Talk:Accursed Mountains/Archive 1

Alps??
Are you nuts?? The Alps are between France, Italy, Switzerland and Austria!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.245.189.166 (talk) 00:51, 6 September 2016 (UTC)

Oh, wow... France, Italy, Switzerland and Austria "possess" the word "Alps"?! Really... "Alp-" comes from latin "ALBUS". The true origin, meaning, etymology is UNCLEAR. But one thing is clear: the words [ALBA]-nian, [ALBA]nia are clearly connected to the word [ALP] or [ALPEN] (german, plural). Alp: 》A high mountain, especially a snow capped one.《 Guess what, mountains also exist in Balkan, even snow capped ones. If you ever visit Puglia (Italy), and you'll see some white mountains... that's Albania.

However, > Proto-Italic: *alβos > from Proto-Indo-European: *h₂elbʰós. ■ Cognates: ▪Umbrian: alfu ▪Ancient Greek: ἀλφός / alphós ("whiteness, white leprosy") ▪ Hittite: alpas: ("cloud") ▪ Middle Welsh: elbid ("world") ▪ English: elf LAGTON (talk) 07:18, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

The name should be changed to the real one
Calling the Albanian Alps as the weird and unfounded "Prokletije", would be like calling New York as 纽约, just because China doesn't like America. Since number of Chinese readers is so higher, according to your reasonings it should be in Chinese.

The reality is much simpler in fact regarding actual case. Serbian radical/ultra nationalists fabricates Serbian names to every place that comes from their minds, so in future they can have a reason to declare war to other nations for living in a so-called "Serbian" named place which they create from nothing. The slavisation of names is a dangerous geopolitical process that Wikipedia should not tolerate. Every place should be called as the majority of people living there call it in order to avoid wars and problems. No Serbians ever lived in those mountains during history, there were always populated by Albanians, then why the hell someone comes and gives a stupid and fake name???? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.171.52.137 (talk) 10:27, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Serbia!
Serbia must be named in this article. Kosovo status is not important, but Prokletije is Serbian mountain, too. There are no question about that! Tadija (talk) 18:26, 22 December 2008 (UTC)


 * This is the exact same issue discussed at Talk:Šar Mountains. - Regards, Ev (talk) 18:37, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Requested move to Prokletije
Prokletije. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anthony Appleyard (talk • contribs) 11:27, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Prokletije is better known name of this mountain. On [google] search, prokletije gives 69,300 hits, while "North Albanian Alps" gives only 2,410. The name North Albanian Alps is also controversial and is never used in Serbia, while the name Prokletije is more neutral.Vanjagenije (talk) 22:35, 7 January 2009 (UTC)


 * A correction: Prokletije in English language has 30,000 hits; of course, that is still 10 times more. Nikola (talk) 04:36, 10 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, 74.500 hits for me, too. . I agree, it should be moved, is is much more better, in the neutral point of view. Tadija (talk) 18:08, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

North Albanian Alps
When Vanjagenije, Nikola Smolenski and Tadija requested a move to Prokletije they had not included a source on the number of hits on Google for North Albanian Alps.

Here is the number of hits on Google for North Albanian Alps:

http://www.google.hr/search?hl=en&q=North+Albanian+Alps&meta=&aq=o&oq=

The above link produces 244.000 hits for North Albanian Alps. Among those hits are Brittanica and the Albanian Alps Institute. The name (North Albanian Alps) is most widely used by English language speakers.

Therefore the article will be moved back to North Albanian Alps title.

Imbris (talk) 23:08, 15 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, this is a pure manipulation! If You tipe North Albanian Alps on Google Serach, it will give you all pages that contain the words "North", "Albanian" and "Alps", regardless if they are next to each other. If You want to search Google for the exact frase "North Albanian Alps", then You need to type "North Albanian Alps" (with quotation marks). And, if You do this, it gives only 2,340 results (see ). While, for Prokletije, it gives 69,200 (see ) on general search (all languages) and 8,430 on English language search (see ). Is this not a source for You? It clearly shows that Prokletije is the most widely used name for this mountain by English language speakers. So, I'll request the move again, because what Imbris said is clearly not correct. Vanjagenije (talk) 01:00, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Vanja, please assume good faith and don't accuse of manipulation someone who simply mada a hasty Google search. Nikola (talk) 04:34, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Imbris (talk) 02:46, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
 * 515 hits for "Prokletije" when we rule out false positive English language websites.
 * Also Google Books should be searched.
 * Brittanica uses "North Albanian Alps.


