:42, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Your point is? Blue Mirage | Comment 21:31, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

DEATH IS UNCONFIRMED
(http://oxiderules.proboards84.com/) Iraqi officials have claimed he's dead before. Even they admit they can't confirm right now. In the interest of accuracy, nothing should be said of his "death" on wikipedia until it's confirmed through either DNA testing or a US official.--65.96.203.131 10:53, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Nothing confirmed by the US military yet or Iraqi government officials. DragonFire1024 12:23, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
 * As if the US military were a reliable source. Look how many times they've wrongly proclaimed al-Zarqawi's death, look at Jessica Lynch, etc. Not the source, the weight of evidence (of which the source is just one piece among many) should be what counts. As noted below, odds are we won't hear his buddies mention him ever again if he's dead. As the supposed body seems untraceable as of now, this might be useful.
 * A note on DNA testing: you need an unequivocal relative for that. In this case, fairly tough chance. Dental records, ditto. BTW dental records are more reliable than DNA fungerprinting in clan-based societies as dental work is truly unique, while DNA fingerprints may be shared among members of a clan. That's why the US always tried to use both techniques e.g. in the case of Saddam and his sons. Dysmorodrepanis 17:33, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
 * CNN: "Unconfirmed reports that al Qaeda in Iraq leader Abu Ayyub al-Masri has been killed come from local tribes and not Iraq's intelligence services or military, an Iraqi government spokesman said Tuesday". Should probably pull off the death for now, these kinds of reports usually turn ut to be wrong. 83.233.182.99 12:44, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
 * BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- Unconfirmed reports that al Qaeda in Iraq leader Abu Ayyub al-Masri has been killed come from local tribes and not Iraq's intelligence services or military, an Iraqi government spokesman said Tuesday. (So, if the rumour is proven false, Baghdad can blame it on the tribals. But even if the rumour is proven false, it will still appear in this Wiki article, along with the lies of Yasr al-Sirri and Mamdouh Ismail. As long as a falsehood appears in a newspaper, some Wiki writers regard it as "valid" and "verifiable".) 154.5.16.4 12:53, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes "valid". As in "valid fact, citable and sourcable, that this-and-this source has in that-and-that situation spouted bullshit". I find such knowledge valuable beyond belief. Knowing reliability pattern of sources is nothing any good analyst should go without.
 * In this case, the source is rather unreliable. Basically nobody puts great trust in the al-Maliki government anymore these days, neither G.W. Bush nor the average Hassan on the streets of Baghdad. And yes, "Sunni tribesmen" are of course excellently deniable. But there is no point for even the most lying-through-its-teeth source to hide the truth if the truth would benefit them. As May 3 goes by, at latest, I think we'll be able to say something definite on the matter. Washington stays mum, but then, wouldn't they? They'll release something usable later this day. Dysmorodrepanis 04:54, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

We seem to be getting closer. Seems the Iraqi Disinformation (err Interior) Ministry has gotten al-Masri and al-Baghdadi (which they claimed was the guy killed after the al-Masri link went stale) confused with Muharib Abdul-Latif al-Jubouri who was something like the head of the AQI press office. It seems the latter guy is actually and truly dead; the Coalition seemed pretty confident about it. If they stick to that for the next 24 hours or so, at latest, I think it can be considered confirmed for the time being. Dysmorodrepanis 19:04, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I wonder if this guy who does seem to have been killed is the same as Abu Bakr al-Jabouri who is the Islamic State of Iraq's "public relations minister". As AQI seems to have played a significant role in setting up the ISI "shadow gov't" and as the jobs linked to these names are essentially the same, it is possible. Jabouri = Jubouri is a simple transcription thing. And again, we have an "Abu" moniker, which is however a rather common Arabic nickname in this case... in Texas they'd probably translate it as "cattle-baron" :) Dysmorodrepanis 19:12, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
 * It seems I was correct on both counts. ISI has apparently confirmed the death of their press honcho. Dysmorodrepanis 20:14, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

I reading up that he's dead too on sources from military. Wonder which is right, dead or not, I guess the same is said about Bin LadenThe Cleveland Browns are awesome! 18:28, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Don't Merge

