Talk:Adele Spitzeder

girlfriend
Interesting article.
 * "She returned to Munich with her girlfriend to await job offers, …" citing deutsche-biographie Which line is that, and does it suggest what 'girlfriend' may often imply (more than friends)? cygnis insignis 18:25, 12 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Oh, is it Rosa Ehinger, mentioned in historisches-lexikon-bayerns.de? Just a ref correct and substitute 'girlfriend' with 'friend' [Freundin]?


 * "he continued to pay interest in cash,"

begins a paragraph, something clipped off? cygnis insignis 19:17, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the comments. As for the second one, there is a "S" missing indeed, I added it. As for the girlfriend part, Spitzeder was indeed a lesbian as was revealed in her trial (see article at queer.de which cites Nebel's book. I added that source to the sentence as well. Regards So  Why  19:51, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Cool that you can source that. And an 'S', silly of me to miss that. Perhaps start the para with her surname instead? I can't think where  read about this particular scheme before, I will bring that source if I do. cygnis insignis 03:38, 13 January 2019 (UTC)
 * I'll have another look. Iirc, that sentence was originally part of the last paragraph. As for her personal life, it probably makes sense to add a section about it as well. Will do so shortly. Regards So  Why  09:46, 13 January 2019 (UTC)
 * , my rule of thumb is to split biography from works, which was the stage and Ponzi scheme, iirc. The article contains many surprising facts, looks like it was fun to create. cygnis insignis 10:05, 13 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Yeah. Sometimes I'm surprised how much is still missing after more that 5 million articles. Also, if you want to restructure the article, by all means be my guest. I'm happy for any help with MOS stuff Regards  So  Why  10:29, 13 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Not my forte, sections, I tend to write without them or lump into the broadest catch-all. A good many of those 5 million articles are about things no-one will care about in five years, if they do now, there is a lot of important and interesting content, on topics that are perennially interesting, that is yet to be created. Cheers again for providing some, I have a look for little matters of style. cygnis insignis 10:51, 13 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Das Gericht warf ihr vor, keine Handelsbücher geschrieben, ferner widerrechtlich Vermögen beiseite geschafft und zudem übermäßig Geld verschwendet zu haben.
 * " lack of accounts, stashing customer's money and wasting money." [the article]


 * Is there a better terms for the crimes she was convicted of, I don't read German cygnis insignis 11:31, 13 January 2019 (UTC)
 * While I both read German and am fluent in German legalese, I don't really know the English / Common Law terms for these crimes, to wit not writing any books on her accounts, removing assets unlawfully and wasting too much [of her customers'] money. Regards So  Why  12:46, 13 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Spitzeder might have moved the sack of money from under the bed to the wardrobe, without advising the account holder of the transfer of funds, something like 'financial mismanagement' rather than fraud. There are plenty of lawyers around here, someone will know this. You may wish to go the extra distance and get this promoted, its a good read. cygnis insignis 13:53, 13 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Hmm, yeah, basically. I put in a GOCE request on the article, maybe one of those gals/guys has a better idea how to phrase it. I definitely would like to GA nominate it. Regards So  Why  14:35, 13 January 2019 (UTC)

Pronunciation
It would be a good idea to add the German pronunciation to the article, as the surename in particular may look a bit exotic to an English language reader. I think it would be, but I need someone to confirm it. --Z 13:22, 5 February 2019 (UTC)


 * I have limited knowledge of IPA but as a Bavarian name it probably was pronounced Spitz-e-der and not Spit-ze-der oder Spitze-der, as it is a contraction of "Spitz(e)" (German for "top", "peak", "tip" etc.) and the common German surname Eder. So according to an online transcriber it probably should be . But I'll let someone with more experience handle this of course. Regards So  Why  13:49, 5 February 2019 (UTC)


 * Oh, it looks to be more complicated than I thought first. An audio file is also appropriate, and I can transcribe the voice in IPA if aomeone provide that. --Z 17:19, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

