Talk:Adam Gilchrist

= FAC discussion =

FA - Blnguyen's oppose
I'm posting here a reformatted version of Blnguyen's oppose !vote, so the issues can be dealt with individually. Any mistakes in the reformatting are my fault - I'll ask Blnguyen to check. --Dweller 11:55, 5 March 2007 (UTC) Comment originally by Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:02, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) There is no mention of his 2000 elevation to vice-captaincy after the Nursegate-Warney scandal.
 * 2) *There is now, although not using "Nursegate" which I found hard to cite. It was fun reading about Warney's bad behaviour...!The Rambling Man 21:20, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
 * 3) There is a complete blackout on the 2000/01 Australian season, where he captained one Test in Adelaide when Waugh was injured.
 * 4) *Okay, so blackout removed, no massive coverage but inclusion of the star moment, when he captained his first test, some comments from him and a good citation. The Rambling Man 21:40, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
 * 5) No coverage of March 2001 tour to India.
 * 6) *Tour now covered including his king pair in the second test, tee-hee The Rambling Man 11:32, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
 * 7) So basically there is a big gap of 18 months from early 2000 to mid 2001 Ashes series. He captained another Test at Headingley when Waugh was injured. This is not mentioned, when he let England have a target of 300 on the last day and they made it easily.
 * 8) *Hopefully considerably more covered now but will add info re:Headingley test into the Ashes 2001 section The Rambling Man 13:07, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
 * 9) *Now covers his second single-Test captaincy and the surprising loss to England. The Rambling Man 13:26, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
 * 10) No mention of 2001/02 Australian season. This was when they tried to get Hayden into the ODI team, and rotated Gilchrist Waugh and Hayden in the opening slots. Both Waugh and Gilchrist went out of form < 20 average for the season; Waugh borthers dropped, most successful Australian ODI opening combo broke up.
 * 11) *2001-02 season now covered although not in the detail described above. Fine, mention rotation of openers with Hayden, but the Waugh brothers out etc would be better in the Waugh brothers articles in my opinion.  The Rambling Man 17:07, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
 * 12) Elevation of Ponting to captaincy ahead of Gilchrist, the incumbent VC is not mentioned.
 * 13) *Okay, so maybe unusual but not that amazing. Can you provide a nice citation as to why this is more notable than just interesting, in other words, some citation of controversy?  Thanks.  The Rambling Man 17:44, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
 * 14) 2002/03 Australian season not mentioned.
 * 15) *Done in overview I think. The Rambling Man 17:44, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
 * 16) 2003/04 season not mentioned...many gaps in the coverage.
 * 17) *Mentioned, more to come. The Rambling Man 18:29, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
 * 18) He was also fined by ICC/ACB for pubilcly condeming Murali at a sponsorship function somewhere.
 * 19) *Captured his reprimand by the ACB for having a dig at Murali's suspect action. The Rambling Man 18:40, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
 * 20) Many seasons have little/no account.
 * 21) *For a player of his longevity of career, I don't think we need to cover every season or indeed every series. Covering his key career highs, lows and milestones is right for a biog here. This preserves readability, gives a narrative for the guy's career and is appropriate for Wikipedia, rather than (the fictional) "Cricketpedia". If any key moments are missing, they should be completed, but otherwise we can afford lacunae that don't add to the story. This is my opinion and I'm happy to be persuaded otherwise. --Dweller 13:31, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Gilchrist's form slumped, making a rare king pair (two golden ducks in the same match) in the Second Test in Kolkata and scoring just two in his two innings in Chennai. --> Not sure whether 'form slumped' is a fair comment of what happened. In Mumbai, he had used his slog sweep very successfully against the spinners (though he was dropped early on by SS Das off a top edge). He kept trying the same shot in the next two Test matches and got lbw in four consecutive innings (actually in the first of them - during Harby's hattrick - he had got a thick inside edge onto his pads). It is as simple as that. "Form slumped" seems to hint at something else. Tintin 11:50, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Okay, fair enough, I've toned down the 'slump' mention, and included the four consecutive lbw's. As always, thanks for your comments. The Rambling Man 13:12, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually I should thank you and Dweller for considering practically every one of my suggestions. I myself don't think that all of them are really valid. Tintin 13:25, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
 * The Gilchrist inside edge in the Harhajan hat-trick -> that wasn't a slog sweep IIRC, it was an attempted forcing shot through midwicket right; I think it was off the back foot, maybe on the crease. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 22:49, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I think your memory is too good! How do you find our changes?  Fancy going support on the FA yet?  The Rambling Man 22:52, 7 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I'll take a look. I am surprised that unabashed drivel like Featured article candidates/Michael Jordan is passing, from all their NBA fan voting. Look at all the editorial comment and hyperbole!! ShockingBlnguyen (bananabucket) 01:42, 8 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Yeah, true. Now that I think about it, only two of the four seem to be slog sweeps. Tintin 22:54, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Further FA comments

