Talk:Adolescent sexuality/Archive 5

Evolutionary perspective
Would the info from this paper be relevant to this article?
 * Quinlan, R. (2003). Father-Absence, Parental Care & Female Reproductive Development. Evolution & Human Behavior. 24(6): 376-390. Full text EPM 00:21, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Merge content
As the previous discussion of this was in mid-March, I am re-opening this discussion. At present, this page reveals that we have the following articles -
 * Adolescent sexuality in Britain
 * Adolescent sexuality in the United States
 * Adolescent sexuality in India


 * Firstly, all three are in a bad state, and there are strong concerns about POV on all.
 * Secondly, it is unneccessary to have a Adolescent sexuality in  for every single country on the globe.

I propose that all relevant information from the above three be merged into this article. Sub-sections can be made to deal with notable findings/points/content in each of the three countries (adhering to NPOV), and all three articles be redirected to this one.

Regards, xC | ☎  10:07, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Overview adjustment
editprotected The line "heterosexuality, to homosexuality, to monosexuality, to sexual fetishism, or even asexuality" needs adjusting to "heterosexuality, to homosexuality, to bisexuality, to sexual fetishism, or even asexuality". It seems odd to ignore a major sexual orientation and to cite monosexuality as a sexual orientation when it's acctually a classification under which hetero- and homo- both fall.~ZytheTalk to me! 16:06, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * [[Image:Yes check.svg|20px]] Done. Cheers. --MZMcBride 19:12, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

See Also: Zoophilia?
The current See Also list: "Age disparity in sexual relationships, Child sexuality, Religion and sexuality, Romantic love, Sexual abstinence, Sex education, Sexual revolution, Teen pregnancy, Zoophilia". That last one seems rather out of place in the rest of the list, being one, specific, er, affinity rather than an article relevent to general sexuality. Either it should deleted, or if it is believed to be relevent then surely there are many others of the same category which are no less relevent (there's a long list at Human_sexuality). -- Simxp 00:07, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed, while I guess teens can be zoophiles too, perhaps moreso since they might spend more time alone with pets after school before parents get home, it's not even mentioned in the article and is too focused, not related directly to the issue like the others are. But the page is locked so it can't be removed yet... Tyciol 19:47, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Done. Blaise Joshua 12:25, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

When is an external link such as this inappropriate?
I posted an external link "devoted to providing you with the latest news pertaining to studies and crimes involving pre-adult sexuality in the USA." It was removed hours later by user Hurtstotouchfire. This user's reasons for doing so consisted of his/her claim that the link was not an adequate source. However, I maintain that that opinion is mistaken, since a great majority of the article itself relies on news reports and articles found in peer-reviewed academic journals. Furthermore, I cannot help but suspect that the reason behind the stunning lack of external links in this particular article is due to similarly suspicious removals of posted links.

I would like to consult the authors of this page for group consensus regarding this matter: why should a web page consisting exclusively of the very sorts of news reports and peer-reviewed articles used in the article itself not be accepted as an external link? I am well aware that I am in the right, and will not hesitate to alert higher Wikipedia authorities if I must. Let me add that I am quite aware that user Hurtstotouchfire and at least one or two of those who agree with him will quickly respond to this. However, I am requesting a group consensus, not the consensus of Hurtstotouchfire's inner circle.

Ok, I might check into it. Next time, plz remember to WP:sign your articles with the four tildes!. Nateland 03:12, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Emotional Maturity
I know that 'certain authors' have argued this point. But the following text-

Sexual activity generally is associated with a number of risks, including sexually transmitted diseases (including HIV/AIDS) and pregnancy through failure or non-use of birth control. Particularly for adolescents, who are not emotionally mature,[2] there are added risks of emotional distress or future poverty from teenage pregnancy.

More specifically the quote "who are not emotionally mature,[2]" which is strung up with "there are added risks of emotional distress or future poverty from teenage pregnancy."

Seems POV to me. I've fought over this with the editor in question User:Illuminato many times as it's one of the few remaining quotes from a far earlier (and far more POV) version of this article which me and multiple other authors managed to replace with a prototype of this version.

