Talk:Adi Da/Archive 16

Craig Lesser, Louis Lesser, Brainwashing, Adi Da real estate, Geothermal fields and alternative energy companies
Does anyone have any reliable sources on Craig Lesser, Louis Lesser, their real estate in Adi Da territory, or their mineral and energy rights in the Adi Da area geothermal fields? PPdd (talk) 00:19, 31 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Craig was a bit of a honcho within Adidam. What was going on with the geothermal fields stuff is that Franklin didn't want the geothermal project to happen in the first place. It would bring money and people into the county, making the area less secluded. Multiple avenues were attempted to derail it, including trying to get rights that would trump the geothermal company. There were also scare stories put out into the county such as claims that lake county would be enshrouded in sulfurous smelling fog. Ceremonies and prayers were done as well. All came to naught. 69.237.71.170 (talk) 21:52, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
 * The geothermal rights of the Mountain of Attention Retreat Sanctuary and as much mineral rights as possible were acquired to protect that site. They didn't want a geothermal plant going in across the road. 69.237.71.170 (talk) 21:52, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Brainwashing, Phenobarbital
Can anyone recommend reliable source reading on Brainwashing techniques used by Craig Lesser in Adi Da, or on use of phenobarbital to create the appearance of dementia, memory loss, or vertigo, e.g., to gain power of attorney, or attorney in fact status to sign grant deeds? PPdd (talk) 17:41, 31 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Craig never used anything like that on Franklin. Franklin did more than enough to addle himself. Franklin's use of downers was to keep his anxiety down. The "Lord of all the Worlds" needed tranquilizers to function and Frank consumed pot. Franklin didn't want his signature on things. Craig himself liked pot. He didn't have the most perfect memory. Mostly Craig was doing what he could to stay "close to the man" and the rest of the time he was hustling for a living. I don't know if this helps.

Is there any editor who is in Lake County who can check county records?
Is there any editor who is in Lake County who can check county records so I can verify what an acknowledged reliable source is saying, which otherwise seems so unbelievable that I do not want to include it in the article, unless an editor can actually check the primary source records to verify what the secondary source to be used for Wiki is saying? PPdd (talk) 00:27, 31 May 2011 (UTC)


 * this is very unclear. And your previous questions, above, seem to not have to do with the article here, and are therefore not actually appropriate. This is not the place for "general discussion" of the topic, or message boarding. I would suggest that if you have a proposed addition to the article, posit it here, and then perhaps ask for additional help sourcing it. Though really, it will probably come down to you doing the leg work, and not someone else. Remember also, we don't break news here, ie "original research." We encapsulate accepted reporting of events as documented by acceptable second- and third-party sources.Tao2911 (talk) 13:07, 31 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Re "seem to not have to do with the article here, and are therefore not actually appropriate" - Before Adi Da got it ALL, Louis Lesser owned a lot of real estate in Adi Da's controlled city, in the large number of corporate names of his huge number of corporations, which was all grant deeded to Adi Da or its members, as well as owning engergy rights for the geothermal fields on and surrounding the Adi Da controlled real estate, what is called "the richest geothermal area in California". Louis Lesser's son, Craig Lesser, was alleged to be the #2 in Adi Da, and to be involved in kidnapping and brainwashing and the use of drugs in doing so, according to the source in the linked Wikipedia article. There are old pre-internet small paper news sources, which are still reliable, that say some pretty wild things about all of this, including that Craig Lesser's signature was forged on grant deeds to Adi Da, and signed by "attorney in fact", which is not a legal transfer to Adi Da, all before his unwitnesed and uninvestigated accidental death in Lake County. Craig Lesser also appears associated with international fraudsters in these small papers, and to have bilked his father out of a huge sum over the years. Before writing what these news sources say, since it is so unusual, I would like to verify it before including it with the reliable secondary source as reference. PPdd (talk) 17:25, 31 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Your syntax is unclear: presumably you mean Craig Lesser died an unwitnessed and uninvestigated accidental death. Adi Da Samraj died of natural causes before several witnesses, and in Fiji rather than California. Are you saying the Daists were victims of the younger Lesser's scheme, or were they part of it? Timothy Horrigan (talk) 02:58, 26 August 2011 (UTC)