 * Support. It's good. Comments:

 Michaelas10   (Talk)   16:06, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) ...successful World Cup campaign,[55]. - Seemingly unfinished sentence.
 * Flowed sentences correctly now The Rambling Man 16:29, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) Avoid external link referencing format in the "Achievements" section — convert those intro regular references instead.
 * Done, but someone else can do it next time!! The Rambling Man 17:47, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) Choose whether you would like to use British or American date format throughout the article.
 * Well, throughout th earticle, all dates are consistent, but agreed they conflict with the footnote style, but that is set by the citeweb template when using the accessdate field. So no action here I think. The Rambling Man 18:00, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Fixed me thinks.  Michaelas10   (Talk)   18:19, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) Gilchrist's skills as a wicket-keeper are sometimes questioned... - The following part of the sentence should state some people doubt him being the best keeper in Australia, and not the opposite.
 * Rephrased. The Rambling Man 17:52, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) ...in six innings against both India and Sri Lanka - "both" is redundant.
 * Removed. Thanks. --Dweller 16:41, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Note other instances of the word.  Michaelas10   (Talk)   16:45, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Have eradicated several more. Judiciously left some in, where it served for emphasis. This is clearly goes into subjective territory, but the clear redundancies have been removed. Thanks. --Dweller 17:08, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) The  referencing parameter is reserved solely for people.
 * Done where appropriate, thank you. The Rambling Man 18:09, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) List of cricket terms improperly linked.
 * Works for me, can you say which instance isn't linked properly and why? The Rambling Man 18:09, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Fixed.  Michaelas10   (Talk)   18:19, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) A Test series whitewash over New Zealand,[70] was followed.. - Whenever a reference is placed in the middle of a sentence, adding a comma prior to it is unnecessary as this would normally result in a grammatical error.
 * Indeed, bad Rambling Man. Comma prosecuted.  The Rambling Man 17:55, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) ...moved the family > ...moved with the family.
 * I disagree with this. Parents deciding where to move a family is appropriate. "Moved with" would make it sound like the kids decided and the parents were forced to agree. --Dweller 16:41, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

A few issues
Great article, just a few issues I've got. Opening remarks "who redefined the role for the Australian national team through his aggressive batting" means nothing, sounds like sporting jargon. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.74.159.111 (talk) 15:16, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
 * At the start of the 1997–98 Australian season, Healy and captain Mark Taylor were omitted from the ODI squad as the Australian selectors opted for a more aggressive batting style, choosing Gilchrist and Michael di Venuto. Gilchrist's elevation was made possible by a change in policy by selectors, who announced that selection for ODI and Test teams would be separate, with Test and ODI specialists selected accordingly, while Healy remained the preferred Test wicket-keeper. That probably needs citing.
 * You crafty sod, yes, this needs a citation. I was half tempted to remove the whole thing because I couldn't find anything useful to add...  Can you help?  The Rambling Man 22:44, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I'll have a go... HornetMike 22:58, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Odd. I'm sure I cited that Test/ODI thing a while back... --Dweller 23:00, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
 * The new team was initially unconvincing, losing all four of its round robin matches against South Africa in the 1997–98 Carlton & United Series,[43][44][45][46] shouldn't citations go at the end of sentences?
 * Actually, and I'm no expert, if you follow WP:FOOT, they can be placed quite happily after punctuation marks, so I think this is okay in this case... The Rambling Man 22:22, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
 * In the effort to find an opening partner for Waugh, he walked out with Gilchrist to attempt a run chase in the first final against South Africa, at the Melbourne Cricket Ground.[47] That probably needs re-phrasing
 * Sorry for being blunt, but how? What emphasis would you rather read into this?  Cheers! The Rambling Man 22:44, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
 * It's just that you get Waugh and then pronoun referring to him come one after another. And when one reads the article you sort of auto-presume any "he's" refer to Gilchrist. I had to re-read that sentence a couple of times to work out what it meant.
 * During this series, he was made captain, once again in the absence of an injured Mark Waugh, for a single Test, Steve surely?
 * Surely. Duh.  The Rambling Man 22:22, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
 * However, he maintained his own high standards in the One-day game Not sure we need the own there
 * Indeed, thanks. The Rambling Man 22:22, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
 * You want to put the refernces into two columns? Might help.
 * Well, I'm using which appears to work nicely in some browsers (e.g. Safari) and not in others (e.g. IE7).  Not 100% my fault, but if there's a solution, let me know... Cheers, The Rambling Man 22:22, 8 March 2007 (UTC) HornetMike 20:59, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
 * There's a reason why I shouldn't use IE7... HornetMike 22:58, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