Adele Spitzeder's tombstone?
The photo purporting to be Adele Spitzeder's tombstone shows a stone that does not have her name, and none of the dates match the birth date or death date in the article. The article also states she was buried anonymously, but does not state when the tombstone was added, leading me to suspect there is no tombstone at her grave. Jack N. Stock (talk) 04:34, 15 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Yeah - I can believe it if there's no tombstone but the existence of a tombstone with a different name makes it unlikely. Juxlos (talk) 08:18, 15 February 2019 (UTC)
 * I think one of the points of anonymous burial is that the information of the person buried is not on the tomb stone, is it not? Burying someone "anonymously" but putting the correct dates on the tomb stone kind of defeats the purpose of anonymous burial. If you check the Nebel book, you can find the same tombstone on page 154. Regards So  Why  08:54, 15 February 2019 (UTC)
 * This would be the case of a "misleading" burial if anything - unless the names on the tombstone are generic names. But yeah, it's in the book. Juxlos (talk) 09:29, 15 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Here's the explanation, courtesy of Bayerischer Rundfunk. Her family changed her name to "Schmid" after her death and that's the family grave. Regards So  Why  09:34, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

Still does not make sense to me. It says that her name was changed to Adele Schmidt, but that name is not on the tombstone either. The document says nothing about her family having their names changed, so I would expect to read the name "Spitzeder" on the tombstone. Yupanqui (talk) 11:17, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

General comment
I've read through it, not so much straining for the picky points I often do, but just reading it. I think it's pretty good but could benefit from copyediting as I see a tendency to use more words than necessary. Suggest a peer review, at which I will be happy to participate. One "big picture" question: Did the move in Germany from the silver standard to the gold standard in the early 1870s play any part in this saga?--Wehwalt (talk) 14:01, 25 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the comments. I'll try to fix it up as much as I can with my limited skills and then submit it to peer review (hopefully by this weekend). As for the question, I did not find any source mentioning silver or gold standard. I'm no expert in this field but from what I can gather, it's unlikely because the German gold mark was only legally introduced on 4 December 1871 and was legal tender from 1873 onward, so at the time of Spitzeder's activity (1869-1872) the South German gulden was the only currency and people had no reason to suspect that another standard might exist since they also had no reason to expect the German empire to be established in 1871 (see de:Goldmark for more details). Regards So  Why  14:24, 25 April 2019 (UTC)
 * We missed getting this input a few weeks ago, where it would have been warmly received and much appreciated. But I thank you on my behalf for any continued improvements you can bring to bear on the article. I'll go ahead and section off the GA review above so as not to conflict with any future peer review input which may be placed here on the talk page. Thanks again!  Spintendo  13:05, 28 April 2019 (UTC)

Girlfriend vs. companion
My gut feeling is that companion is a better translation of Freundin when a lesbian relationship has been stated or implied, especially a live-in one. The Oxford on my phone gives "a long-term sexual partner outside marriage" as one meaning. Either term could mean lesbian or straight, however, depending on the context. I will check with some female friends. Jmar67 (talk) 11:28, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
 * I used LEO which only gives me "friend"; "girlfriend" or "pal" as normal translations. "Companion" can mean "sexual partner (non-married)" but it can also mean "pal", "associate", "accomplice" or "mate", so I think if we want readers to quickly know that this was a romantic/sexual relationship, we should use a word that clearly implies it. I'm not fixated on "girlfriend", mind you. How about "lover" instead? Regards So  Why  11:57, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Certainly less ambiguous. That occurred to me early on but I fixed on companion, which I had seen used this way before. Jmar67 (talk) 12:09, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Opted for Freundin = close friend and "companion" for context of living together. Saw one ref with Geliebte but that was not translated. We do not need to stress the lesbian angle. That will be clear. Jmar67 (talk) 00:31, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
 * In German, "Geliebte" - at least in history, did not imply living together, rather the opposite: extramarital and more or less secret, - I guess mistress would be the translation, not lover, nor always beloved which was more used for presumably unrequited love, see Beethoven's Unsterbliche Gelibte. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:31, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
 * I think it's less about stressing the lesbian angle and more about avoiding the appearance of hiding it. A "close friend" is someone dear to you but usually, at least in my understanding, not someone you have a romantic or sexual relationship with. I have multiple close friends but I only have one girlfriend. Hence, the article should not use a phrase that denotes something you usually have more than one of when talking about something you usually only have one of.I still fail to see what was wrong with "girlfriend" which Oxford defines as A person's regular female companion with whom they have a romantic or sexual relationship. On the other hand, a sexual relationship is only one of multiple definitions for companion and the definition of friend says A person with whom one has a bond of mutual affection, typically one exclusive of sexual or family relations. (emphasis added). I also don't think you should keep changing these phrases while we are discussing what to use, it just complicates things. Regards So  Why  07:22, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
 * "you usually have one of" is what makes me feel uneasy about "girlfrind", because it reads as if she had more than one, - especially the term "entourage" sounds like that. The proper German term - admittedly with irony in it - is "Lebensabschnittsgefährte", in response to "Lebensgefährte", companion for life. I don't know English usage enough to tell, but talked to people who do, and said "gilrfriend" is fine, but after having said that you shouldn't say "friend" about the same person (but just use her name). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:53, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I did not intend to bypass the discussion. I suddenly thought of "close friend" as a compromise and "boldly" decided to implement it. The term "girlfriend" has a different meaning in a male-female relationship than in a female-female one. Let me think about it some more. Have restored article. Jmar67 (talk) 11:05, 7 June 2019 (UTC)