 * Imbris, you used Croatian Google, that by default tries to return only Croatian pages. Of course it will find less. Again, search narrowed down for English language returns 30,000 hits. Quotes are not important when you search for a single word, search with quotes returns the same.
 * Google Books returns 320 results for NAA, 446 for Prokletije.
 * Editors of Britannica show obvious bias, their article on Serbia even shows map of Serbia without Kosovo! Nikola (talk) 04:34, 16 January 2009 (UTC)


 * After all of this, it is concluded that it should be Prokletije. All others are not NPOV, and regarding other members attempts, North albanian alps are history now... Tadija (talk) 19:13, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Why should Kosova's mountain be named after a minority language? Prokletije is Serbian! Serbia has nothing to do in here whatsoever! The true name, as used by the 95% of Kosovar inhabitants is Nemuna, or Cursed Mountains! DiedonD (talk) 17:09, 13 April 2009 (UTC)


 * But also Prokletije is in Montenegrin language, and Prokletije is also in Montenegro, or you mean why should there be Serbian mentioned? Rave92 (talk) 17:29, 13 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks for making a good point Rave!
 * Well since you share the mountain with us, than you shuold also have a say on this! Of course! No doubt about that! But people that neither live, nor have anything to do with our mountains than their way of naming our mountains is completely irrelevant wont you think?
 * Since predominantly the mountain lies in Kosova Republic, and the rest in Republic of Montenegro, then I think it should be named Nemuna/Prokletije! DiedonD (talk) 14:00, 15 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Our general naming conventions and the specific ones for geographic names are very clear on this issue: the languages & names used by the people who live in the Prokletije mountains are mostly irrelevant for deciding which names to use in our articles. Instead, we use the name the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize. — Please, take the time to review these naming conventions carefully. — See also my comments at User talk:DiedonD. - Best, Ev (talk) 15:12, 17 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Whoever started this section apparently doesn't know how to run a google search. 99.236.221.124 (talk) 03:45, 16 December 2010 (UTC)


 * A BBC television program once referred to the Prokletije as "the Mountains of the Damned". Anthony Appleyard (talk) 09:32, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

Requested move #2
See the above section. Vanjagenije (talk) 01:05, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Bjeshket e Nemuna/ Cursed Mountains / Nemuna Mountains
It doesnt matters how many results does Google or Yahoo gives. If you want to know how is a certain thing named on another country, you ask their inhabitants cause you dont know. 95% of inhabitants call it Bjeshket e Nemuna or Cursed Mountains in English. So we can make it a compromise of Nemuna Mountains. I live here, and belong to the majority of inhabitants that do so, and call it Nemuna. So its entirely illogical to name it after any other source other then the root, which are their inhabitants DiedonD (talk) 17:44, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Well Nemuna Mountains, or Occursed Monutains, exist only in Republic of Kosova! Why would you name it by any other name appart from how Kosovars call it by majority? Prokletije is a name for our mountains, as is called majorly by a foreign neighbouring country! If we were to name anything in other countries as we pleased and not as it is called by themselves, we would really have a total mess in what gets to be called like what! Wouldnt we?!

So remove Prokletije cause its how a foreign neighbouring country calls it, and put Nemuna Mountains, or Occursed Mountains, cause thats how we here, which the mountain belongs to, call it!

Simple! DiedonD (talk) 10:58, 15 April 2009 (UTC)


 * See the above section. Tadija (talk) 11:37, 15 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Mountaine is also in Montenegro, and in English, it is called Prokletije, not Nemuna or whatever. Rave92 (talk) 13:09, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for making a good point Rave! Well since you share the mountain with us, than you shuold also have a say on this! Of course! No doubt about that! But people that neither live, nor have anything to do with our mountains than their way of naming our mountains is completely irrelevant wont you think? Since predominantly the mountain lies in Kosova Republic, and the rest in Republic of Montenegro, then I think it should be named Nemuna/Prokletije! DiedonD (talk) 13:58, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

This is a double post that I made by accident. And when I tried to delete was accused of vandalism. Im new here, and certainly Wikipedia is far more stranger of a site than any forum I have been thus far! And here are your for thingies now DiedonD (talk) 14:21, 15 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks, and well I am not sure how to end this. Mountain is located in Kosovo, but if you try to prove your point (that it should be how it is called in Kosovo) is very hard as Kosovo has some kind of status like Taiwan. It is not part of UN, so on article Kosovo also counts as part of Serbia, and as independent. Just look at Kosovian article, you have box as UN province in Serbia but also as Republic of Kosovo. And it already has Albanian name which is "North Albanian Alps". Rave92 (talk) 14:23, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Serbia doesnt has a say on this Rave, cause there is not a slightest, minutest, even smallest possible trace of their authority throughout the Kosova Republic. I am aware that the issue is gray as far as certain papers are concerned in the UN. But, the reality speaks otherwise and heres an example.

