Talk:Adoration of the Shepherds

Carols
For some reason the article currently says that "relatively few" carols mention or describe the adoration of the shepherds. This is inaccurate. Off the top of my head, besides O Come All Ye Faithful already mentioned, I can think of Silent Night; What Child Is This?; Infant Holy, Infant Lowly; I Wonder as I Wander; O Come, Little Children; among others. Softlavender (talk) 08:51, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

Update: I fixed this by adding the carols and copyediting the text. Softlavender (talk) 04:36, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

File:Shepherds Bow - Google Art Project.jpg to appear as POTD soon
Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File:Shepherds Bow - Google Art Project.jpg will be appearing as picture of the day on December 25, 2016. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2016-12-25. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 01:57, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

File:Gerard van Honthorst - Adoration of the Shepherds (1622).jpg scheduled for POTD
Hello! This is to let editors know that the featured picture File:Gerard van Honthorst - Adoration of the Shepherds (1622).jpg, which is used in this article, has been selected as the English Wikipedia's picture of the day (POTD) for December 27, 2020. A preview of the POTD is displayed below and can be edited at Template:POTD/2020-12-27. For the greater benefit of readers, any potential improvements or maintenance that could benefit the quality of this article should be done before its scheduled appearance on the Main Page. If you have any concerns, please place a message at Wikipedia talk:Picture of the day. Thank you! Cwmhiraeth (talk) 13:45, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

What is the blue strange object in the sky too left?
What is the blue strange object in the sky top left? There has been speculation about ufos in many paintings like this and I haven’t come across anyone who can say what this shape in the sky is. 98.11.157.122 (talk) 14:44, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Which picture are you talking about? I think it's safe to say it's not a UFO. Johnbod (talk) 14:49, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Featured picture scheduled for POTD
Hello! This is to let editors know that File:Adoration of the Shepherds, Murillo (Prado Museum).jpg, a featured picture used in this article, has been selected as the English Wikipedia's picture of the day (POTD) for December 25, 2023. A preview of the POTD is displayed below and can be edited at Template:POTD/2023-12-25. For the greater benefit of readers, any potential improvements or maintenance that could benefit the quality of this article should be done before its scheduled appearance on the Main Page. If you have any concerns, please place a message at Wikipedia talk:Picture of the day. Thank you! &mdash; Amakuru (talk) 12:11, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

Upper case or lower case?
We have articles at Annunciation to the shepherds and Adoration of the Shepherds, with the latter capitalising "shepherds". The respective lead sentences are:
 * The annunciation to the shepherds is ... (i.e. all in lower case)
 * The Adoration of the Shepherds is ... (i.e. the nouns in upper case)

I don't really care which case we use, but can we please be consistent across the various articles? From where I stand, the Annunciation to the shepherds article appears to have it right. But as I say, the most important thing is that it's consistent. This is scheduled to run as picture of the day (POTD) on 25 December. If there isn't disagreement, I'll move the second article and adjust the lead before it goes live. Ping to who has written the POTD blurb.  Schwede 66  01:17, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I think both should be capitalized (at both ends), & I agree they should be consistent. Remember also, that both are the standard terms in art history for these subjects, and will normally be encountered as the title of a painting or other artwork, in which full title case should certainly apply (as lower down in the POTD blurb). Refs like: Ross, Leslie, Medieval Art: A topical dictionary, Greenwood Publishing Group, 1996, ISBN 0-313-29329-5, pp. 16–17. use title case.  Btw, the "Annunciation to the shepherds" used to use that rather odd form in the text for years, until an undiscussed move around 2020.  Both should be fully returned to A...S, which I am happy to do.   Johnbod (talk) 03:47, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks, . Can you please action this prior to the article hitting the main page?  Schwede 66  22:42, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
 * It's a slightly tricky one, because the articles are covering both the biblical narrative and also the discussion on artworks relating to these topics. Which I think is correct, because they're obviously closely linked and there isn't enough material on either angle to warrant splitting out into two separate articles. With that in mind, it might be preferable to have it at lowercase, as a descriptive title... but on the other hand it's fairly clear that sources overwhelmingly capitalise both terms, making them likely proper names per MOS:CAPS. With that in mind, I'll concur with Johnbod and I've moved the annunciatoin article to title case. Cheers  &mdash; Amakuru (talk) 23:09, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I can see why you would capitalise it from an art perspective (as in the Medieval Art dictionary) but that's not what this article is primarily about: "The Adoration of the shepherds is an episode in the story of Jesus's nativity..." Shepherds is certainly not a proper noun. StAnselm (talk) 23:31, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
 * They are often capitalised in title of paintings, but not in discussions of the narrative. This was moved to uppercase in a supposedly uncontroversial undiscussed move, but MOS:CAPS clearly indicates it should be lower case. StAnselm (talk) 23:20, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
 * That doesn't really matter though. The ngram is clear that sources overwhelmingly capitalise both terms, which means that we also should. Note that this applies even when sources discuss the event rather than specific paintings, for example here, here and here. I'm usually among the first to argue for a downcasing, but there just isn't a case for saying MOS:CAPS is met here. Despite being a somewhat descriptive term, it's also treated as a proper name, just like American Revolutionary War is. I'd request you to please self-revert on the Annunciation page, to avoid having to take it to an RM. Cheers &mdash; Amakuru (talk) 23:53, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I think an RM is precisely what we need on both pages - and should have had one here back in 2014. StAnselm (talk) 00:04, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 17 December 2023

