Talk:Adnan Oktar/Archive 3

Historical revisionism template
why did you readd the Historical revisionism template? He contests he ever was a Holocaust denier, which I don't know if true, but from the article it seems evident that he most certainly is not now. What reason is there to keep that template?-- Orwellianist (talk) 19:06, 24 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Dear Orwellianist, I hope you are well. Please don't take it personally. We merely disagree. IMHO Oktar was a revisionist, even if he disputes this. The evidence for this is overwhelming, as the article itself makes clear. If he no longer has revisionist views, or publishes revisionism, that is good but it doesn't mean the tag should be removed. Best regards, George Custer&#39;s Sabre (talk) 04:59, 25 November 2015 (UTC)


 * George Custer&#39;s Sabre, of course, there is nothing to take personally. In your opinion Oktar was a Holocaust denier. Fine. That's my opinion as well, he is probably lying when he says that that book was written by one of his friends, Nuri Özbudak. That's why I didn't remove those parts from the Holocaust denial and affirmation section. That section details the situation regarding that. But the problem is, Category names, list, and navigation templates do not carry disclaimers or modifiers, and they are unable to convey such nuances. Their use is especially sensitive in the case of biographies of living persons, see WP:BLPCAT. Holocaust denial is a serious charge, and a crime in several countries. If there is a good case to be made that he engaged in it in the past, then by all means the article should cover it relying on the sources, which it already does currently. I am merely saying that we cannot add him to Holocaust denier categories or navigation templates when he repeatedly reaffirms it and denies that a denial took place in his part. That would be in violation of WP:BLP. Even if we accept that there is no question that he was a holocaust denier (which we cannot, considering the severity of the charge the evidence is not enough), even then, there is no question that he is not one now, and adding such categories / navigation templates gives the impression that he is currently one. As I said, the problem with them is they are unable to convey nuances, and their use must be avoided in particular on the biographies of living persons if there is doubt.--Orwellianist (talk) 13:29, 25 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Dear Orwellianist, I hope you are fine. This is a very thorough and helpful explanation and I can now see you are right and that I was in error. Thank you. Please let me undo my edit. Thanks and regards, George Custer&#39;s Sabre (talk) 04:57, 26 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Thank you very much for the very mature response. All the best, Orwellianist (talk) 07:14, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

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But this does not mean that these accusations are true until determined by the courts.
All accusations listed in the article can not be listed until determined by the courts, because any one can accuse anyone. If I accused someone, that does not mean that people can say that he is a criminal. that is not fair.

It is neutral and fair to add this sentence to the listed accusations "But this does not mean that these accusations are true until determined by the courts."

Thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ahmedsami1406h (talk • contribs) 00:14, 30 September 2016 (UTC)


 * I think that I will stop working on wikipedia because there are accusations and aspersions about Muslim scientists like Harun Yahya (Adnan Oktar) and I tried to add this sentence "But this does not mean that these accusations are true until determined by the courts." and this is the neutral and fair but I was blocked for two days and then seven days and my edit was ignored. This is not neutralism. And this is not fairness. So, mostly, I will stop working on wikipedia Insha'ALLAH.


 * Why Some people are misreported and when someone want to say neutral word, he is blocked. Is that an intentionally misreporting about Adnan Oktar or what?


 * People who say fabrications abuse themselves before they abuse the people who are misreported. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ahmedsami1406h (talk • contribs) 04:32, 14 October 2016 (UTC)


 * The truth is more valuable than wikipedia account. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ahmedsami1406h (talk • contribs) 00:48, 15 October 2016 (UTC)


 * Oktar has nothing to do with science. MaxKer (talk) 02:34, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