 * There is some very limited property info available on the Lake County government's website to anyone: you can see who the sellers and buyers were, basically. Someone named Craig Lesser did make some real estate transactions between 1996 and 2004.  One of them involved selling a property to a local dentist who is an Adidam devotee.  The dentist in turn also made some transactions.   But there is nothing that looks like a conspiracy, aside from the fact that Lesser was dealing with mortgage companies. I found nothing which involved an Adidam corporate entity aside from a tax lien against the Adidam Emporium, which is a Daists mail order house. Digging through the property records might in fact be original research, by the way. Timothy Horrigan (talk) 03:22, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
 * as already stated below, none of this really matters for this page. There is no independent source or coverage of this, so really, there's no point going much more into it at this time. Even if there were, still highly questionable for inclusion.Tao2911 (talk) 23:09, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Well, such allegations certainly add to the already questionable modus of Adi Da and his minions, but unless you have this stuff already discussed in an acceptable source (and some unsubstantiated rumor in a small town newspaper three decades ago, if it exists, would hardly count), there is nothing to do with it here. That Louis Lesser page is a right mess, and if anyone cared to that entire section on Craig could be gutted. Note that the Miller lawsuit against Da never went to court, and it is sourced and discussed in the Da page as is - and not just from the court papers themselves, but by news orgs and books (ie secondary and tertiary sources). Again, all these allegations MAY, I repeat MAY, be true. But you have absolutely no Wikipedia-worthy sources saying anything about this. You are simply drawing a series of conclusions, ON YOUR OWN, with no substantiation. That is 'original research.' I suggest you become an investigative reporter - then I will happily use your published article as a source here.Tao2911 (talk) 16:53, 1 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks, and you are absolutely correct that "unless... discussed in an acceptable source... there is nothing to do with it here... no Wikipedia-worthy sources saying anything about this". I am not "drawing conclusions on my own", however, since I am getting them from others saying the same thing independently of one another, such as in the plently of (unusable at Wiki) primary source document images linked to in this thread here, and others like them about Craig and his corporate partners Gamnboa and Korem, but I can't find secondary source documents to use at Wikipedia. The number of aliases used by Craig Lesser's partners' Korem (Pedley), Gamboa, and Rooks on their joint corporate filings with Craig] confuses a search for secondary sources, which may exist under aliases not serached for. PPdd (talk) 17:07, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

I brought the Craig Lesser mention at least within the general bounds of wikipedia - though it really still needs a secondary source. And so here, you are bringing up some whacked out, New Age conspiracy theory thread on a chat room to back up your argument? Dude - in plain English: there needs to be a reliable news story about this, laying it all out, connecting all the dots FOR US, not BY US, or there is nothing more to talk about. So, again, this is NOT a chat room. Take your theories back to "quatloos.com" and have fun. In the meantime...Tao2911 (talk) 17:15, 1 June 2011 (UTC)


 * The land in Lake County was purchased in the 1970's mostly by a guy named Dennis Duff who was cut off by his family for it and had to work for a living for the rest of his life as a result. IIRC Three other plots of land were acquired over 30 years, to protect the core property. The Adidam community has had people come to the parking lot to beat up members of the group for fun. There have been people who sneak onto the property to set fires. People have fired random shots and fired guns into the air late at night just to bother them. In that way, Adidam is like anything else. There are nuts out there who want to do unpleasant things. In other words, the group has good reason to want to purchase land around them. Another part of that effort to protect the property and members was to have members and friendlies buy the homes nearby. That's sensible. 69.237.71.170 (talk) 21:52, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Look, I'm quite critical of Adidam where it's warranted. I was the one who kept bringing the Mark Millar lawsuit material back from the dead. I did that because I think it helps everyone, including current, former and potential members to evaluate the group and understand what really happened back there. But this bit here about Craig Lesser and wild tales of conspiring corporations has no merit. Yeah, I looked at the quatloos web site posts. Everyone there thinks that stuff is junk too. 69.237.71.170 (talk) 21:52, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Fijian citizenship?
On December 4, 2011, someone named "Bulabrian" tried to add a comment about Adi Da Samraj's Fijian citizenship: his/her edit was promptly reverted by the ever-vigilant Tao2911. I have seen a video of a ceremony on Naituba Island where Adi Da Samraj was given Fijian citizenship by local officials. His Fijian citizenship was also mentioned in various Adidam publications. Those are all self-published sources which wouldn't pass muster with Tao2911, and it is a minor point anyway. He never renounced his U.S. citizenship and he visited his native land many times after taking Fijian citizenship. Timothy Horrigan (talk) 15:13, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually there is a non-self-published source for Ad Da's Fijian citizenship: an obituary published in a Fijian newspaper. However, this info probably came from Adidam, and the tone of the obit is certainly too positive for Tao2911's taste. Timothy Horrigan (talk) 17:02, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
 * http://www.fijitimes.com/story.aspx?id=107501 Fiji Times ONLINE. "Spiritual leader passes on Friday, November 28, 2008 Update: 4:30PM Adi Da Samraj, leader of a spiritual community based at Naitauba in Lau, passed away at his home on the island on Thursday. Adi Da Samraj, 69, established Naitauba as his principal teaching retreat in 1983 and became a Fiji citizen in 1993." GangofOne (talk) 06:16, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Links
Editors spent a lot of time coming to consensus, on the page in total, and on the link question in particular. We have an obvious unnamed recent partisan who came and (as periodically occurs) tried to include biased, pro-Da material, removing sourced info and extemporizing elsewhere disregarding sources, with weasel words etc. This person likewise added a bunch of pro-Da links. I removed them; this person then put some back. We addressed this collectively in the past. It was agreed to remove ALL pro- and anti- Da site links, and just leave the Adidam link. These other links are found there. This leaves the page clearly neutral, as evaluated by a host of veteran editors, who actually deemed it a "Good" page. It is a high bar to meet. Changes should be significant sourced content changes which meet the highest WP standards, or minor fixes, of which there have been many good ones over the months.Tao2911 (talk) 22:18, 22 April 2015 (UTC)
 * just realized our unnamed devotee now has a handle. Other editors, please stand by. Again, the page has been signed off on and mostly stable for years. No new sources here - just someone who doesn't like the sound of those established (independent) sources.Tao2911 (talk) 22:28, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

