Talk:Adeyto

Sources?
The article presents three external links: this person's website, an article in IMDB about her, and something billed as "Peanuts interview". IMDB articles can be self-penned, and the third of these links appears not to mention her. -- Hoary (talk) 12:32, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I can not read Japanese so I am not sure if she is mentioned, however she is in one of the pictures. Just be aware she is often credited as Laura Windrath, which if going through babbelfish, may get butchered. --I Write Stuff (talk) 13:54, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm not looking at Babelfish. The page is about somebody called Uchimura Teruyoshi (or Teruyoshi Uchiyama, as en:WP's daft rules would dictate). A single photograph shows a woman; its caption identifies her as a Russian, and the text seems to say that she's played by somebody called Rōra, which may indeed be Laura.  The article is not a source for anything else about her. -- Hoary (talk) 14:42, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
 * As Hoary mentions above, the interview linked to simply mentions that a person called Laura played the part of Toscania (a Russian wife). It is a borderline case as to whether this qualifies as a verifiable reference, but I am inclined to leave it in at the moment. --DAJF (talk) 02:44, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I think it's a good enough reference for this rather trivial fact about her. What I was objecting to was the way in which this hagiography (as it then was) had no sourcing. And although it's no longer as hagiographic, it still doesn't, aside from this one source for this one TV acting role. REFIMPROVE seems mild; UNREFERENCED seems called for. -- Hoary (talk) 02:57, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
 * These here, anyone? Yukan Fuji Shimbun: http://www.zakzak.co.jp/gei/2008_04/g2008041605_all.html
 * THE TVAsahi: http://www.tv-asahi.co.jp/ss/100/girl/top.html
 * the huge Morinaga company: http://blog2.morinaga.co.jp/biscuit/2008/03/post-b87b.html
 * (same as above): http://blog2.morinaga.co.jp/biscuit/2008/04/post-b9ca.html
 * Silver Kamen http://www.silverkamen.com/silverkamen/sil_story.html
 * Primadam http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/プリマダム
 * same: http://www.ne.jp/asahi/uyan/hondana/0604puri
 * OKWave http://okwave.jp/qa3840203.html
 * JT News http://www.jtnews.jp/cgi-bin/review.cgi?TITLE_NO=4336 and much more to come. count on me!Tsurugaoka (talk) 14:51, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

The article remains wretchedly sourced. We are told such stuff as Adeyto has photographed Arai Akino, Chara, Christian Plouvier, Hayato Mizuta of brain drive, ASAKI (AOP), Juliane, Shinji of DMBQ, Kyo (Dir en grey), Mia Dambron and other artists and actors for various media with a grand total of zero evidence. If you have a specific source for a specific claim, then add that specific source to the specific claim, via a footnote. -- Hoary (talk) 15:40, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Now a list has been shoveled in. However, there's no indication of what's where.

Look, here's how you do it:


 *  Here is a sentence containing a fact that should be "sourced". 