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Sami Olcun (Adnan Oktar) & Twitter Bitcoin Account
If anybody has details on the Bitcoin handle ownership issue, please add. The photo of Adnan Oktar was on the logo (along with a Cheetah & Turkish flag), for a day before ownership was restored to Roger Ver. AhmetP4P (talk) 21:47, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Sami Olcun?
The bitcoin handle was owned by a Turkish teen, his name was Oktay not Oktar. Sami Olcun of Bitcoin is tentatively associated with Adnan Oktar & he was credited in Adrian Lamo documentary (Scam Story) IMDB RoniStones (talk) 22:29, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

Muslim Creationist
In Greg Cootsona book: Negotiating Science and Religion In America: Past, Present, and Future 1st Edition ISBN 1138067393, Sami Olcun is listed as a Muslim Creationist MiCaCadenas (talk) 15:40, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Adnan Hoca Aktar Sami Oclun Harun Yahya
I am wondering if anybody have more details on this mystical imam?


 * What was his birth date-name?
 * Why does he have lots of names?
 * How Many languages does he speak?
 * Does he own a legal brothel in Turkey?
 * Does he remove the sins of prostitutes/customers?
 * Are we allowed to visit him in prison? where do we go? Biblebunts (talk) 09:44, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
 * He not sharing his kittens in a brothel Peacetowikied (talk) 08:48, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

"Sami Olcun" name is wrong. should change
Hello,

Somebody has put a photo of "Adnan Oktar"'s to IMDB. And as you know, IMDB is also contribution based platform. And with showing that as reference in here, somebody has made a fake connection between unreal "Sami Olcun" (with film "scam story") and "Adnan Oktar", in that fake reference link (https://www.imdb.com/name/nm9842306/). Also there is no photo or mention to Adnan Oktar anymore. Him's original "who is Adnan Oktar" page is in here; https://www.harunyahya.com/bilgi/adnan-oktar-kimdir. I tried to change real information in Adnan Oktar's Wiki page, but i couldn't get success, my all contributions are reverted. Even after i give references about it.

So there is some questions, how "Sami Olcun" name is accepted as contribution? And how should i write real informations about Adnan Oktar in here? Which is already wrote in this own web page https://www.harunyahya.com/bilgi/adnan-oktar-kimdir — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sercan kortan (talk • contribs) 18:30, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Here a book source And personal sources are not reliable Shadow4dark (talk) 18:46, 21 August 2020 (UTC)


 * I checked that book, but book author also didn't gave a reference for that name. In Turkey, Adnan Oktar is only known as "Harun Yahya" and "Adnan Hoca" only. "Sami Olçun" is not relatable with him, i am hearing Sami Olcun name first time. also there is no named "Sami Olçun" material / document related with him, only exception is a sentence from this small book. Should that count as true information? Isn't that logic opening a way for possibility to easy corruptions on documents? Sercan kortan
 * You are right, 1 random source is not good enough and IMDB is not reliable Shadow4dark (talk) 04:48, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

- Thanks for your contribution. Sercan kortan —Preceding undated comment added 18:34, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

Adnan Hoca Aktar Sami Oclun Harun Yahya
I am wondering if anybody have more details on this mystical imam?


 * What was his birth date-name?
 * Why does he have lots of names?
 * How Many languages does he speak?
 * Does he own a legal brothel in Turkey?
 * Does he remove the sins of prostitutes/customers?
 * Are we allowed to visit him in prison? where do we go? Biblebunts (talk) 09:44, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
 * He not sharing his kittens in a brothel Peacetowikied (talk) 08:48, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

"Sami Olcun" name is wrong. should change
Hello,

Somebody has put a photo of "Adnan Oktar"'s to IMDB. And as you know, IMDB is also contribution based platform. And with showing that as reference in here, somebody has made a fake connection between unreal "Sami Olcun" (with film "scam story") and "Adnan Oktar", in that fake reference link (https://www.imdb.com/name/nm9842306/). Also there is no photo or mention to Adnan Oktar anymore. Him's original "who is Adnan Oktar" page is in here; https://www.harunyahya.com/bilgi/adnan-oktar-kimdir. I tried to change real information in Adnan Oktar's Wiki page, but i couldn't get success, my all contributions are reverted. Even after i give references about it.