Whomever was trying to put up other website links relative to Da... it might be useful too understand the way in which Wikipedia works via consensus. As one of the editors working this page,and who disagrees with Tao on his point of view relative to Adi Da,I think there was a fair compromise reached on this matter. Rather than put various pro or con website links up relative to Adi Da up, it was agreed that the link to the Adidam website was the best way to do this. So it is not a "battle" worth fighting for, in my feeling.Jasonriverdale23 (talk) 14:14, 7 May 2015 (UTC)Jasonriverdal23Jasonriverdale23 (talk) 14:14, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

A Classic Example of the Wikipedia concept of References
There are certain claims by "Adi Da" that give him gravitas that are false... but... they are documented here by "references" (ooohhh aaahhh) which are simply books that quote Adi Da making the false claim.

My knowledge is first hand, I know people directly in all the organizations involved, but since I have not written a book, it's "Original Research" (hisssss) and so how can I contradict a book ? I'd like to just insert the word "allegedly" but I think that will simply be deleted by the next Adi Da fan who reads it.

A lot of the page is clearly written by Adi Da fans, as ironically the text of the page casts doubt on other teachers in exactly the same way, lol. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.122.66.138 (talk) 22:12, 21 April 2014 (UTC)


 * I guess it's in the eyes of the beholder; although if you read carefully, you'll see how every claim he or others make is couched that way, which is to say they are claims, not independent realities. As emphatically NOT an Adi Da fan, I worked pretty hard fighting, and working WITH, many quite dogmatic devotees to get this page into a neutral shape. It used to read as a straight up Adidam pamphlet. I ended up reading about 30 sources (that's just books; dozens more web sources), including all independent appraisals and histories out there, to get a full picture of this guy (whom I consider utterly pathological, and pretty much a menace.) I feel that conclusion (he's nuts) is fully possible from reading this entry - as is thinking he might indeed be the sole embodiment of God, if you are open to such notions (anyone who believes he is the most enlightened being who ever lived, as this article clearly states he claimed, is in mine and I think most people's eyes either pathologically lying or profoundly psychologically broken.) It's been reviewed numbers of times by senior editors, who finally signed off on it as a "Good" page, which is quite an accomplishment if you know how that works. If you have new sources, or specific points you'd like to discuss, bring it, by all means! Otherwise...Tao2911 (talk) 15:44, 23 April 2014 (UTC)


 * This might be a reference to "He then returned to India for a month-long visit in early 1969, during which Swami Muktananda authorized him to initiate others into Siddha Yoga." First, "Siddha Yoga" did not exist until 1974. Second, Da's claim is that Muktananda appeared in his mind in a vision and told him to teach (in "Knee of Listening" which I no longer own). There is no corroboration of this from Muktananda or his group, and all other people who taught on Muktananda's behalf were told to do so verbally. 162.205.217.211 (talk) 20:41, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

(To the above, I have a 1973 copy of The Knee of Listening, using the words "Siddha Yoga" as taught by Baba Muktananda, so this term was in use before 1974. Fact Check) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.208.86.124 (talk) 02:45, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100327071307/http://wilber.shambhala.com:80/html/misc/adida_update.cfm to http://wilber.shambhala.com/html/misc/adida_update.cfm/

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External links modified
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 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://lakeconews.com/content/view/6664/764/
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Sources for art exhibition in New York
Hi Tao, I noticed you removed the sentences about the art exhibition in New York because of a lack of citations or references. As you know it is unusual for an art gallery to keep a full list of exhibitions going back a number of years. Below are a number of sources announcing the art exhibition held at the Tagore Gallery of Adi Da's art. These are non-Adidam sources. Hopefully that will be sufficient to put back a simple sentence about the New York exhibition. Thanks.

https://issuu.com/sundaramtagoregallery/docs/samraj

http://www.sundaramtagore.com/attachment/en/575562f5cfaf34762c8b4568/Press/5755639ecfaf34762c8b7528

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Sundaram-Tagore-Gallery/159018997454676

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMT_060UoUY

https://www.artslant.com/ny/events/show/119392-orpheus-and-linead

jasonriverdaleJasonriverdale (talk) 18:04, 3 August 2017 (UTC)