Say theres a law in Serbia, that due to some religious holliday your not allowed to work at a certain day ANYWERE throughout Serbia! Ok. Well then I can freely record myself working on that day that I shuoldnt be working according to thei juristiiction and constitution, that is not allowed in Serbia, record my 8 hours of working on a camera with a date and time in it, all my interactions with custoemrs and my earnings for that day are put there, put it all on a DVD, send it to the BEST serbian ministry of internal affairs official in Serbia, openly provocke their say on their law on their country, and to make it easier on them, I could also tell them that I would wait for their authorities to come and pick me up in the middle of our capital, on a certain address. And guess what. None of their will ever come!

So technically, reality is that theres only one authority here now, and its a Kosovar one. They dont have a say on what goes on in Kosova. And especially dont have a say on how are things named in Kosova. This is our thing... technically. So in the end, we live here, and we name it Nemuna.

I would be alright with North Albanian Alps, but our mountain Nemuna is shared with them too. Its the same issue with you guys at Montenegro. See its shared, but predominantly its on my country. And since we are the de facto authority here, we get to name it. And thus ours should have the first place.

Thus Im proposing a way to end this. Three countries have to do with the mountains. Us here in Republic of Kosova, you guys in Montenegro, and Albania. So then I tihnk it should be:

Bjeshket e Nemuna/Prokletije/North Albanian Alps DiedonD (talk) 07:31, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

And I so wish that you had a slighter different name than Prokletije for Montenegro. It wouldve made it alot easier on all of us concerned. DiedonD (talk) 07:36, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

So what happens now! Anyone? How does the title change from Prokletije to Nemuna/Prokletije/Northern Albanian Alps. The mountain beeing predominantly in Kosova Republic, I think its fair for keywords that should be used for finding our mountain, thus the title should be Nemuna, and then the rest who share it.

Who changes the title now? I know that I cant, cause each time I did it gets automatically back to its previous state! 213.163.113.2 (talk) 06:16, 17 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Um there won't be change of title. It says Prokletije. It can be found under the both names. Rave92 (talk) 15:18, 17 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Nothing happens now. Our general naming conventions and the specific ones for geographic names are very clear on this issue:
 * The languages & names used by the people who live in or near the Prokletije mountains are mostly irrelevant for deciding which names to use in our articles. Instead, we use the name the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize.
 * Double or "segmented" article names, in the form of Nemuna/Prokletije or Nemuna (Prokletije), are disfavored. — We use a single name instead: the one the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize.
 * In Wikipedia, "Bjeshkët e Nemuna" & "Bjeshket e Nemuna" already redirect to this article. Googling for "Bjeshkët e Nemuna" already returns this very article as its second hit. So, people using those keywords have no problem finding this article. :-)
 * See also my comments at User talk:DiedonD. - Best, Ev (talk) 15:24, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree Rave92 (talk) 23:15, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Requested move to Albanian Alps

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: not moved. No consensus for a move; evidence seems to indicate several names are used equally commonly in English; no convincing case has been made that policy forces us to use either the one or the other. Fut.Perf. ☼ 23:33, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Prokletije → Albanian alps —

Prokletije → Albanian alps — Google scholar results:


 * 1) Albanian alps: 7,760
 * 2) Prokletije: 395
 * 3) Bjeshket e nemuna: 34
 * 4) Bjeshket e nemura: 4
 * 5) Accursed mountains: (I used the phrase accursed mountains albania for more accurate results) 1,160
 * 6) Alpet Shqiptare 22

Google books results:
 * 1) Albanian alps: 1,267
 * 2) Bjeshkët e Nemuna: 133(about 20 results are Albanian-language books)
 * 3) Bjeshkët e Nemura: 12(about 6 results are Albanian-language books)
 * 4) Prokletije: 673 (about 200 are Serbian- or Slavic-language books)
 * 5) Accursed Mountains: 2,000 (about 1000 are related to the subject)
 * 6) Alpet shqiptare: 74

Google search results:
 * 1) Albanian alps: 516,000
 * 2) Bjeshkët e Nemuna: 92,200
 * 3) Bjeshkët e Nemura: 50,800
 * 4) Prokletije: 51,500
 * 5) Accursed Mountains: 152,000(about 90,000 are related to the subject of the article)
 * 6) Alpet shqiptare(translation of the phrase Albanian alps in Albanian language): 105,000