 * Article should not be merged. You can't be the father of two different eldest sons. Also, the group Islamic State of Iraq uses the name al-Muhajir and never mentioned al-Masri. It is only U.S. officials who try to assert that they are the same person and they are not credible because it benefits their PR campaign to promote this story regardless of the truth. -TruthSeeker777 18:01, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Both names are aliases. The point of an alias is to conceal one's identity, not to reveal the name of one's kid. They are the same person and nobody denies it except a few Wikipedia cranks. 64.180.164.162 04:29, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
 * How do you know the names are aliases? Nobody says they are the father of a certain eldest son if they are not, or are you saying they are liars. Prove that they are the same person or are you one of those people who just simply accept assertions without proof. Muhajir was announced to be leader of Qaida al Jihad in a posting on an unnamed website according to a news article. U.S. officials stated that Masri was the new leader. To cover the contradictions they allege the two are the same person. You have no right to speak for anybody but yourself, because I doubt you went around and asked anybody if they dispute it. (especially Iraqis) -Lft6771 16:52, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Please don't write on subjects you know nothing about. "al-muhajir" means "the migrant" and "al-masri" means "the Egytian". And you assume those names are real? It should come as no surprise that a serial mass murderer is also a liar. Gawd. 154.5.16.4 02:49, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Not any more of a liar than was Dino Paul Crocetti. Dysmorodrepanis 18:37, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
 * The names are obviously aliases because they are not proper Arabic names. They are honorific titles. See Ayman al-Zawahiri who has a shiteload of these. This "Abu" thing may literally mean "father of [insert name of IIRC firstborn son here]", but it also can mean something as when Westerners would say "Uncle" but with a different connotation... more like "mentor of", as in "Abu Mujahid". There was a veteran insurgent back in 2003/04 calling hinself "Abu Freedom". Dysmorodrepanis 18:33, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Whatever. I have also been following this, but still I'd advocate a merge, because one article is going on good and the other is unbelievably crappy. Both have much duplicate info, as they desal with the same entity. If you're not a Close Personal Friend of these guy(s), one honestly cannot tell whether it's 1 or 2 or them. The articles should be fused and this here article should get a section discussing the issue of the 2 aliases. They're not as straightforward as the al-Baghdadi thing (think of the "Abu" stuff as we'd say "Uncle ..."). "The Egyptian" vs "The Immigrant" may be synonymous, may not be synonymous, or may deliberate deception.
 * I have only dug up a German news source quick'n'dirty on the ISI press release. Maybe you could find an English one and change that. Also, maybe check who exactly reported his death in Haditha (in error, as we know) last year.
 * Mr. TELUS Communications, please don't call people names just so. Did you do the research? Did you check which Arabic source used which alias when? The 2 aliases synonymized there do have different connotations, but the fact that they are nowadays usally translated and pondered over by sundry individuals and agencies has certainly not been lost on the guys who invent these monikers.
 * We should try and dig up the ISI statement of May 1. This should be the best source explicitly stating Masri = Muhajid, if it indeed does (what does it say?).
 * For the record, once these guys are dead, they stay dead. No one of his core of fighters has ever spoken of Zarqawi again once he was dead. BTW the Silence of the Osama is intriguing. Been a while, no? Dysmorodrepanis 04:44, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Not the first time and not surprising. This way next time he does say something people will make a bigger fuss unlike before he shut up where it was mostly a case of another Osama video, yawn... Nil Einne 08:02, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes the first time for such a long time (nearly a year, or did I miss something?), especially with the US ---> <--- that close to calling Iraq a "defeat". But enough of that. Dysmorodrepanis 13:51, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

I still think that for the sake of consistency, the articles should be merged. They are very painful to maintain in the present state. BUT it should be denoted what refers to which name. Should be tracked too. Eg I am fairly certain that the ISI has never referred to its "minister of war" as al-Masri but only al-Muhajir. But I have also no knowledge of both al-Masri and al-Muhajir being used at the same opportunity for 2 different persons. Dysmorodrepanis 21:31, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Deletion
Following paragraph was deleted because it contains incorrect or outdated information.

"Terror consultant Evan Kohlmann said he has never heard of Muhajir. “This individual has never before been featured in any piece of al-Qaeda propaganda, be it video, audio or text communiqué,” he said. “To my knowledge, he has never been cited publicly by the U.S. military or the Multinational Forces in Iraq as a major figure in al-Zarqawi’s network.” "

In a post from his blog Evan Kohlmann said that Al Qaida confirms in a formal statement that al-Muhajir is a member of its organization.

Alexis Debat, a reliable source?
Alexis Debat's credibility has been discussed, in particular after having made a false interview of Barack Obama in the magazine Politique internationale. See Une fausse interview d'Obama dans Politique internationale by Pascal Riché in Rue 89. I am therefore removing him as he is not a reliable source for Wikipedia. Tazmaniacs 11:54, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Maybe premature. This article has basically ZERO reliable sources (see the claims about his death thing). And for once, Debat might just as well have been right here. At least his theory doesn't outright conflict with the scant facts that are known (if you consider that "being in command" for the AQI folks does not mean a simgle centralized command). Perhaps revert and add something like "Alexis Debar (whose reliability is questionable, see [link]) has claimed..." We simply cannot judge Debat's reliability in this matter, only his overall quality as a source.
 * On the same grounds, you can basically delete the entire article. Few if any statements in it are backed by sources that are "reliable", if not in general, then in the context of the article (the US DoD is certainly not a "reliable source" when it comes to Iraq matters either, and the "reliability" of AQI/ISI statements is best not commented upon at all...). Dysmorodrepanis 13:19, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Ok
hello all..i will merge it SOON..--O.waqfi (talk) 13:57, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, absolutely! See my remarks at the end of "Don't Merge" above. It is necessary to straighten out this thing... for example, in the May 8, 2008 "arrest" ?canard (as it seems) the arrested's "name" was explicitly given as Abu Hamza al-Muhajir. Makes you wonder why more than one person would actually adopt such a nickname...
 * So when merging, take care to build 2 sections: one detailing incidents in which "al-Masri" was explicitly named - ideally by primary sources -, and one where al-Muhajir was explicitly named.
 * Note that US military sources seem to use either name when referring to a single individual, which may or may not be correct. It should become the purpose of this article to sort out this mess. Also note that ISI statements apparently never mention "al-Masri", only "al-Muhajir" (but I have not checked that for a while now). Dysmorodrepanis (talk) 14:18, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

"Now, the reward is up to $5 million"
Now, the reward is down to $100,000. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 16:00, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

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