Now while it is indeed true adolescents 'are not emotionally' mature. It can be argued that no one really is truly 'emotionally mature' and the average user should know your average 15 year old 'isn't emotionally mature'. Making it seem erroneous. But despite this the way it's strung up with the following sentence about future poverty and emotional distress gives it a POV slant that was present in the older revision which was full of these slants in a more extreme way.

I propose we delete this quote and edit the strung piece "there are added risks of emotional distress or future poverty from teenage pregnancy." to. "there are added risks of possible emotional distress or future poverty from teenage pregnancy."

I emphasize 'possible' because the whole debate over 'old enough for sex' is a seemingly recent and US/UK-Centric debate. I think doing this would be a good move that not only me. But a few others editors have given slight to medium complaint about over the months.

Since a 'certain user' has insisted so much in the past that this stays but considering my proposed revisions would be very minor I'll let this run a week and then make the change.

P.S. Illuminato, I suggest that if this passes you don't go and try to desperately revert it like you've done with other vastly-agreed-upon proposals in the past. Because I really don't want to deal with you. Nateland 00:23, 19 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Seems to me rather silly to specifically point out any brand of immaturity among adolescents. Adolescent really just means "not yet adult", doesn't it?  So, of course, it would be wrong to expect any particular area of maturity.
 * OTOH, there aren't all that many generalizations which can be made about both 12-year-olds and 18-year-olds. Hordaland 18:49, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Theories
A suggestion: There should be a section about the most prominent theories of adolescent sexuality. This should be easy to do in an NPOV way, saying "X said adolescent sexual behaviour should be encouraged" rather than "Adolescent sexual behaviour should be encouraged" stated as fact. I would expect as a minimum: Fionah 10:24, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Sigmund Freud, Erik Erikson and other early psychoanalysts
 * Margaret Mead and her detractors such as Derek Freeman
 * Modern conservative commentators such as Leonard Sax
 * Modern liberal commentators such as Judith Levine


 * Sounds fine to me. We have many (too many in my opinion) Dobson quotes. We had a few Levine quotes until a certain 'editor' sneakily removed them saying 'they were pedophilic because blah blah blah'. But I might be able to get them back. There's a whole damn article on Freud. But his opinions seem to be deprecated in the modern world outside of the study of sexual fetishism (somehow the field has advanced very little in over 60 years). Don't know about Erik Erikson, I know about Lief Erikson (the viking who saw the north american shores) nor Freeman, i've heard Margaret Mead mentioned somewhere.

Anyways, I ain't doing this all myself. Let's wait and see if we get any other ppl willing to contribute and help out on this type of extension (in the past these have turned into one sided moralist nightmares that swallow up the whole article) while keeping it NPOV. But overall it'd be good to have an opinions section. Voila! Nateland 17:07, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Archiving
I've boldly added auto archiving of threads stale for two months - the bot will leave at least five threads so the page doesn't empty. -- Banj e b oi   22:07, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

"Prevalence of sexually-experienced 15-year-olds"
Even more relevant in this context is information on how many births per 1,000 population there are in the national groups age 15- to 19. It's the only valid NPOV data to judge the national policies on the subject of sex ed. --Nemissimo (talk) 12:38, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

I was surprised that the survey data on adolescent sexuality did not include any mention of homosesual activity. In some cultures, especially those where girls are "off limits," homosexual activity among boys is common to the point of being conventional. It would probably be related to the data presented, in that in some countries, the rates of sexual experience for boys and girls are relatively equal, while in some others, the rates for girls are low while the rates for boys are high. Homosexual activity among the boys would explain this, but only if homosexual experience was included in the research. In any case, this article would benefit from a lot more information. --Janice Vian, Ph.D. (talk) 16:07, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