Proposal: Different google tools show that the predominant term used by scholars worldwide is the term Albanian alps, with the term Accursed mountains being second. Per these factors I propose to rename the article to Albanian alps.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 11:14, 7 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Albanian alps? Only Albanians call it like that. Prokletije stays. Also this: Requested move to Prokletije (January 2009)
 * Rave92 (talk) 11:29, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Rave92, most sources use that term for example 82% of the google scholar results use the term Albanian alps. Your argument is WP:IDONTLIKEIT.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 11:33, 7 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I am actually giving you Google results, which is more valid to this discussion. Rave92 (talk) 13:08, 7 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Actually, I asked some experienced users and they told me that google search isn't what is used as a factor to determine the title of an article, but the name used mostly by writers and the name with the most scientific use, and per google books and google scholar that is Albanian alps. But even if we used simple google search then again Albanian alps has 516,000 results, while Prokletije 51,500. Also britannica uses Albanians alps as the title not Prokletije.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 13:40, 7 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Caution: look at those Google results carefully: they are full of false positives. For example, the very first Google scholar search is for albanians alps (without quotation marks) and gives 7,760 results, including mentions of the "North" & "Northern Albanian Alps". — But a similar search for "Albanian Alps" (with quotation marks) returns only 212 results, with the same problems regarding "North" & "Northern Albanian Alps". In the same manner, a Google Books search for "Albanian Alps" (with quotation marks) provides 648 results (instead of 1,267), and includes mentions of the "North" & "Northern Albanian Alps" too. For the record, back in October 2008 I moved this article to "North Albanian Alps", without giving much thought to the issue. - Best, Ev (talk) 14:01, 7 April 2010 (UTC)


 * So you think that the best term is north Albanian alps. Well personally I have no problem with the variant North Albanian alps.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 14:26, 7 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I guess so. Honestly, I don't know which name –(North(ern)) Albanian Alps or Prokletije– is the one most commonly used in English-language publications. They are all widely used, and for our purposes I think they are all more or less equally valid. Back in October 2008 I used "North Albanian Alps" because that's the name Britannica uses in its entry (although Prokletije is also listed and in the articles themselves sometimes the form "the North Albanian Alps (Prokletije)" is used) and because I thought it would be more understandable, more meaningful to our anglophone readership. - Best, Ev (talk) 15:00, 7 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment Instead of quoting Google figures at each other, can we have some examples of use in English prose?  Skinsmoke (talk) 15:26, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
 * When these mountains were in the news a few years ago during a refugee movement, the public media here in England called them Prokletije; television news once called them "the Mountains of the Damned", approximately translating the Serbian name 'Prokletije'. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 16:50, 7 April 2010 (UTC)


 * That's the English translation of both the Serbian and the Albanian name, a variant of this term is the Accursed Mountains, which is the second most used term in sources after Albanian alps.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 17:01, 7 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Oppose These Goggle examples are obviously incorrect since the therm Albanian Alps is typed without quotation marks. I don't see any reason for move. The title of the article should be the most commonly used English name for the mountains, and there is no evidence that Albanian Alps is the most commonly used name. Vanjagenije (talk) 17:21, 7 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Oppose I think we should keep the Montenegrin name. Like Anthony said, Prokletije is mentioned, not North Albanian Alps. Rave92 (talk) 20:44, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Support per nom.  kedadi al  21:44, 7 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment In order to eliminate non-English hits I added the word "mountain" in the following Google Books searches: North Albanian Alps 363, Albanian Alps 614 (incl. hits for North A. A.), Prokletije 329, Bjeshkët e Nemuna 27. This indicates that Prokletije, North Albanian Alps and Albanian Alps are all used in English, and there is no overwhelming preference. I understand the inherent problems of both (North) Albanian Alps and Prokletije: the mountains are in a border region, so neither an Albanian name nor a Montenegrine name will satisfy all. In a similar case the name Krkonoše was chosen by voting. Markussep Talk 17:11, 8 April 2010 (UTC)


 * That's right, and "Albanian Alps" is like referring that it's just in Albania. Rave92 (talk) 19:40, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Markussep which name do you think we should use?-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 23:27, 8 April 2010 (UTC)


 * For me it's a choice between two (or three) names that have flaws, but we don't have a better alternative. I guess Prokletije will be less familiar to the average reader, and it suggests something Slavic. Although the Albanian Alps aren't completely in Albania, I have a weak preference for this name. The Bohemian Forest isn't completely in Bohemia (Czech Republic) either. I'm not sure the adjective "North" is necessary, there are no other Albanian Alps, are there? Markussep Talk 08:10, 9 April 2010 (UTC)