Simple! -- Hoary (talk) 15:50, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I have a feeling Tsurugaoka is still learning the system. You or I could bang out pretty references till the cows come home, but I don't read or speak Japanese. Note of course that the sources being Japanese will never preclude their being acceptable sources. He can have all the time needed, since notability is clearly established--this is all just a clean up operation, nothing more. There is no rush. Lawrence Cohen  §  t / e  15:55, 7 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I have now inserted the sources Tsuruoka found into the article as inline citations. is not a valid reference, as it is just a web answer forum. Also, the Morinaga interviews say Adeyto was born in Germany, while the ZAKZAK article says she was born in Strasbourg, France, which adds to the confusion. More citations are still required. --DAJF (talk) 23:13, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Gutting
Can I ask why so many people are taking extra-aggressive actions on this article, relative to most? It's downright bizarre. Lawrence Cohen §  t / e  13:03, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * ha ha, I know why!! they're all friends of Just_This_Guy who was the one to kill the entire article in first place. And now since it would be too blatant if he himselfs does stuff here, his little soldier ants are trying to bite & poke at it in order to do any dammage possible, so that GUY can feel happy again. Tsurugaoka (talk) 14:10, 7 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Can you specify one of these "extra-aggressive actions"? Then the extra-aggressor might be able to give a direct answer, in addition to being described as an ant. -- Hoary (talk) 15:40, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * your answer says everything, yea, I first met you on GUY's talk right? And here you are again! About who the aggressors are, take my advice and -just look in the mirror- Tsurugaoka (talk) 15:55, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Tsurugaoka, don't let anything bait you--just focus on working up the references. Take a look at two articles I wrote, and how I formatted the references: Storm botnet and Bezhin Meadow. You can steal the formatting I have there. You want to make the inline sources like that. At least one reference to a sentence, ideally, but that level of complex is NOT required. Anyone who tries to say otherwise is wrong. But, it's a nice thing to build it out that much. Lawrence Cohen  §  t / e  15:58, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Perfect work and thank you for the offer to learn from your great articles. Now, some references talk about more than one point in this article that could be proven with that. So can I use same reference couple of times, yes? damn, we're having a very VERY prolonged Earthquake in Japan just as i type this in! Tsurugaoka (talk) 16:05, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * You certainly can reuse articles and sources more than once, to get various bits of information from them. Look at Bezhin_Meadow for example. And you're editing THROUGH an earthquake??? Gah! Lawrence Cohen  §  t / e  16:12, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * gee, the earthquake was back with two soft interludes and now the 4th one that really made me stand up to hold my book shelves, a pity I didn't have a free hand to shoot a video of it with my handy phone. but so far, if an earthquake is really bad, it will be so brutal from the very first seconds and will throw you in the air. so anything that doesn't do that doesn't move me from my keyboard. unless all the books seem to fall over me. Thanks again, I will paste the links in proper spaces in the days to come. Also there are magazines/interviews that aren't on a website, it's ok to post just a text info about the publication? or shall i scan the publications that I can find and upload them anywhere and then link here to them and hope those liks will last in time? And for example the concert she did in front of 600 people last month, does not have a web site (as not all people here waste their lives trapped in the net) even if it's quite notable so there's just flyer material. or, the Tokyo Dome concert where she was DJ for XJapan in front of 500.000 people is still too new to have print material about it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tsurugaoka (talk • contribs) 17:05, 7 May 2008 (UTC)


 * "Print only" sources are fine, as long as they meet the reliable source guidelines - Here is another guide for adding sources: WP:CITE. Also - be safe in those tremmors! Trout Ice Cream (talk) 17:47, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Print sources are always legitimate. But a concert in front of 600 people is simply not notable. That's the kind of trivia that makes people cynically suspect that she's really just a nobody with an eager fan or two pumping up her reputation. -- Orange Mike  &#x007C;   Talk  00:34, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Maybe not notable for you but indeed notable for the Japanese media that made a nation-wide report about it in the Yukan Fuji newspaper and TV wide show. It's because she was singing the traditional Japanese Enka, not whatever random music and last year the famous Enka "God" Kitajima Saburo took part in the same "Orinkai" Charity Dinner Show. When you have the richest society comming to the show, 600 is more than enough as you probably can't fit more around a limited number of tables in a hall with walls that limit it. Go figure.Tsurugaoka (talk) 03:31, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I read: your answer says everything, yea, I first met you on GUY's talk right? And here you are again! About who the aggressors are, take my advice and -just look in the mirror- Oh, they are me. Ah. Now, perhaps my intelligence may be no more than that of an ant, and perhaps this is why my answer doesn't say everything to me. Aside from the tagging (not by me, as far as I can recall) of every assertion of a movie appearance, where's the beef (or formalin or whatever)? -- Hoary (talk) 04:23, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * you are just one of them, prissy, self-important editors that make this place a bore. Tsurugaoka (talk) 11:25, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * This line of "discussion" is inappropriate. Stop it now - all of you. Please consider striking your comments that are not about the content of the article. TheRedPenOfDoom (talk) 12:00, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