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) – robertsky (talk) 01:55, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

Adoration of the Shepherds → Adoration of the shepherds – per MOS:CAPS. This article was originally lower case "shepherds", but was moved to upper case without discussion in 2014. While upper case is almost invariably used in the titles of paintings, this article is primarily about the biblical episode, and in biblical studies lower case is generally used for this episode. StAnselm (talk) 00:15, 17 December 2023 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
 * What about Adoration of the Magi? —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 03:46, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
 * "Magi" is a proper noun, so that's easier. StAnselm (talk) 07:21, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Isn't magi just the plural of magus, roughly meaning "magicians" or "sorcerers" (or perhaps "astrologers"), sometimes interpreted as wise men or kings? That doesn't look like a proper name to me. It's also preceded by the definite article. Per MOS:JOBTITLES, we would not capitalize "the president" or "the king" when "the" is present. Considering a plural to be a proper noun also seems quite rare. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 17:17, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose This contradicts the discussion just above. You are confusing this with the Annunciation to the Shepherds which all your quotes are talking about! There is no "biblical episode" of the Adoration - the shepherds just go to the scene of the Nativity, but nothing at all is said about what they did there. Almost all mentions are anyway in the context of depictions in art. Johnbod (talk) 03:52, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Let's just remind ourselves what the Gospel of Luke actually says: "So they went with haste and found Mary and Joseph, and the child lying in the manger." That's it! Johnbod (talk) 04:02, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Sorry, my bad. I have struck through the GBooks links and replaced them with correct ones - again, biblical commentaries using lower case for "adoration of the shepherds". I agree the biblical emphasis should be greater in the Annunciation article (which perhaps might shoot down the consistency argument) but this article is still structured around the biblical episode. StAnselm (talk) 07:20, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose, per Johnbod and, for now, the evidence of the ngrams which support the long-term uppercasing. Randy Kryn (talk) 08:21, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
 * An ngram won't prove anything in this instance because mentions of individual artworks titled Adoration of the Shepherds will outnumber discussions of the episode. Ham II (talk) 08:34, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
 * The ngrams show the common name regardless of it being the art title or the well-known biblical event (although, as Johnbod points out, the words are not used in the Bible, and when they are used in textual contexts they are commonly uppercased). Randy Kryn (talk) 08:40, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose - the common name is clearly capitalised, as evidence by ngrams, and that includes the examples I cited in the discussion above, which pertain to the episode itself rather than any particular artworks. &mdash; Amakuru (talk) 11:08, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose. I personally do not think ngram evidence is particularly applicable, because most of those hits are likely referring to titles of the myriad paintings with this exact title rather than referring ecclesiastically to the event itself. However, it appears historically, and still currently, commonplace to use title case for the agreed-upon significant supposed events in Jesus's life, and therefore Wikipedia should conform, not only in this title but in those mentioned in the thread above and elsewhere which do not conform. Softlavender (talk) 02:20, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Clearly treated as a proper name. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:22, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

The capitalization question again
Above some place, you had linked a couple of places where you said use of the term in sentences was capitalized even when not referring to works of art. I think you got at least a couple of those wrong. Maybe we should look harder for uses that are not about paintings and plays, and see how they are done. I found these lowercase: See if you agree that this may be worth another look. Dicklyon (talk) 11:28, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
 * has "the adoration of the shepherds" in lowercase
 * is about a painting.
 * is a source that generally caps all episodes/plays in English drama
 * 
 * 
 * 
 * The RM was less than two months ago. Please adore lowercase from afar for six months or so, thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 12:35, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Sure, no rush, but we should work toward getting it right, don't you think? Dicklyon (talk) 09:41, 14 February 2024 (UTC)