So there is some questions, how "Sami Olcun" name is accepted as contribution? And how should i write real informations about Adnan Oktar in here? Which is already wrote in this own web page https://www.harunyahya.com/bilgi/adnan-oktar-kimdir — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sercan kortan (talk • contribs) 18:30, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Here a book source And personal sources are not reliable Shadow4dark (talk) 18:46, 21 August 2020 (UTC)


 * I checked that book, but book author also didn't gave a reference for that name. In Turkey, Adnan Oktar is only known as "Harun Yahya" and "Adnan Hoca" only. "Sami Olçun" is not relatable with him, i am hearing Sami Olcun name first time. also there is no named "Sami Olçun" material / document related with him, only exception is a sentence from this small book. Should that count as true information? Isn't that logic opening a way for possibility to easy corruptions on documents? Sercan kortan
 * You are right, 1 random source is not good enough and IMDB is not reliable Shadow4dark (talk) 04:48, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

- Thanks for your contribution. Sercan kortan —Preceding undated comment added 18:34, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

Sources list
Retain this thread indefinitely, do not archive --Geoffry Thomas (talk) 08:13, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Rather than further circular argument, it may be useful to focus on which main sources are considered reliable and to what extent they can be used if the source is a strong advocate of one viewpoint. As an example of this in action Talk:Israel Shamir has a list of agreed sources that were used to re-build this controversial subject after it was reduced to a stub. With such a basic list of agreed sources, justifying text for inclusion creates far less heat. Fæ (talk) 09:18, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Some initial suggestions, online in english (particularly for the incidental biographical and contextual information): --Geoffry Thomas (talk) 09:59, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
 * (Reformated only, please add opinions on reliability or suggested limitations due to bias next to each source. Fæ (talk) 10:09, 23 November 2010 (UTC))

1-10
  
 * I am unable to find this listed on WorldCat. The link appears to be to the abstract rather than the article. The journal is and I am unclear on how significant or respected this journal is, there are very few citations to the Journal listed in Google Scholar. Fæ (talk) 10:27, 23 November 2010 (UTC)



 Clash Of Discourses: The Discussions On Evolution And Creationism In Turkey Elif Cavuslu.
 * This appears unpublished and so probably not peer reviewed. I find no matches to this author on WorldCat. Fæ (talk) 10:41, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

 Evolving Allah: Can one man Succeed in Stirring up the Muslim World Against Darwin?, Nathan Schneider
 * No abstract and behind paywall. Unable to find this article on JSTOR or WorldCat. Fæ (talk) 11:16, 23 November 2010 (UTC)


 * I find this book cited in Google Scholar 21 times. Fæ (talk) 11:22, 23 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Appears to be a suitable summary though being 16 years old this might be superseded or factually out of date (see #34 below as an alternate). Fæ (talk) 14:29, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

also see review in Asian Studies Review


 * This news item (not an article) is probably covered in easier to access sources. The relevant text is extracted below for those without access:

PROLIFIC. An Istanbul court has sentenced an influential Islamic creationist to 3 years in prison for starting a criminal organization and profiting from it. But the conviction, which Adnan Oktar says he will appeal, seems unlikely to stem the flood of creationist books and DVDs he is publishing. Oktar, who uses the pen name Harun Yahya, became well-known outside Turkey when his Foundation for Scientific Research (BAV) widely distributed its Atlas of Creation, a stunning, 768-page tome (Science, 16 February 2007, p. 925). BAV is not directly linked to the activities that landed Oktar in trouble, and creationism had nothing to do with the charges. Even so, a BAV spokesperson says Oktar is being persecuted “because of his ideas.” Given the political pressures on Turkey’s justice system, that’s “not entirely implausible,” says physicist Taner Edis of Truman State University in Kirksville, Missouri, who has followed the case closely. BAV says “the work will go on” even if its leader goes to prison. —Fæ (talk) 11:50, 23 November 2010 (UTC) 
 * Unable to find this paper on WorldCat. The author might be the author of the book "The glorious Qur'ān : text, translation and commentary". As the website/organization exists to "promote the understanding of al-Qur'an and Hadith in the light of modern knowledge" this website should be considered unsuitable as an independent source. As the website states "Anyone disagrees with any specific article, he/she may write an article with his/her opposing view points giving pertinent reference", it would fail WP:RS or WP:ELNO as it would count as an open forum rather than a publisher. Fæ (talk) 11:25, 23 November 2010 (UTC)