"Juveniles Who Commit Sexual Crimes"
When discussing juvenile sexuality, it is pertinent to gain a comprehensive understanding of juvenile sexual offenses. Upon doing an extensive search on juvenile sexual offenders on Wikipedia, it was surprising to note the lack of evidenced based information on this topic. This may be because this topic is not well known or studied within the field of social work. Additionally, it is a topic that evokes ubiquitous responses in American society, often provoking stigma and taboo. However, it is essential for society to understand prevalence, correlates, and evidenced based interventions to further assess and understand these often mis-represented youth. Thus, a short educational excerpt will be added to Wikipedia for the purposes of understanding the —Preceding unsigned comment added by JamieRae22 (talk • contribs) 16:40, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Statistics
I know all these things are affected by the questions asked, the social mores of the peopel asked and the attitudes and interpretations of the auhrors of the reports, but di dno-one spot the following - in the chart of sexually experienced 15 year old by country, how is it possible that 34% of Macedonian males have have sexual experience, while only 2.7% of 15 year old Macedonain females have had similr experiences? There are similar disparities in other contries, though none tabulated have such a dissimilar percentage. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alphonsus (talk • contribs) 23:53, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure since I'm not all that familiar with Macedonian culture but the simple explanation is that the age of men at sexual initiation in these societies is at lower ages than that of women. In layman's terms that basically means young men are more encouraged to gain experience with older women or prostitutes prior to marriage with usually virginal females, but I could be wrong.70.160.99.253 (talk) 18:33, 7 November 2010 (UTC)Rodiggidy

Financially self sufficient?
The quote in the begining of the article saying Adolescents aren't financiall self-sufficient has to go. Being financially self sufficient has no factor in sexuality other than being able to buy more sex toys. A Word Of Advice From A Beast:   Don't Be Silly,   Wrap Your Willy!  22:39, 1 December 2010 (UTC)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Beastly21 (talk • contribs)
 * Some people who have sex consider planning for the cost of raising a baby. Others look at the cost of contraception so as not to have to have to raise a baby just now. Seems relevant to me. Dylan   Flaherty  23:50, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

removal of bias/unreferenced statements
i removed two unrefranced/bias/false/idiotic/unsorced/discriminatory statments, witch were ageist and bias. if it was sorced, and i mistakenly missed it, please revert my removel, and tell me the sorce on my talk page. Jake1993811 (talk) 08:45, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
 * This, which I reverted, is not unsourced. It is clearly attributed to a source at the end of paragraph. Flyer22 (talk) 11:50, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I also just made a tweak to the line. You can't access the whole source unless you follow the instructions to do so...because the source is an abstract (meaning that only part of it is displayed until you access the whole thing). But, basically, just because there is something in an article that you don't like...it does not mean that it is biased. If it is fact, it is just fact. Flyer22 (talk) 11:58, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I made another tweak to balance/neutralize things a bit. I changed "adolescents" to "young adolescents," like the first part of the paragraph, since it is only prepubescent children and young adolescents whose brains are significantly different than legal or older adults cognitively-wise, I added a line about how late adolescents' brains are fairly mature, and I changed "most" to "generally." Flyer22 (talk) 12:43, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

The media section, as usual, needs work. Changed statement that opened it to what the cited ACTUALLY said, not what the wikieditor had wished it said. The next line didn't flow from either of the cited sources on either side of it, so was removed. Also the section is POV as written and needs balance. Lawrence Steinberg's 2010 article on media and sexuality in Developmental Psychology would likely do it, I just need a bit more time to grab it and add it to this section. 69.91.76.238 (talk) 13:18, 27 February 2012 (UTC)MVGuy
 * Also the sections "in Britain" "in India", etc. that come as subheadings under media seem to have nothing to do with media. I'm guessing those need to be put under a different main heading? 69.91.76.238 (talk) 13:46, 27 February 2012 (UTC)MVGuy
 * As a note: An IP added a line to the lead to help balance out the information about the teenage brain, and I tweaked it by making it a part of the previous sentence and formatting its reference. Flyer22 (talk) 03:24, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Conceptions about loss of virginity
This section sites only one source: "Gender and the meaning and experience of virginity loss in the contemporary United States". The use of sources only referring to the united states introduces cultural bias to the section and isn't appropriate for this generic article, when there is already an article on "Adolescent sexuality in the United States".