I have not seen "extra-aggressive actions" on this page (ok the request for cite for every film appearance is probably a bit extreme, but still within the bounds of WP:V editors who want to add information need to be able to verify it if challenged)- any articles that are as (self-)promotional as this one is/was get (deservedly) major pruning. Trout Ice Cream (talk) 16:11, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * It hasn't been self-promotional since everyone descended on it. Nonsense like tagging EVERY film in the filmography with a tag is just plain disruptive.  Lawrence Cohen  §  t / e  16:12, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Still, the following of this trivial article with such extreme speed and force (I see it was just notability tagged yet again) in the wake of the community undoing Guy's actions is disturbing. It's literally nothing more than a clean-up job after a bad deletion was undone and notability was demonstrated. Lawrence Cohen  §  t / e  16:23, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm lost. Is cleaning up disturbing? Or is the term "clean-up" being used here in some figurative way? -- Hoary (talk) 04:23, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Lets all just concentrate on the content of the article. TheRedPenOfDoom (talk) 04:30, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Birthplace contradiction
I mentioned this in the discussion above, but will repeat it here in case it gets lost among the other points being discussed. The ZAKZAK article says she was born in Strasbourg, France, but the Morinaga interview article says she was born in Germany. I have used the ZAKZAK article as a reference source, since it appears more detailed, but this apparent contradiction will need clearing up. --DAJF (talk) 05:36, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Both birthplace and birtdate are wrong and in contradiction to imdb.org, where they are also not correct. However, it seems that she is not willing to proliferate the correct information. So for discretion I guess I should not unveil them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.149.32.132 (talk) 23:20, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

Too much of a challenge? -moved from someone's talk-
I have noticed that a couple of you (no names here) exclusively undo stuff or erase information from the Adeyto article instead of adding new one (well, except for the word Strasbourg).

So before I might officially declare your actions to be plain malevolent and disruptive, I take one more chance into good will. Since a couple of you here (except me that gets all edits undone for some reasons) know more than enough Japanese, I challenge you to kindly ADD information and citations to the Adeyto article.

You can find plenty of it, I'll give you some ideas (you would have never thought of) for example translating from http://www.zakzak.co.jp/gei/2008_04/g2008041605_all.html that states about her "fantastic (or whatever you consider appropriate but not self-praising term)" performance of Japanese Enka music during the "(6th) Orinkai Charity Dinner Show", her upcoming Album of Japanese hit songs recorded in French to be released this summer, or the mention about Adeyto having her talents for Enka being discovered by the former First Lady of Indonesia, Ratna Sari Dewi Sukarno that says "this is a miracle (feel free to cite her words)".

Yes, for a change, why not translate and add more information from the Morinaga article instead of being stuck at the fact it's saying she's born in Germany.

And I will give you few more links that I found the other day while searching for the proof DAJF needed for her regular shows, I found that one too but first let's see this interviews:

TVAsahi's Sma-Station interview http://www.tv-asahi.co.jp/ss/100/girl/top.html Tokyo Gaikokujin Book by Enterbrain Publishing http://www.enterbrain.co.jp/jp/p_pickup/2004/tokyo-series/index.html also available here: http://www.adeyto.com/index.htm/Design.php?currDir=./Print&pageType=image&image=Enterbrain1.jpg http://www.adeyto.com/index.htm/Design.php?pageType=image&currDir=./Print&image=Enterbrain2.jpg Eigasha special issue interview http://www.eigasha.com/103-sp-issue/0705/070503.html now available here: http://www.adeyto.com/index.htm/Design.php?currDir=./Print&pageType=image&image=Eigasha-Interview-1.jpg http://www.adeyto.com/index.htm/Design.php?pageType=image&currDir=./Print&image=Eigasha-Interview-2.jpg http://www.adeyto.com/index.htm/Design.php?pageType=image&currDir=./Print&image=Eigasha-Interview-3.jpg Kigyoujuku economics Magazine: http://www.adeyto.com/index.htm/Design.php?currDir=./Print&pageType=image&image=Interview-for-Kigyoujyuku_Mag.jpg

Now to what I was really searching, in order to satisfy an unnamed editor that erased the small list I made with her REGULAR TV appearences saying we can't be sure she was really regular.