11-20

 * This is a relatively short feature, generally about creationism vs. evolutionism with one relevant statement - "Headed by Adnan Oktar, BAV made headlines internationally in February last year when it mailed copies of a weighty and lavishly illustrated Atlas of Creation to teachers and researchers both in Turkey and worldwide. BAV's activities are integrally connected to the rise of Islamic fundamentalism in Turkey, where secularism and science have become more rooted and strongly established than in many other Islamic countries." Fæ (talk) 22:14, 23 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Brief mention on page 75. Probably too tangential to be a useful reference. Fæ (talk) 22:27, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

 Turkey's EU Accession Reaches an Impasse, William Chislett, Working Paper 34/2009, 3/7/2009, Elcano Royal Institute Madrid http://www.realinstitutoelcano.org
 * + Quality source (probably) but unlikely to be that useful as the only mention of Oktar in this long document is to say "Intelligent design is taught in some Turkish schools, thanks to some extent to Adnan Oktar, a preacher who set up the Bilim Arastirma Vakfi (Scientific Research Foundation), and the schools of Fetullah Gülen. Oktar’s Atlas of Creation has been distributed around the Muslim world and Europe." I would also like to see where exactly this is published in terms of judging authority, it is a working paper and does not appear on WorldCat. Fæ (talk) 11:50, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I suggested this source to provide context. The shift from Evolutionism to Creationism in Turkey was part of a general shift in political ideology accompanying the rejection of Turkey from joining the EU, and its leaning towards becoming a regional power. --Geoffry Thomas (talk) 12:04, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Context is useful, however I would suggest a well respected book on the subject would be more authoritative than a (non-neutral) organization's working paper. Fæ (talk) 12:18, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

<li>
 * Unable to get access, not available via JSTOR. Fæ (talk) 12:03, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

<li>
 * Extensive paper, however the only mention of Oktar is once on page 429 in a footnote rather than in the text and even then he is only mentioned in a list of four writers. Fæ (talk) 12:14, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Again for context, these and several of the following were to highlight Evolution vs Creation in Islamic thought. I thought it was better if the source at least mentioned Oktar. --Geoffry Thomas (talk) 12:36, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

<li> Propagating Islamic Creationism on the Internet <li> (PDF)
 * Duplicate. Fæ (talk) 11:06, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Suggested for context, Islamic Messianism is mentioned in several of the sources already quoted, but not covered in the wikipage. --Geoffry Thomas (talk) 12:37, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
 * + Possibly a reliable source, however the publishing organization has a particular non-academic political mission and their own statement "To contribute to the development of American policy options and public diplomacy efforts within the Muslim world and to strategies to prosecute and to win the war against radical Islam." seems rather partisan and may influence the choice and content of publications. Fæ (talk) 10:30, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

<li> The Anti‐Christ and the End of Time in Christian and Muslim Eschatological Literature <li> Apocalypse in Islam <li> Islam at the Dawn of the New Christian Millennium </ol>

21-30
<ol> Constantinople and the End Time: The Ottoman Conquest as a Portent of the Last Hour <li> New Muslim discourses on pluralism in the postmodern age: Nursi on religious pluralism and tolerance.
 * Suggested for context, Bediuzzaman Said Nursi, and his influence on Oktar, is mentioned in several of the sources already quoted, but not covered in the wikipage. --Geoffry Thomas (talk) 12:38, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