 * No there aren't any other Albanians alps.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 08:34, 9 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Support since most sources use the term Albanian alps--Kushtrim123 (talk) 15:20, 9 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Support: I asked Markussep's thoughts because he is an expert in Geography. We should move to Albanian Alps for the same reason we have in Wikipedia Swiss Alps. Those mountains are separated between France, Italy, and Switzerland, however they are called Swiss Alps. However all these "votings" are unnecessary unless we have non-Balcanic wikipedia users who will give honest unbiased opinions. -- Sulmues talk   18:12, 9 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Ehm, wrong example, Swiss Alps is never used for the entire range. Better examples are the Syrian Desert (which is partly in Jordan and Iraq) and the Sea of Japan (which also borders the Koreas and Russia). Markussep Talk 19:50, 9 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Weak Oppose Obviously both names are used, but the mountain range is located in three different countries, not only in Albania. Furthermore, two largest settlements are situated in Kosovo. Although, highest point is in Albania. Does somebody know how much percentage of mountain area is located in Albania? If it is more than 70%, then maybe it should be renamed into Albanian Alps. Kebeta (talk) 20:48, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Why 70%? Which rule says that? Vanjagenije (talk) 20:51, 9 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Most of the range is located in Albania as are the majority of its highest peaks. It should be also noted that over 80% of the populations of the range is Albanian, meaning that the overwhelming majority of the locals don't use the Slavic term.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 21:08, 9 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Kebeta, our policy on article titles and our naming conventions for geographic names basically indicate that we must limit ourselves to reflect the name commonly used for this mountain range in English-language publications (that is, the name with which our anglophone readership could be already familiar). — Of course, in this case choosing a name is more difficult, because -as Markussep mentioned above- the forms "(North(ern)) Albanian Alps" and "Prokletije" are both widely used.


 * By limiting ourselves to follow English usage, we also avoid arguments about what a place ought to be called (in Wikipedia, often a recipe for incredible extremes of silliness), instead asking the less contentious question, what it is called. So, English usage is the relevant factor here. For the specific purpose of choosing a name for this article, where the majority of these mountains are located, or what names are used in those regions (be it "officially" or by the local population) is basically meaningless. - Best, Ev (talk) 21:39, 9 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Suggestion One way to settle the dispute is to call the aricle The Cursed Mountains or Accursed Mountains. It is both Slavic and Albanian name for this mountain range. Both Prokletije and Bjeshkët e Nemuna means the same thing - Cursed. Just a suggestion. Regards, Kebeta (talk) 21:36, 9 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I had fiddled  with that idea before. :-) Ev (talk) 21:47, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Oppose First, arguments such as "80% of the mountains lie in X, 80% of the population speak language Y" are a)unsourced, b) irrelevant. What decides the names of articles in wikipedia is common English usage among reliable sources (books, reliable news sources, peer-reviewed journals, etc..).

From a valid search in Google Books (i.e. using quotes): Prokletije: 674 hits Albanian Alps: 648 hits Accursed Mountains: 589 hits ] (though this contains many false positives).

From Google Scholar: Prokletije: 191 hits Albanian Alps: 204 hits '''Accursed Mountains: 81 hits

The results for "Prokletije" and "Albanian Alps" break about even, thus there is no strong case for a move. However, an additional problem with "Albanian Alps" is that it may lead some of our readers to think that the mountains lie entirely in Albania. Athenean (talk) 22:39, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, all non-Balkans editors agree that Prokletije is not a valid term and we should use either Albanians alps or as Kebeta proposed Accursed mountains. Also Athenean you're misusing the search and I should note that the only editors who have supported the Prokletije version are either Serbs, Montenegrins or Greeks. Moreover as Markussep explained there are several cases where the name used applies only to the majority of the area like the case of the Syrian desert.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 22:48, 9 April 2010 (UTC)


 * One small correction, ZjarriRrethues: I'm a "non-Balkans editor", and I mentioned above (15:00, 7 April UTC) that, for our proposes, I consider "Prokletije" more or less equally valid as a title. :-) Best, Ev (talk) 22:56, 9 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I don't believe you are in a position to speak on behalf of non-Balkan editors. The only one who seems to think that Prokletije is not a "valid" term is you.  The speed with which you responded to my post and your attempt to speak on behalf of non-Balkan editors shows you have very strong feelings about this, so don't lecture others on their perceived lack of neutrality.  Besides a whole bunch of Albanian editors, no one else has come out in strong support of the move.  I see no consensus emerging in favor of a move, which is what is reflected in the literature.  Regarding Syrian Desert, that is a very different story:  This usage is very very old, and there is no alternative nomenclature, quite unlike here.  By the way, why is it that you can't seem to figure out the use of talkpage indentation correctly?  One use of ":" is for one indentation, two uses of ":" for two indentations, and so forth.  Please learn how to use it correctly, it makes the talkpage harder to read when you don't. Athenean (talk) 23:00, 9 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm not speaking on behalf of them, I'm commenting on what they've said so far and "the speed of my replies" is not a sign of "strong feelings". Please don't make this a personal discussion, if you want to say something to me say it in my talkpage not here.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 23:17, 9 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm not interested in saying anything to you, I'm only interested in making sure no one who reads this discussion is misled. So far as I see it, not a single non-Balkan editor has come out in favor of the move.  And when you claim All non-Balkan editors agree that Prokletije is not a valid term, that is a) false, and b) you are attempting to speak for others.  Athenean (talk) 23:22, 9 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Strong oppose, and to the pro-Albanian nationalist POV move request, requested with false positives, as numerous times before.  -- Tadijataking 13:24, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Oppose I am still waiting for anyone to produce an example of use in contemporary English prose.  If you can't be arsed to support your proposal with specific examples, I can't be arsed supporting the move.  Skinsmoke (talk) 15:42, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Request Move to Albanian Alps