I found visual proof of it unless someone can give another logical explanation for her being in the for example Waratte Iitomo studio with all different outfits and hairstyles in each picture (beware I only chose those shot in studio with the logo visible).

IITOMO FujiTV

http://www.adeyto.com/index.htm/Photo.php?currDir=./2003&pageType=image&image=Iitomo23.jpg http://www.adeyto.com/index.htm/Photo.php?currDir=./2003&pageType=image&image=Iitomo24.jpg http://www.adeyto.com/index.htm/Photo.php?currDir=./2003&pageType=image&image=Iitomo30.jpg http://www.adeyto.com/index.htm/Photo.php?currDir=./2003&pageType=image&image=Iitomo31.jpg http://www.adeyto.com/index.htm/Photo.php?currDir=./2003&pageType=image&image=iitomo32.jpg http://www.adeyto.com/index.htm/Photo.php?currDir=./2003&pageType=image&image=Iitomo37.jpg http://www.adeyto.com/index.htm/Photo.php?currDir=./2004&pageType=image&image=IItomo45.jpg http://www.adeyto.com/index.htm/Photo.php?currDir=./2004&pageType=image&image=Iitomo39.jpg http://www.adeyto.com/index.htm/Photo.php?currDir=./2004&pageType=image&image=Iitomo40.jpg http://www.adeyto.com/index.htm/Photo.php?currDir=./2004&pageType=image&image=Iitomo43.jpg http://www.adeyto.com/index.htm/Photo.php?currDir=./2004&pageType=image&image=Iitomo44.jpg http://www.adeyto.com/index.htm/Photo.php?currDir=./2004&pageType=image&image=Iitomo46.jpg

SMASTATION-3 TVASahi

http://www.adeyto.com/index.htm/Photo.php?currDir=./2003&pageType=image&image=SmaSte8.jpg http://www.adeyto.com/index.htm/Photo.php?currDir=./2003&pageType=image&image=SmaSte10.jpg http://www.adeyto.com/index.htm/Photo.php?currDir=./2003&pageType=image&image=SmaSte12.jpg http://www.adeyto.com/index.htm/Photo.php?currDir=./2003&pageType=image&image=SmaSteCr15.jpg http://www.adeyto.com/index.htm/Photo.php?currDir=./2003&pageType=image&image=SmaSteCr14.jpg http://www.adeyto.com/index.htm/Photo.php?currDir=./2004&pageType=image&image=LastSmaste3.jpg http://www.adeyto.com/index.htm/Photo.php?currDir=./2004&pageType=image&image=Smaste64.jpg http://www.adeyto.com/index.htm/Photo.php?currDir=./2004&pageType=image&image=Smaste71

Shouzaburo no Heya TBS

http://www.adeyto.com/index.htm/Photo.php?currDir=./2003&pageType=image&image=ShouzaburoOpening.jpg http://www.adeyto.com/index.htm/Photo.php?currDir=./2003&pageType=image&image=Shouzaburo_25.jpg http://www.adeyto.com/index.htm/Photo.php?currDir=./2003&pageType=image&image=Shouza32.jpg http://www.adeyto.com/index.htm/Photo.php?currDir=./2003&pageType=image&image=Shouza31.jpg http://www.adeyto.com/index.htm/Photo.php?currDir=./2003&pageType=image&image=Shouza38.jpg

K1 World Max TBS http://www.adeyto.com/index.htm/Photo.php?currDir=./2005&pageType=image&image=K1.jpg http://www.adeyto.com/index.htm/Photo.php?currDir=./2006&pageType=image&image=K1-April20062.jpg http://www.adeyto.com/index.htm/Photo.php?currDir=./2006&pageType=image&image=Adeyto_K1_06.2006.jpg http://www.adeyto.com/index.htm/Photo.php?currDir=./2006&pageType=image&image=K1_Grand_Prix_2006.jpg http://www.adeyto.com/index.htm/Photo.php?currDir=./2008&pageType=image&image=K1_Hiroshima.jpg