More FA nom comments from Quadzilla99

 * Obviously this is a personal preference but I'd like the lead to be without citations, also it could stand to be expanded.
 * Expanded a bit, I'm going to leave thecitations for the time being... The Rambling Man 14:48, 9 March 2007 (UTC)


 * There are a couple of two sentence paragraphs which could be expanded or combined, particularly the ones in the lead. You could expand the first paragraph in the early life section in particular. Maybe by saying who he looked up to as a youth or who he played for/with as a youth (I'm not that familiar with cricket but I assume they play cricket in organized leagues in their teenage years also).
 * Added a bit more, but have to be careful to find decent citable information which seems hard to come by in the early days of Gilly's career.The Rambling Man 15:03, 9 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Also this sentence could use a source:"At the start of the 1997–98 Australian season, Healy and captain Mark Taylor were omitted from the ODI squad as the Australian selectors opted for a more aggressive batting style, choosing Gilchrist and Michael di Venuto." It sounds like a statement someone might argue over (someone might say they was omitted for other reasons).
 * Removed for the time being, no doubt the two batsmen selected were more aggressive but no citations available right now so just stick to bare facts of the matter. The Rambling Man 14:37, 9 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Also link whitewash the first time it appears, if it already is linked I apologize but I don't think it is.
 * Linked, thanks. The Rambling Man 14:23, 9 March 2007 (UTC)


 * In addition "Gilchrist has also been reprimanded for criticism of other players, including questioning Muttiah Muralitharan's bowling action in 2002 and was reprimanded by the Australian Cricket Board." Is unclear why was he reprimanded by the Australian cricket board?
 * More explanation now provided, hopefully sufficient. The Rambling Man 14:29, 9 March 2007 (UTC)


 * First World Cup Success contains a couple of long sentences as do a few other other sections but I guess they're alright.
 * Modified the lines you've specified, if anything else specifically annoys, please let me know! The Rambling Man 14:21, 9 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Also maybe remove the "aganosingly" adjective in favor of something more neutral and formal in the Two in a row section, unless it has some meaning I don't understand.
 * Removed and rephrased - the point was that he was out one short of a century, so made it clearer. The Rambling Man 14:17, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Quadzilla99 13:51, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Wow, great work. Quadzilla99 15:26, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
 * To make it clear, I supported even before these concerns were addressed. So great job all around and way to address concerns in detail. Quadzilla99 12:44, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Comments from Nichalp

 * Weak oppose --
 * 1) choppy prose. He is.. appears 3 times in 1 paragraph in the lead.
 * Hopefully rephrased to move a bit away from the repetitive choppy nonsense. The Rambling Man 20:01, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) add the (US baseball franchise the,)  Boston Red Sox
 * Done, linked to MLB and added a bit of explanation. The Rambling Man 20:01, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) Section titles needs to be in a more encyclopedic tone "Two in a row?"; "2001 Ashes and beyond"? --> =2003 world cup=; =2001 Ashes=;
 * Sorry, that's the wannabe trashy journalist coming out in me. Headings changed accordingly... The Rambling Man 20:03, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) i.e. --> that is
 * Done... The Rambling Man 20:06, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) known for his emotion -- POV; rephrase
 * Yeah, knew you didn't like that sentence. I've made it clear that his outbursts have been noted and hopefully made the whole phrasing a bit more npov.  The Rambling Man 20:09, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) 'remarkably high' --> high
 * Done. The Rambling Man 20:06, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) He made only seven further appearances odd wording -- that ending paragraph is choppy.
 * Tried a repositioning of the paragraph in question, minor reword, and hope that the flow has improved to avert your choppy issues! The Rambling Man 20:12, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) Avoid mentioning his age (35 year-old)
 * Gone, agreed, an oversight, potential maintenance nightmare removed. The Rambling Man 20:01, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

=Nichalp  «Talk»=  15:02, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

= Other stuff =

POV statement
I think that this statement needs to be changed or removed:

"However, while perhaps not as elegant as some, he has successfully kept wicket for leg spinner Shane Warne over many years, managing many stumpings, missing few catching chances, and letting through few byes."