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: not moved. Armbrust The Homunculus 10:02, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

Prokletije → Albanian Alps – More common than Prokletije. Ujkrieger (talk) 09:40, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

I carried out a search similar to that of User:ZjarriRrethues in 2010:

Google Scholar (English language results only):


 * Albanian Alps: 4,540
 * Prokletije: 506
 * Bjeshket e Nemuna: 46
 * Accursed Mountains Albania: 1,490
 * Alpet Shqiptare: 14

Google Books (English language results only):


 * Albanian Alps: 12,300
 * Prokletije: 5,840
 * Bjeshket e Nemuna: 199
 * Accursed Mountains Albania: 3,140
 * Alpet Shqiptare: 40

Google Search:


 * Albanian Alps: 914,000
 * Prokletije: 213,000
 * Bjeshket e Nemuna: 19,800
 * Accursed Mountains Albania: 24,900
 * Alpet Shqiptare: 90,800


 * Oppose Your google search is wrong. You didnt use " between the names, so it search for all word, so wrong. Also, only albanians use this name as common, so it should not be used like that on Eenglish viki. Wrong. -- Ąnαșταη ( ταlκ )  16:08, 18 May 2014 (UTC)


 * 776 Prokletije
 * 430 albanian alps

You see here your serch is wrong, this is good result. -- Ąnαșταη ( ταlκ )  16:13, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Oppose The mountain range spans three different countries, one of which is Albania. Nemuna Mountains or Acursed Mountains would be far more neutral. 23 editor (talk) 16:54, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Oppose - Another move proposal related to Kosovo which is based on false search results. GBS give advantage to Prokletije (all time: 4,920:2,770 and 21st century: 144:123). --Antidiskriminator (talk) 23:10, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
 * The quotation marks are needed when searching. When I searched each title in quotes on Google books, I got 325 for Prokletije to 324 for Albanian Alps. On Google scholar, it was more heavily in favor of Prokletije at 868 to 532. So, it can't be concluded that Albanian Alps is more common; I oppose. -- Local hero talk 23:29, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Name
There is some problems with the Albanian name. In 20th century Gbook hits: "Alpet shqiptare" (10), 8 of which relate to Prokletije, the oldest from 1959; "Bjeshkët e Nemuna" (19), all of which relate to the Prokletije. Both terms are nonexistant in 19th c. sources. Therefore, the secondary Albanian name should stay in the name section and not bolded in the lead section.--Z oupan 00:15, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Don't push your POV here. It has been commonly agreed that both names should be used. What is your argument anyway? 19th century sources...? How is that relevant to today. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.42.135.163 (talk) 10:45, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
 * I have presented that the secondary name (Albanian Alps/Alpet shqiptare, rather descriptive than actually in use) is not widespread, and should therefore stay in the name section; "Bjeshkët e Nemuna" is used in Albanian. Instead of accusing of POV, you could actually contribute by discussing the matter and perhaps present sources. --Z oupan 16:55, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Albanian Alps is also commonly used in English. Search it on Google Books. I don't need to present that information to you, it's available to you at the click of a button. 78.144.65.198 (talk) 19:48, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
 * As per common name: https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#tbm=bks&q=%27%27albanian+alps%27%27

It's commonly used in English, and so should be bolded. It's not about what Albanians use, it's about what English speaking authors use. "Albanian Alps" gets 1,670 Google books results, "Prokletije" gets 534, so Albanian Alps is actually more commonly used (unless I've mistakenly searched it). This means that not only should it be bolded, Albanian Alps should actually be the title. 78.144.65.198 (talk) 19:54, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
 * EDIT: My first search was incorrect. My second search was this: "albanian alps"-albania. This still got a lot of results (https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#tbm=bks&q=%27%27albanian+alps%27%27-albania), 1,110, again more than Prokletije. 78.144.65.198 (talk) 19:56, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