69 Rock Tribe FujiTV http://www.adeyto.com/index.htm/Photo.php?currDir=./2006&pageType=image&image=Adeyto_69Tribe.jpg http://www.adeyto.com/index.htm/Photo.php?currDir=./2006&pageType=image&image=RockTribe.jpg

Looking forward for how you will actually improve the article given all this publications and uncontestable proofs.Tsurugaoka (talk) 11:38, 12 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Rather than issuing "challenges", feel free to add cited information to the article yourself. If you haven't already, I do suggest that you read Verifiability, though, as self-published references and photographs aren't exactly considered reliable.
 * And regarding the comment about translating more from the Morinaga article used as a reference source for the article... It appears to me to be discussing biscuits and German preferences, so I don't think there is much more information of relevance to Adeyto that has not already been included. --DAJF (talk) 06:26, 13 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Tsuruoka's knowledge of and interest in Adeyto seems to outclass those of anyone else here, so he/she should find it a pleasure to edit the article (with verifiable content, of course). -- Hoary (talk) 06:48, 13 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Mmm...was this post of mine ant food? What a delight. Need I mention that there's NO surprise you won't do any good to the article? Sounding like pure envy meanwhile laughable till the end. Thank you for coming out.Tsurugaoka (talk) 13:41, 13 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Never having heard of Adeyto till I encountered this article, I thought I'd already done pretty good with edits such as this; I'm sorry that these disappoint you.


 * I infer that she's primarily an actress. Nothing wrong with that, and perhaps there's something wrong with me for being chronically uninterested in television. Since I am interested in photography, I was interested in earlier surprising claims, such as "A natural-born photographer and cinematographer Adeyto Rex Angeli, is well known for her work behind the camera, being an inspiration for many other artists." Turns out that she photographs the covers for singles, etc., and good for her but what I've seen there also doesn't happen to interest me much. Dozens of photographers who happen to interest me more have terrible articles here or none at all, so my time is better spent on them. All the best with this article; look on the bright side! -- Hoary (talk) 14:34, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
 * While I respect your non-interest in television, that differs from gaikokujin-talents-obsessions of mine if you want to say so, you rather not seem to invest your time in articles about photographers but stalk this trivial article and pop-up here especially to change every single post I make. This is a huge contradiction and it will be appropriate if you decide once for all on wich side of the river you want to be. If you come here to cut down (bad?) text, then you should be fair enough and impartial enough to add (good) text especially given the small amount of Japanese readers that could do it. If you don't want to ADD, why come here anyway? Is it because you wanted to revenge your pal Guy? Welldone, now it's time to stop. People like you are rather disruptive to Wikipedia. Myself I have a lot of information for many articles but being constantly attacked like that (so called newbie bashing) and being forced to give all my time here to respond to your aggressiveness, it turns me quite off to collaborate in anything else in Wikipedia, being followed by such stalkers DAJF included. If you can't come to also do good, then move on. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tsurugaoka (talk • contribs) 05:04, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Myspace
Wikipedia has Template:MySpace for adding links to MySpace, suggesting to me that links to MySpace have their place.

"WP:LINKSTOAVOID" tells us that:


 * Except for a link to a page that is the subject of the article or an official page of the article subject—and not prohibited by restrictions on linking—one should avoid: [...] # Links to social networking sites (such as MySpace) [...]

I don't know whether this page is official. Its title (in the HTML sense) is MySpace.com - Adeyto Official Myspace - Tokyo - New Wave / Lounge - www.myspace.com/adeyto (my emphasis), not that this need mean much. It says at the foot ''©2003-2008 MySpace.com. All Rights Reserved.'' which suggests that it belongs to MySpace -- though for all I know that company may impose this on every page.

The page is atrociously designed (small dark red text on patterned pink) and uninformative, but these matters seem incidental. It's also mostly in French, but that too is not an issue.