If I knew how to add the relevant warning banner, I would. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.174.113.182 (talk) 10:17, 6 March 2014 (UTC)


 * I agree. This information should be generic to all adolescents. Having, ultimately, 170 subsections is distracting and not useful to the reader. I did not rm material with no current article. These need work. Student7 (talk) 13:55, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

Hormones
Nowhere does it state the physical differences between boys and girls. Particularly the fact that teen males have 400++ milliliters of testosterone per liter of blood. Average teen females have 20-30 ml/l. "Sex drive" from an objective pov is "higher" among males for that reason. Males are seeking sex. Females less so. A 20:1 ratio in testosterone provides a basis for that drive. And why society "expects" females to be more selective ("show more sense!"). Student7 (talk) 21:10, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Image change
Is the image of the kids in a circle helpful? The caption reads "Group pressure can have strong effects on self-concepts of adolescents," but the kids seem fairly happy in the image... Is it referring to how the kids are divided by gender (boys on the left, girls on the right for the most part), or am I just overthinking this? Margalob (talk) 00:08, 19 September 2016 (UTC)


 * Margalob, you can remove File:ECamp ground.JPG if you want, but I think that the image was included simply to demonstrate kids in a group and how they may be acting the same because of the group mindset. WP:Pertinence gives advice on image inclusion of this sort. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 13:14, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
 * I actually agree with Margalob, the image doesn't really illustrate the concept of pressure (yes they are a group, but it's a pose for a photo and no one appears even implicitly pressured). A poor illustration is worse than none, so I have removed it.

ZarhanFastfire (talk) 07:17, 1 April 2017 (UTC)

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Teenage brain revisited
User:Flyer22 Reborn, I am a bit concerned about statements made early on in the article about the brain not being fully matured till age 25, which sounded rather dubious to me; I came to the talk page and found you had discussed something which sounded similar four years ago. I seem to remember you are a medical editor, so I am merely calling this to your attention, sure that you can check better than I if what's there now is well sourced or could do with editing. (It's funny how virtually all the things on the talk page in its current form are also things that leapt out at me in the article itself, like the American bias in the early parts written as though they were generic even though "in the United States" is used once. It also shows signs of inattentive editing: I noticed one bit that didn't make sense grammatically or semantically and made a patch but it might do for you to go back and see what it was before if possible).ZarhanFastfire (talk) 07:30, 1 April 2017 (UTC)


 * ZarhanFastfire, I wasn't pinged by you above, but I saw you at the article/talk page. I don't need to be pinged here since this article is on my watchlist, though. The "human brain is not fully developed until age 25" aspect is supported by decent tertiary and secondary sources, which can be easily located, but there hasn't been much research into that claim. As for the state of the article, I watch this article and tweak it, but I don't heavily edit it. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 07:59, 1 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Basically, some research has indicated that it takes at least until about age 25 or a little longer for the human brain to reach full maturity. The research, for example, indicates a developmental difference in teenage brains (including late teenagers, like 19-year-olds) vs. the brains of those who are in or past their mid-20s. Before this research, researchers generally thought that the human brain was fully mature years earlier. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 08:17, 1 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Thanks for that. I'd heard this sort of thing stated a lot back in the 1990s and wondered if it were dated; perhaps I didn't want to believe it, then. Makes you wonder about notions of age of majority in past times being right after all, and the push to make voters and car drivers and so on younger is such a good idea. I suppose a cynic might say this also ensures the human race will never go extinct, hower 'clever' we become since our brains take too long to catch up with our nether regions.  By the way, I was not implying you WP:OWN the article! :)ZarhanFastfire (talk) 09:07, 1 April 2017 (UTC)


 * When I think about my maturity level over the years, I do now feel like I had a piece of my brain missing in my early 20s.


 * I know that you weren't implying that I WP:OWN the article; I simply wanted to make it clear that I'm mostly not responsible for its current state. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 09:30, 1 April 2017 (UTC)

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