Your search hits are false. As for the use of "Alpet Shqiptare", see this — Alpet Shqiptare is one of three/four "natural regions" of Albania. This should not be misinterpreted as the whole of Prokletije.--Z oupan 11:02, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
 * How are the search hits false?

https://www.google.co.uk/search?num=100&tbm=bks&q=%27%27albanian+alps%27%27-albania%2C+alps&oq=%27%27albanian+alps%27%27-albania%2C+alps&gs_l=serp.3..30i10.6008.9269.0.9375.10.9.1.0.0.0.229.755.8j0j1.9.0....0...1c.1.64.serp..9.1.62.IB9jv_4zgVc 1,230 hits. All of this hits use either 'Albanian Alps', 'North Albanian Alps' or 'Northern Albanian Alps'. Well done for using a single source and ignoring for what the most common name is. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.151.44.227 (talk) 12:47, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Move to Albanian Alps
Page should be moved to Albanian Alps, most common name on Google books. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.151.44.233 (talk) 17:02, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

Dubious
The page for Calderone glacier states that it is the most southernmost glacier in Europe, and mentions that it is more southern than the Prokletije glaciers. The citation it uses isn't really clear on which one is further south. The Prokletije glaciers have been brought up on Talk:Calderone glacier, but it was by an IP editor who didn't have a hard source either. Can anyone find a real citation to clear this up? -Apocheir (talk) 17:33, 25 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Well, on the matter of Europe's Southernmost Glacier I have a lot to say. First of all, the title goes to different geographic or glacial features, depending on the definition of a glacier. There are bodies of ice (glacierets) in Southern Europe, as I will mention some of them, which are situated further South. Second of all, I have been on and around some of these and can personally testify about their eligibility if asked. I can provide both numerous photographs as well as description of their features, as I have walked on some of them.


 * 1) Let's start with the previous holder of the title - Corral de la Veleta beneath the North Face of Veleta (3394 m) in Sierra Nevada with a latitude of 37°03'31" N and an altitude of about 3100 m, which disappeared in 1913.


 * 2) The Northernmost of the current claimants - Debeli Namet in Durmitor is massive enough, but is at a latitude of 43°06'53" N and at an altitude between 2050 and 2250 m. It is situated under the vertical cliffs of the N Face of Šljeme (2455 m), which hide it from the Sun. It is mostly avalanche fed. I visited the mountain in the spring of 2011.


 * 3) The numerous glaciers in the Maladeta Massif in the Pyrenees are all around 42°38' - 42°39' N - namely the ones on the slopes of Aneto (3404 m) and Maladeta (3312 m). Perhaps one could find glaciers further South in the mountain but I doubt any would pass the 42°30' N mark, whereas the other claimants all lie behind it.


 * 4) The Calderone beneath the NE slopes of Corno Grande (2912 m) in the Gran Sasso Massif of the Apennines is at a latitude of 42°28'15" N and an altitude between 2680 and 2730 m. It is likely to disappear in the next few years.


 * 5) The Southernmost (to my knowledge) claimants are the two glacierets in the Pirin mountain in SW Bulgaria. They are patches of ice covered with firn and snow, and are fed mostly by avalanche snow. The slightly Northern one - Banski Suhodol is at a latitude of 41°46'55" N and an altitude between 2630 and about 2700 m, at the NW Face of Kutelo (2908 m), while the better studied Southern one - Snezhnika in the Golyam Kazan cirque, below the N Face of the highest peak in the mountain - Vihren (2914), is at a latitude of 41°46'09" N and at an altitude between 2425 and 2480 m. it has been monitored by Bulgarian scientists for the best part of the 20th century and today.


 * 6) And last but not least - the glaciers in Prokletije. I visited the mountain at the end of August 2015. I was lucky to be there in a mostly dry year. That caused many of the lakes to disappear, as well as almost all snow from the previous winter to vanish, revealing the solid ice bodies to the surface. I can tell that by comparing photos of mountaineers who were there in the previous several years. I have numerous photos that show the difference and the sharp boundary between the ice and the packed snow from the winter. I have tested three of these with my crampons and can testify they are hard as glass, although their appearance is as dirty brownish frozen waves. The reason this mountain has so much ice and snow is simple - it rises straight from the shores of the Adriatic sea and is the first to meet the moisture coming from it. As a result it rains here almost every day. Rain water is drained quickly since the mountain consists mostly of limestone, while snow is much more ready to accumulate. I should also note that there are far more than just 4 glaciers or patches of ice. I myself have identified more than twenty on and beneath the sharp Northern faces of just three peaks - Maja e Malësores (2490 m), Maja Jezercë (2694 m), and Maja e Popljuces (2569 m). They are all between and around 42°26' and 42°27' N, with the Southernmost three being at latitudes of about 42°25'52" at he top to about 42°26'01" N at the head. If you have a good look (zoom in) at this picture, made by the Landsat 8 satellite in 2013, you could easily identify much more - the cyan blue colour is a tell sign: [Prokletije Glaciers Satellite].