So I've just now readded this link. If there's an objection, I look forward to reading it. -- Hoary (talk) 00:40, 1 June 2008 (UTC)


 * It was me that removed the link, but thanks for the clarification. It looks like the link is acceptable since it is to a page that is the subject of the article. --DAJF (talk) 01:37, 1 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Thank you. -- Hoary (talk) 02:29, 1 June 2008 (UTC)


 * "Avoid links whose primary purpose is to sell items" - when we already have the Official Adyeto space linked, we should link to MySpace only if it is a source of important supplemental information. This does not appear to be a value add site for any user. -- The Red Pen of Doom  12:35, 6 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Of course it's all promotional, but looks moderately informative to me, at least up to the point where the background image loads and legibility plummets. The illegibility and general mixture of visual chaos+prettiness is perhaps also informative (though if so then I think not in any way that was intended). I might suggest scrapping the link to it and letting people go there via A's site, but curiously there is no conspicuous link from that to her Myspace page. -- Hoary (talk) 15:37, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
 * That then brings us back to the point of whether this is actully her site. No link from the official site? A visual artist (photographer) whose site is as cluttered and poorly laid out as any standard MySpace page? How "official" is this MySpace page anyway?-- The Red Pen of Doom  21:14, 6 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I look at the Myspace page and I look at the self-selected publicity photos and I see the same, uh, esthetic behind them. Don't you? -- Hoary (talk) 22:07, 7 July 2008 (UTC)


 * His official page has a link to that Myspace page right there on the main navigation menu, second item from the left. --Enric Naval (talk) 22:30, 7 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, you're right. -- Hoary (talk) 22:39, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

We only give 'em one link to an "official page"; otherwise we'd have four or five links to their official pages at MySpace, Facebook, YouTube, etc., etc. There's a link to her official official page; that's all we should allow, per WP:EL. -- Orange Mike  |   Talk  03:09, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

If what you say is true, then why is this similar situation allowed here? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gackt —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tsurugaoka (talk • contribs) 05:33, 8 July 2008 (UTC) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoshiki_%28musician%29 please don't make me to look up all Wikipedia pages that have double link to official site and to myspace because I am ready to do it. Besides, while the official site has info just in Japanese, Myspace has is info in French and English, talks about her carrer and gives insight in other works not commented on the official site. I am just wondering why you all enjoy chopping around this article but never add any info. Tsurugaoka (talk) 05:03, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Just because other pages havent been corrected doesnt give permission to this article to not comply. -- The Red Pen of Doom  11:19, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I see that you already erased myspace on those pages. But I really wonder how long it will last, there will be people arguing against it for sure so let's see if your edit will be largely accepted or not, if yes, please do it here too. The fact that Wikipedia provides the Myspace template lets us however believe it's not a crime to have it on article's page.

In fact, instead of just having here the Myspace link, it would be even better to enrich the article itself with text info provided by that official Myspace. There's plenty of info on her career that we don't have here, right? So I am looking forward for how you will add the info here.Tsurugaoka (talk) 13:09, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
 * 1) We have a link for her official website; we don't put multiple "official websites" in the External Links sections, per WP:EL. The template is for those very rare cases where a subject doesn't have any more formal "official website" than their MySpace page; most such subjects, bluntly, are not notable enough to actually have Wikipedia articles. 2) We certainly won't "enrich" the article with information from a MySpace page, because that's notoriously not a reliable source. -- Orange Mike  &#x007C;   Talk  13:35, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
 * since when are clearly stated "Official Sites" not reliable? then what IS reliable? Tsurugaoka (talk) 01:35, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Since forever - there is no editorial oversite on 'official websites' - on my website I can say anything I want. Please read WP:V and WP:RS-- The Red Pen of Doom  01:48, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Meanwhile all internet is composed of mainly official sites. Yes, Sony Music can say what they want on their site. Yes, a newspaper can do it too, it can even mistake people's names or personal info but this will be granted here, yes? How about IMDB? that is even worse, a site written at random just like Wikipedia, however IMDB is holy enough to be The Rule here. come up with a better reason pls.Tsurugaoka (talk) 09:05, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Just to take one of your points, no, IMDB is not taken particularly seriously here. (Personally, I regard it as pretty good for certain kinds of information, worthless for others.) But more broadly, your wild exaggerations here (as well as certain other remarks elsewhere on this page) are making you less persuasive, not more. &para; It seems to me that WP:EL supports your point of view, and I have written as much below. It's possible that others here will disagree. Well, give them a day or two to agree or disagree, and if they disagree then feel free to present reasoned disagreement with their disagreement. -- Hoary (talk) 10:12, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree with Orange Mike, the WP:EL guideline doesn't say at all that we should link to all the pages considered official by the subject of the article. Just one is enough. It's obvious that WP:EL's intended purpose is to limitate external links as much as possible, so multiple links would against the letter and against the spirit of the guideline. --Enric Naval (talk) 13:55, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