Explain-tag
Can you explain this tag? Regards So  Why  13:33, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Can you explain what the reader is supposed to make of the statement Bavaria's King Ludwig I was infatuated with the Spitzeders and agreed to pay them 6,000 gulden yearly, with no other detail provided to elucidate the original or nature of this infatuation? EEng 17:20, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Hmm, complicated since the source does not say much more about it. I'll see if I can find another source that explains it in more detail. Regards So  Why  17:53, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Well part of the problem may be the choice of the word infatuation. My high school German tells me the source is using an idiom meaning something more like greatly favored -- infatuation is more like when teenagers fall in love. But some explanation of the reason for this favor is in order as well. EEng 19:39, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
 * My primary school Australian had that definition, with gesticulations and emphasis on the first three syllables. I think the author is leaving it to the imagination, being obliquely suggestive, and paraphrasing that in German is one way of editing it in. cygnis insignis 20:01, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
 * The better translation would probably be "to be crazy about someone" but that did not really sound neutral enough. But something along these lines would be correct, so I'm open to suggestions for different phrasing. Regards So  Why  20:07, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
 * 'a keen interest' is all I can offer, perhaps those above can do better, but I always thought it about right as it was. cygnis insignis 20:20, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Well, the parents were actors and singers, so maybe he was a "great fan"? Anyway, where's when we need her? EEng 20:53, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
 * In choir rehearsals on Friday's (and then here, defending French culture), and first I'd have to know what the phrase is in German. "great fan" sounds anachronistic for the 19th century, so perhaps we rather might ask Moonraker, my expert for idiomatic translation. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:06, 7 June 2019 (UTC)

... which made my think a request to WP:GOCE might be a good idea. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:51, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
 * From the GA review (above), this used to be "was a fan of the Spitzeders" and was changed to "infatuated by". My translation would be the somewhat literal "couldn't get enough of the Spitzeders" or "couldn't get his fill of the Spitzeders". Langenscheidt suggests "he thought the Spitzeders were brilliant", which seems good for encyclopedic tone. Jmar67 (talk) 22:04, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
 * From what I can gather, Josef Spitzeder and Betty Spitzeder-Vio were engaged by the Royal Opera House in Munich at Ludwig's behest after he saw them perform. Both were "Königliche Hofschauspieler" (i.e. Royal Court actors), which was a big deal back then. I rephrase the whole sentence now and added some info, I think it should be good now. Regards So  Why  16:23, 8 June 2019 (UTC)


 * We need to go back to the source, which says this: "Der sonst so sparsame bayerische König Ludwig I. hatte offensichtlich einen Narren an der Familie Spitzeder gefressen, denn erst stimmte er dem jährlichen Spitzengehalt des Sängerpaares von 6.000 Gulden zu..." I don't see how that can be put into "an encyclopaedic tone", and it certainly doesn't say the Spitzeders were brilliant, more that the king was unhinged by them. If there's any need to explain his generosity, then I would suggest saying Ludwig was "besotted with the Spitzeder family". Moonraker (talk) 17:00, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Considering the use of "offensichtlich" here, which is best translated as "apparently" in this context, the besotted-ment is probably more the author's interpretation of Ludwig's motives than literal infatuation. I had missed that when first writing the paragraph. I can remember finding an old source that spoke about Ludwig liking Josef's performance but I can't find it anymore. Regards So  Why  18:16, 8 June 2019 (UTC)