<li> Bediuzzaman Said Nursi's Discourse on Belief in Allah: A Study of Texts from Risale-i Nur Collection <li> God, Life, and the Cosmos: Christian and Islamic Perspectives Edited by Ted Peters, Muzaffar Iqbal and Syed Nomanul Haq <li> Reflections on Gülen Movement: How Islam is Promoting Liberal Democracy in Turkey <li> Turkish Islam's Moderate Face <li> Fethullah Gulen and His Liberal" Turkish Islam" Movement <li> Intercivilizational Conflict: Some Guidelines and Some Fault Lines <li> Post-Islamism and the Religious Discourse of Abd Al-Salam Yasin <li> Religion and politics in Turkey </ol>

31-40
<ol> Towards an Islamic Jurisprudence of the Environment <li> Technology and religious change: Islam and the impact of print <li> Cultural transitions in the Middle East <li> Access Controlled: The Shaping of Power, Rights, and Rule in Cyberspace‎ <li> Summary: Compares "being Muslim" in Turkey with other Islamic countries and describes the regime changes of the Ottoman Empire to the Turkish Republic. Explains evolution in Islamic understanding and discusses creationism's effects and evolution's place in the high school biology curriculum. Defines the Science Research Foundation's (BAV) and Harun Yahya's roles in the Creationist movement. <li>Emergence of the Islamic creationists by Jeffrey A. Stratford. Pdf-version here <li>Harun Yahya's Legal Troubles <li> -- has about half a page on Oktar. <span style="font-family:Antiqua, serif;">HrafnTalkStalk(P) 07:41, 27 December 2010 (UTC) <li> -- 1/3 page. <span style="font-family:Antiqua, serif;">HrafnTalkStalk(P) 07:48, 27 December 2010 (UTC) </ol>

41-
<ol> <li>"The Creationists: From Scientific Creationism to Intelligent Design" by Ronald Numbers <li>"The Illusion of Harmony" by Taner Edis <li>"TAXONOMY ALIVE AND KICKING: OR HOW TAXONOMY CAN HELP DEBUNKING CREATIONIST THINKING" by Thierry Backeljau, Kurt Jordaens & António M. de Frias Martins; published at the Gent University website; 2011 <li>"AN ATTEMPT TO DESCRIBE ISLAMIC CREATIONISM" by Andya Primanda, Gadjah Mada University, 2004 <li>THE MAHDI WEARS ARMANI, An Analysis of the Harun Yahya Enterprise; by Anne Ross Solberg, Södertörn Doctoral Dissertations, Department of Literature, History of Ideas, and Religion, University of Gothenburg, 2013 <li>Police cracks down on obscure sect by Amberin Zaman, turkeyupdate.com, 8 December 1999; via archive.org </ol>

General comments on sources

 * 1) It would be preferable to have had information on where these were published, and who the author is -- the first two elements in checking reliability.
 * 2) The first three sources appear to be prima facie reliable.
 * 3) The fourth I've got insufficient information to assess reliability.
 * 4) The 5th seems to be reliable, but are behind a paywall (can't even find out what journal its from) -- please don't link to pdfs that are behind paywalls -- they're a complete and utter pain -- you end up with html mislabelled as pdf (and thus unreadable without changing file suffixes).
 * 5) 6 & 7 appear to be prima facie reliable.
 * 6) 8 I've got insufficient information to assess reliability.
 * 7) 9 behind a paywall, but reliable.
 * 8) 10 okay reliability (not published, but respectable author & website)
 * 9) 11 behind a paywall, but reliable.
 * 10) 12 reliable
 * 11) 13 no page from link
 * 12) 14&15 reliable
 * 13) 16=2

Will take a break now. <span style="font-family:Antiqua, serif;">HrafnTalkStalk(P) 10:57, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Translation of sources
Please provide translation of non-English language sources as these are disputed.

82.17.78.24 (talk) 23:50, 14 February 2021 (UTC)