curiously, all Myspace links were restored here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gackt and your edit was considered "Vandalism" so I see that there is no "wikipedia" absolute rule but it's just the personal choice of a random editor to prefer extensively chopping of an article they didn't write while cherishing their own works. more examples of Myspace inclusion next to bunch of other official sites: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korn http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dir_en_grey do you really think you will be able to take them all down? I wanna see you doing it, to prove your impartiality. Tsurugaoka (talk) 02:02, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
 * done and done. (and the above has been re-done)-- The Red Pen of Doom  02:28, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
 * done? what? what are you talking about? I see myspace everywhere! oh, and one more if you like to play, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coldplay —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tsurugaoka (talk • contribs) 08:28, 9 July 2008 (UTC)


 * "done and done" is a phrase used (at least in american english) to signify that the task that you are asking about has been thoroghly completed. sorry for any miscommunications. -- The Red Pen of Doom  11:16, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Can we all cool down, please?

WP:EL has been invoked. The page has at least three things to say that seem directly relevant. These are (in my numbering):


 * 1) What should be linked / 1. Articles about any organization, person, web site, or other entity should link to the official site if any.
 * 2) Links to be considered / 4. Sites which fail to meet criteria for reliable sources yet still contain information about the subject of the article from knowledgeable sources.
 * 3) Links normally to be avoided / Except for a link to a page that is the subject of the article or an official page of the article subject—and not prohibited by restrictions on linking—one should avoid: / 10. Links to social networking sites (such as MySpace), chat or discussion forums/groups (such as Yahoo! Groups), USENET newsgroups or e-mail lists.

The first says nothing about additional "official" sites. The second seems to me to invite inclusion of a link to this Myspace page. The third seems to me to invite it: the disqualification of Myspace pages has an exception for "an official page of the article subject" (my emphasis).

Have I overlooked something here? -- Hoary (talk) 08:58, 9 July 2008 (UTC)


 * 1 is intended to be the sole exception to our general restriction against linking to non-reliable sources, since the subject's own official site is bound to be a nest of POV and COI violations. It permits linking to "the" official site. That to me does not constitute license to link to a raft of additional "official sites". -- Orange Mike  &#x007C;   Talk  17:13, 9 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes indeed the first clause talks of the official site, singular; but it does not go further and explicitly say that the official site should be limited to one. The second one seems to allow a site such as this. The third rules out Myspace except for a site such as this. There's been no suggestion that I recall of linking to any "raft" of additional "official sites"; the question is of whether to link to a single additional page. I'm about equally puzzled by the determination of one user to add this and by that of the other party to remove it. The more I think about it, the more I think it should stay: even if it's short on factual information, its idiosyncratic design esthetic says a lot about its subject. (Still, as it is after all linked from the official official site, its deletion hardly matters.) -- Hoary (talk) 07:30, 10 July 2008 (UTC)


 * No one is talking about a "raft" of official sites. Official sites should be linked to per WP:EL, so the Myspace link should be here.  If someday there are ten official sites, the issue can be revisted, but as for now there is no reason this article should seek to make itself not comply with WP:EL so the Myspace link should be here.  Additionally, this should be looked at in perspective.  We are talking about a single link, and using it in the standard way used throught the encyclopedia.  It's not something to get worked up over. 2005 (talk) 22:26, 12 July 2008 (UTC)