A statistic on stumpings could be found, but how do you judge "missing few catching chances and letting few byes?" Also, who judges his success against Warne? I personally agree that he's done a good job, but the only point of comparison is Healy, and either way, the statement is unsourced and will probably stay that way.

If nobody objects or changes over the next few days, I'll remove the statement. Damanmundine &#124; Talk 10:16, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't agree it should go. The fact is he has had little critism of his keeping in recent years... its not been bad at all, perhaps not Healy or Knott good, but still good. In this case a lack of cites is almost proof in itself. The press are savage about poor keeping, just ask any England keeper of the last few years. Furthermore it shouldnt be hard to cite a respected source saying he's been pretty good. --LiamE 14:29, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree with you on most counts, so I think we should find a citation on his keeping ability to back up the statement. I'll try to do that over the next few days. I'm still not sure about the "missing few chances and letting through few byes" part, because it doesn't seem specific enough. Maybe a change to "he has successfully kept wicket to both fast bowlers and spinners alike, notably Shane Warne,(cite) managing 37 stumpings in Test matches." Damanmundine &#124; Talk 00:42, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

The lead
What has happened to the lead? It has been chopped to pieces and is now unrecognisable from its Featured Article glory. The current lead is full of one sentence paragraphs and does not meet FA guidelines. Please have a look at WP:LEAD and if you can recover the chopped out content and restore it to the lead. Thanks, Mattinbgn\talk 09:23, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
 * It's suffered from a huge bout of recentism. I'll see if I can restore it to the FA standard. The Rambling Man (talk) 09:32, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Is done. I'll keep an eye on it, it looks likely that it'll be hacked to death by one or two determined editors.  The Rambling Man (talk) 09:36, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
 * That was quick! Thanks. -- Mattinbgn\talk 09:39, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
 * No bother. And I've added a note at WP:CRICKET to ask for people to keep their eyes peeled for any changes that may compromise the FA status. The Rambling Man (talk)  —Preceding comment was added at 09:40, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, that's better. Although some of the recent stuff, like the wicket-keeping world record and his retirement, does need to be expanded in the body of the article. Stephen Turner (Talk) 12:18, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
 * You reckon? At present the sentence about retirement is little better than just adding "OMG Gilly just retired!!!!" as the first line... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.209.113.165 (talk) 04:38, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
 * If you contributed to the FA status of this article, well done. But the intro is terrible. A complicated recital of the years of debut doesn't fit well early on - better for the article's body. The fact he holds a world record in his primary skill is the last sentence! Why on earth are reprimands included in this section? - this in no way defines him as a cricketer or his contribution to cricket. All in all it is a great article but a lousy lead. I'd suggest a intro like this: line with name, dob, nickname, retired cricket player. Former acting captain, usual VC. Line that details wicketkeeping achievements. Line for batting achievement. ROxBo (talk) 13:34, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree. Erick880 (talk) 01:07, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Damn
Damn out for 14 today on his retirement —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.171.170.210 (talk) 06:48, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

CricInfo
Does anybody but CricInfo write about Gilchrist?

To me it seems that this article may have no NPOV. 132 of 158 referances are cricinfo. Most of these have a point of view. I suggest we find different referances inorder to help maintain the quality of this article.

Please feel free to offer comments, and suggestions,

Erick880 (talk) 05:04, 1 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Actually, most are raw scorecards and statistics. These aren't "investigative statistics" that might be deliberately misanalysed, because they just tell us what the official proceedings of the match were.  Blnguyen  ( bananabucket ) 05:15, 1 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Good point, it just looked so weird I cannot think of ever seeing that many of the same source. But yeah they are mostly just stats.

Erick880 (talk) 13:31, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

"Some fans believe the squash ball was unethical"
Does this bit really need to be there? I know "some fans" think it was unethical, but "some fans" think a lot of things. Isn't it enough to say it caused controversy but was deemed legal by the ICC? The "but some fans consider it unethical" sounds tacked on and redundant. It sounds like a "last word" for the ball controversy brigade in an argument that's already been settled70.180.211.21 (talk) 23:17, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