 * Finally, here is an improvised list that summarizes the above information. Latitudes are approximate and are from the lowest parts of the ice bodies, while altitudes are even more inaccurate, since I used Google Earth - just for a comparison purpose. For Prokletije I note where I have personal photos and I have also put external (Panoramio) links to photos of some of the areas in question, taken by others:

Corral de la Veleta	37°03'31" N	03°21'54" W	3100 m		Sierra Nevada	Veleta (3394 m) N Face; Disappeared in 1913

Debeli Namet		43°06'53" N	19°04'02" E	2050-2250	Durmitor	Šljeme (2455 m) N Face

Aneto			42°38'04" N	00°39'20" E	2970-3250	Pyrenees	Aneto (3404 m) N Face Barrancos		42°37'52" N	00°39'45" E	3000-3380			Aneto (3404 m) NE Face Las Tempestades	    42°38'00" N	00°39'25" E	3200-3300			Aneto (3404 m) NE Face Coronas / Coronado	42°37'54" N	00°39'01" E	3100-3320			Aneto (3404 m) W Face Cregüella										Aneto (3404 m); immobile glacieret Alba											Aneto (3404 m); immobile glacieret Salenques										Aneto (3404 m); immobile glacieret

Maladeta		42°38'50" N	00°38'22" E	91-acre (37 ha)	Pyrenees	Maladeta (3312 m) N Face Eastern Maladeta					77-acre (31 ha) Western Maladeta					15-acre (6 ha)

Calderone		42°28'15" N	13°34'03" E	2680-2730	Apennines	Gran Sasso, Corno Grande (2912 m)

Banski Suhodol		41°46'55" N	23°23'40" E	2630-2700	Pirin		Kutelo (2908 m) NW Face; glacieret

Snezhnika		41°46'09" N	23°24'10" E	2425-2480	Pirin		Vihren (2914 m) N Face; glacieret

Maja e Malësores (2490 m):						Prokletije

NW Cirque Bed		42°27'13" N	19°47'55" E	2010	Photos & Walked NE Cirque Bed	1	42°27'00" N	19°48'05" E	2090	Photos & Walked NE Cirque Bed	2	42°27'01" N	19°48'11" E	2080	Photos & Walked

Maja Jezercë (2694 m):							Prokletije NW Face 1		42°26'45" N	19°48'24" E	2350	- NW Face 2		42°26'45" N	19°48'34" E	2370	- N Face 1		42°26'44" N	19°48'49" E	2350	Photos Close By (30-40 m) N Face 2		42°26'40" N	19°48'54" E	2360	Photos Close By (~200 m) N Face 3		42°26'36" N	19°49'00" E	2380	-

NE Face 1	     	    42°26'24" N	19°49'01" E	2410	Photos from Maja Jezerce NE Face 2		42°26'22" N	19°49'06" E	2380	Photos from Maja Jezerce NE Face 3		42°26'19" N	19°49'17" E	2340	Photos from Maja Jezerce NE Cirque Bed		42°26'45" N	19°49'07" E	2190	Photos from Col ~2300 (Maja Kokervhake - Maja Jezerce)

Maja Popluks / Maja e Popljuces (2569 m):				Prokletije N Face 1a 	42°25'52" - 42°25'55" N	19°48'23" E	2380	Photos from Maja Jezerce N Face 1b		42°25'59" N	19°48'23" E	2340	Photos from Maja Jezerce  N Face 2a 	42°25 52" - 42°25'54" N	19°48'16" E	2400	Photos from Maja Jezerce N Face 2b		42°26'00" N	19°48'16" E	2330	Photos from Maja Jezerce

N Face 2c		43°26'06" N	19°48'20" E	2260	Photos from Maja Jezerce N Face 3		42°26'00" N	19°48'04" E	2310	Photos from Maja Jezerce N Face 4a 	42°25'54" - 42°26'01" N	19°47'54" E	2420-2320 - N Face 4b		42°26'10" N	19°47'57" E	2150	Photos from Maja Jezerce


 * Hope it helps for a fruitful discussion!--Bobbylon (talk) 03:21, 25 May 2017 (UTC)