 * My concern is that we have a very clear policy of not linking to non-reliable sources, except that we allow a link to the subject's own official site out of fairness, regardless of the unreliability of such sites. What I find is that people can and do put links to two, three, four or more official sites of the subject to "illuminate" the subject's POV. Thus, I believe we are supposed to keep an article to one and only one official, NPOV-violating website of the subject. That's my perception, 2005; what's yours? -- Orange Mike  &#x007C;   Talk  14:03, 14 July 2008 (UTC)


 * There is no a in the guideline. It uses the word the and if any.  There is a widespread consensus that this means multiple official sites should be linked.  If you think the guideline should be more clear, I'd agree with you, but that should be taken up on the talk page of WP:EL.  At this point though it is very standard procedure to link to more than one official site (in English) when they offer something different, rather than just navigation.  Musical Myspaces also have a broad consensus supporting them.  personally I think Myspace is a plague on the world, but right now the guideline and widespread support by editors leads to them being linked, so there is no reason this article should be different.  It's just one link, not five or ten.  (A more significant issue here is the other official site has two links pointing to it, that does violate the external links guideline. 2005 (talk) 17:25, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Professorship
There appears to be an edit war that's partly over whether 教授 is best translated as "professor".

First, I agree, "professor" is a rare honor in nations such as Britain, where a university department may have lecturers, senior lecturers, readers, teaching fellows and so forth, and perhaps one in ten tenured teachers is a professor, a post that normally requires publication of several acclaimed books (or equivalent).

Secondly, Japanese terms often have official English (or quasi-English) equivalents, and the latter routinely stretch the meanings of what anglophones think of as English words. Thus for example 市, a suffix that generally just seems to mean a rather arbitrarily demarcated more or less built-up area, is routinely translated as "city", bringing hilarious results such as "Sado City". (As Americans straightfacedly call Wasilla a "city", such inflation was not born in Japan.)

Let's turn to 教授. There are loads of them in Japan. Here for example are the tenured teaching staff of one department of one Japanese university: the great majority are 教授. And here's the English version of the same thing: note how the huge majority of these people are "professor".

We have to accept that many words that were once only used selectively ("city", "professor") are now used unselectively in at least one area, even if still selectively in another. If an accredited university calls somebody a "professor", then she's a university professor, bizarre though this may seem. -- Hoary (talk) 14:38, 9 November 2009 (UTC)


 * OK, thanks for the clarification. I only just posted a question about this over at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Japan‎. I was concerned that her position was being unnecessary inflated, but if that's what the university calls her, then we will probably have to go along with that. --DAJF (talk) 14:56, 9 November 2009 (UTC)


 * To be certain, you'd have to look at the university's English-language page(s). I found two links to this/these; both were broken. This is interesting: it shows that, atypically, only a minority of teachers are 教授. And yes, she's in this minority, so perhaps she's closer to a [strictly defined] professor than are the majority of 教授. More oddly, most of the teachers listed handle a number of courses, whereas she only teaches something called 主科実技: I think I understand the ingredients of this compound, but its meaning eludes me. There's a link to her "New BLOG", but this doesn't seem to say anything about her teaching or position. (It does, however, link to this bilingual explanation of her department.) -- Hoary (talk) 01:01, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

English name of university
Reverting name of institution to the official version available on the English page here (look it up D, before being uninformed as usual) http://english.souzou.ac.jp/ you can observe same name in the two links provided by Hoary (the department & the new blog). DAJF, though you love to mess up my edits, pls.stop linking to that outdated wikipedia onliner article since it's rather an unreliable source given the false statements it provides about vital things like president's name or institution name, official links are the reliable ones in this case. Tsurugaoka (talk) 11:49, 11 November 2009 (UTC)


 * This page starts off with this image, which does indeed say "Souzou Gakuen University". The university's top page also has a graphic that says the same; but at the foot an image that has the longer name, and at the top left another image that also has this. It also has what looks like a link, "English", that doesn't go anywhere but that's supposed to lead to english.souzou.ac.jp. Perhaps the university has recently changed its name, but if so it certainly does not make this clear. Its English-language history page ends: 2004 University of Creation; Art, Music & Social Work started. / 2005 Souzou Gakuen Daigaku Attached High School established. -- Hoary (talk) 13:43, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

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