2008 IPL
The section "2008 Indian Premier League" has some spelling errors and isn't very clear. I've never edited anything here before so I thought I'd better not touch it. Most of the talk here seems to be quite old so I thought I'd post this and see what happens. Jack Stoner (talk) 03:21, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

comparisons with ian healy, rod marsh
Is Gilly regarded to be Australia's best WK (keeping skills as well as batting ability). His batting is certainly better than Marsh's or Helay's, although both of them were better behind the stumps. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.124.247.56 (talk) 04:54, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, the Cricinfo panel put him in their team I guess and a few other pundit polls probably. On raw glovework I don't think people would could consider him anything more than good/steady.  YellowMonkey  ( cricket photo poll! ) paid editing=POV 06:40, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Comprehensiveness
I intend/want to expand this. I don't think it is comprehensive  YellowMonkey  ( cricket photo poll! ) paid editing=POV 06:40, 14 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Expanded. Might need more things overlooked, particuarly the legacy and change in playing style. Need some refs and cleanup  YellowMonkey  ( cricket photo poll! ) paid editing=POV 03:59, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Twitter
For info, Gilchrist is on commentary now for the Big Bash League game (Adelaide vs Perth) and he's stated it's NOT him on Twitter, but an imposter. He then went on to talk about the press using the fake Twitter account to print comments posted about Stuart Broad not walking in the 2013 Ashes series.  Lugnuts  Dick Laurent is dead 11:19, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

Encyclopedic tone....
His swashbuckling 149 off 104 balls against Sri Lanka in the 2007 World Cup final is rated one of the greatest World Cup innings of all time. Swashbuckling? In a Featured Article? Hmm.... &mdash; Amakuru (talk) 21:50, 16 April 2015 (UTC)


 * I am surprised that it contains jargon. Ikhtiar H (talk) 09:25, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070424004421/http://www.cricinfo.com/db/STATS/ODIS/BATTING/ODI_BAT_FASTEST_100S.html to http://www.cricinfo.com/db/STATS/ODIS/BATTING/ODI_BAT_FASTEST_100S.html

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External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070228131154/http://www.ecb.co.uk/england/six-ashes-battles%2C961%2CBP.html to http://www.ecb.co.uk/england/six-ashes-battles,961,BP.html
 * Added tag to http://www.worldvision.com.au/media/mediarelease.asp?id=310
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130424230933/http://australiaday.org.au/corporate/about-us/national-australia-day-council.aspx to http://www.australiaday.org.au/corporate/about-us/national-australia-day-council.aspx

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Hoax Claims regarding Karl Marx
I've removed this claim - it's astonishing how long it's remained here. I've read the book, and this claim appears neither on the allegedly cited pages, nor anywhere else in it. Additionally, Gilchrist debunked this claim as a myth to a journalist as "someone taking the piss". FirefoxLSD (talk) 17:51, 2 May 2018 (UTC)

More citations needed
I have added a couple of tags. THE NEW  Immortal  Wizard  (chat) 19:30, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

Featured article?
I think that this article has many problems that compromise its status as a featured article.

Pinging and, who are the two most active editors to this article who still contribute.

Notes as of this revision:

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Adam_Gilchrist&oldid=899933943


 * 1) Reference 1 (Hindustan Times) is incomplete.
 * 2) Reference 5 (Goodreads) is not needed; it just verifies that his own book exists and seems like a circular ref.
 * 3) "Early one-day season" needs a copy-edit, as several sentences in a row all begin with "Gilchrist".
 * 4) "Test Debut" and "2001 Ashes" have several one-sentence paragraphs that could stand to be combined.
 * 5) refimprove tag in "Indian Premier League" section.
 * 6) "Middlesex" section seems short and could use expansion/combination.
 * 7) "Achievements" section seems like WP:TRIVIA with all the bullet point lists, especially "World Cup Records" which seems like pure PR puffery.

If none of my concerns are addressed, I will send this to WP:FAR. Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 04:04, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
 * These look like trivial issues. When I get some time, I'll take a look.  No need for FAR. The Rambling Man (talk) 06:02, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
 * My main concern is prose. There's a lot of "In year, blah blah blah happened." which tends to happen when older articles are added onto. A lot of parts definitely need copy editing to flow better. Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 14:17, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Not a problem. Dweller and I are both experts. Just need to find the time.  No need to rush to FAR. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:51, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
 * I'll move the IPL and Middlesex sections to where they belong in the article as a starter and might even get round to some minor tidying up at some point. I agree that there's no great rush to do the hard lifting here. Blue Square Thing (talk) 11:47, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Done bits of this, but it'll need looking at properly and I don't use cite templates, so the refs I've added will need changing format. I'm not convinced of the order of stuff btw, but I'll leave it to you chaps to sort out. Blue Square Thing (talk) 13:09, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

Books section
The article uses a "Books" section after the "References" section and I haven't noticed running across this before. Is this an alternate for a "Further reading" section? If so is it used on many articles? -- Otr500 (talk) 12:07, 7 January 2020 (UTC)