Talk:Actions of the Hohenzollern Redoubt

Created article
I added this article because several VC recipient pages link to the article. I'm not a history buff, so I hope that someone who is more experienced in the field can fill it out. -- Mikeblas 22:48, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Map Coordinates
Does anybody have the map coordinates for the Redoubt or the memorial? Neddy53 (talk) 12:54, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Done. Rod. Rcbutcher (talk) 01:57, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

German perspective anybody
Any German contributors out there who can add the German story ? By all accounts they put up an excellent defence and the article needs a more even coverage. Rod. Rcbutcher (talk) 01:57, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

CE
Tidied prose and changed date format to wiki.Keith-264 (talk) 17:43, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Added references from OH.Keith-264 (talk) 07:47, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Apologies, I copied the page to a sandbox so as to complete it and put it back in one go but then forgot that I was still on the official page when I added categories, which is why some are empty for the moment.Keith-264 (talk) 11:21, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Notable deaths

 * Major-General George Handcock Thesiger, 27 September 1915.
 * Captain Fergus Bowes-Lyon, brother of the future Queen Mother, 27 September 1915
 * Lord Ninian Edward Crichton-Stuart, 2 October 1915

Put this here in case someone wants to put it back.Keith-264 (talk)


 * I added these to the article because I understood that these losses represented a significant blow to the British capabilities which were felt for a long time. I will leave it to someone else's judgement as to whether to add them back. I would like that but probably won't edit the article again due to other pressures on my time. PeterEastern (talk) 14:20, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I could work them into the analysis section.Keith-264 (talk) 16:23, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Sounds great. PeterEastern (talk) 10:12, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Additions Reply
I've been procrastinating for so long that I've decided to put the additions up anyway and add the rest as and when.Keith-264 (talk) 17:08, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

Nomenclature
Changed the link here Template:Campaignbox The Actions of Spring 1916 to reflect the nomenclature title which refers to 13–19 October 1915. This page has a date range (25 September – 15 October) that puts it in the Battle of Loos (25 September – 8 October) and appears to overlap with the Actions and may benefit from splitting when it's completed.Keith-264 (talk) 08:26, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Confused article?
What is the subject of this article supposed to be? I understand the Battle of the Hohenzollern Redoubt to be the costly attack by 46th Division on 13 October 1915, when the Midlanders suffered terrible casualties. But the entire Battle section seems to be talking about the opening of the Battle of Loos on 25 September, when the Redoubt was taken as part of the larger offensive - though the Redoubt is not mentioned at all in the Battle section! Under the heading "German 6th Army" there are two sentences about the 46th Division attack. It then jumps to talk about 13 October in the aftermath section, and gives the order of battle of 46th Division (only). Cyclopaedic (talk) 14:25, 29 December 2014 (UTC)


 * I suggest you read the comments above.Keith-264 (talk) 18:19, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
 * PS there are some notes on the article page, which are visible if you look at it on edit this page.Keith-264 (talk) 18:22, 29 December 2014 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure what comments or notes you are referring to, but the article seems to be largely about the Battle of Loos as it is, either generally or about the part of it around the Hohenzollern Redoubt, and not about the battle of the Hohenzollern Redoubt on 13-14 October, which was the final action of the Battle of Loos. We are about to have the 100th anniversary of these battles so there will be a lot of interest in them in the coming year. As it stands, I think it would be better not to have this separate article and to concentrate on improving the Battle of Loos article. (My grandfather served in 46th (North Midland) Division.) Cyclopaedic (talk) 09:43, 30 December 2014 (UTC)


 * How many meanings does above have? ;O) (See Nomenclature) He wasn't from Mansfield was he?Keith-264 (talk) 10:11, 30 December 2014 (UTC)


 * There's a lot above and I didn't understand what the Nomenclature note was trying to say. Cyclopaedic (talk) 13:35, 30 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Are you familiar with the Record of the Battles and Engagements of the British Armies in France? It established the names and dates of battles etc. It gives Loos as 25 Sep to 8 October and an Actions of the Hohenzollern Redoubt 13-19 Oct. There's also this Hohenzollern Redoubt (1916) not listed in the Record... but described in the OH part I for 1916, hence the confusion.Keith-264 (talk) 10:21, 30 December 2014 (UTC)


 * So that supports the view that all the stuff in the article relating to the Battle of Loos generally and the fighting on 25/26 September 1915 should come out. Most commentaries seem to regard the Battle (or "Actions") of the Hohenzollern Redoubt 13-19 Oct as the final phase of the Battle of Loos, but whether it is or not does not much matter. What does matter is that the bulk of the article as it is (the Battle section and other bits relating to events of 25 September or the Battle of Loos generally) needs to come out. 1916 is another article altogether. Cyclopaedic (talk) 13:35, 30 December 2014 (UTC)


 * I know but this article was written about the redoubt, not Loos so there is bound to be a big overlap. The Loos article needs lots of work and I would rather that was done before any great changes were contemplated here, because most of the writing has been done by people with a personal connexion. It happens sometimes - First Day on the Somme is a detailed article on 1 July and there is a separate Battle of Albert 1916 and separate pages on parts of the front line like La Boisselle. I think there's enough material in the sources to have a separate hub article on the Redoubt and links to the main articles like Loos, the Action and HR 1916. Pity my efforts ran aground last year or the deficiencies on the page wouldn't be so bad. Keith-264 (talk) 13:51, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Casualty figures are massively confusing. If the article is about the action in the 13th to 19th of Octber then 3000 German deaths before then don't enter into it. There are 3600 British deaths mentioned in several places and at the bottom nearly 12,000 from three divisions cited. Nickpheas (talk) 10:05, 2 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Late to the party, but equally confused here. The lead sets the date range to be 13–19 October, and mentions the attack by the 46th (North Midland) Division on 13 October, but the main body focuses largely on the 9th Division's attack on 25 September, and devotes just one paragraph to the subsequent operations, in which the attack by the 46th Division on 13 October gets just two sentences. It seems to me that most of this article is about the Battle of Loos (which itself needs work). Factotem (talk) 18:47, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
 * It's a mish-mash, the Record of battles and engagements has engagements during the Battle of Loos (25 September – 14 October 1915) Actions of the Hohenzollern Redoubt 13-19 October and the OH 1916 I has Attack at the Hohenzollern Redoubt from 2–18 March 1916. Keith-264 (talk) 19:13, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
 * OK. Thanks. One for the to-do list, I guess. Factotem (talk) 19:30, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

Recent edits
I tried to add an infobox then got deja vu, wasn't there one here for ages? I've made a hash of it anyway and have to leave it for now. Apologies everyone.Keith-264 (talk) 07:32, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

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