Talk:Adrian Jorisszen Tienpoint

Governor/CT/fur trade
Some statements in this biography are misinformed and appear to be synthesis:
 * being called a 'governor" 60 years after the fact does not a governor one make
 * Fort Good Hope was established until the 1630s. There was a very brief settlement called Kievets Hook at Old Saybrook on the CT coast in 1620s, it, like Fort Wilhelmus was retracted.
 * if he was commander of Fort Orange as one reference says how was he involved in establishing settlement on the Delaware?


 * NOTE: The comments above, unsigned, were placed by User:Djflem in edits on 30MAY13 (18:13-18:22)--ColonelHenry (talk) 14:42, 30 May 2013 (UTC)


 * In reply to User:Djflem (unsigned comment above):
 * (1) Being called a "governor" by one of the last surviving people who was there when that person was "governor" typically makes one a governor. If your statement is true anyone who claims anything in a memoir or legal document has to be doubted--we're not discussing epistemological uncertainties, we're discussing history.  If someone at that time says "he was the boss" we can only accept it as "he was the boss."  So, despite your protest, yes, being called a governor 60 years after by someone who was there when he was governor does a governor make.
 * (2) I'll look into the Fort Good Hope issue and figure a way to add to it or remove it--after all, it's a new article, there's information that will be recalibrated or more that eventually will be added as more is brought to the article. Wikipedia, and this article, is a work in progress.
 * (3) From how I read the sources, Tienpoint dropped off settlers on the various rivers (Connecticut, Delaware, then Hudson) and the last spot where the bulk of the settlers under Tienpoint's command established Fort Orange. From what I read, on face value, May was the authority in the Delaware.
 * Your definition of synthesis seems to be entirely over-broad. Please refer to WP:SYNNOT. A statement can't be synthesis when it is a stated fact taken at face value from the source(s) cited. Misinformed...if several primary sources and secondary sources state this clearly, and tertiary sources (i.e., lists of governors of New York--soon to be added when I get to their original sources) call Tienpoint "Governor" or "Director", then who am I to argue with sources?  If a source says in clear certain terms "Tienpoint was governor", I am going to write (and it is not "synthesis") to say "Tienpoint was governor." In fact, only one source refers to him as a "captain" (and only in reference to the voyage part of 1623, not the subsequent settlement in 1623-1624 where he is referred to clearly as "commanding" in the role of "governor") as you would like to minimize him.  The sources are rather clear, I wouldn't have written it this way if they were not clear. If you have better sources, bring them to bear. --ColonelHenry (talk) 14:41, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Verification
Don't see any mention of what you describe in footnote 8, on page 398 or in the index of. Can you verify the sources ? Djflem (talk) 07:56, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Deputy Director
Adrian Jorisszen Tienpoint was a ship's captain who later became deputy-director of New Netherland under Director Willem Verhulst. see:

Once provincial status was granted to New Netherland in June of 1623 the Dutch West India Company began organizing the first permanent settlement. De Eendracht (translated The Unity) departed Amsterdam January 25, 1624. The Nieu Nederlandt (New Netherland) departed March 29/30, 1624 with the first wave of settlers, comprising thirty Flemish Walloon families. They were spread out over the entire territory claimed by the company. A few families were left at the mouth of what was called the Fresh River (now Connecticut River) at Kievet's Hook, or Plover's Hook, (now Old Saybrook) while to the south some families were settled at Verhulst Island (now Burlington Island) in the South River (now Delaware River). Others were left on Nut Island (now Governor's Island) in what is now Upper New York Bay, while the majority, including Catharina Trico, were taken up the North River (now Hudson River) to Fort Orange/Beverwijck (now Albany, New York). It was agreed that should Verhulst travel Tienpont would act as his deputy, or vice-director. Settlers from Kievet's Hook, Nut Island, Fort Wilhelmus and some of those from Fort Orange, including Catharina Trico, relocated when it was decided to consolidate settlement at New Amsterdam in 1626.

Catharina Trico's disposition cited in the source was dispatched as unreliable nearly 90 years (see: ) and the easily-found preponderance of evidence contrary to the claim of Tienpoint being "director", or at least to the fact that Cornelius Jacobsen May was the first, it seems fruitless to try to support it or insert his name on the Director of New Netherland page.

Because writers on the beginnings of New Netherland have treated as a capstone of the arch of history two depositions made at the end of the seventeenth century by Catelina Trico (or Tricot), an octagenarian, and have thereby given insecurity to the whole structure of events, it is pertinent to examine the materials upon which they have relied as granite and to show them to be made of sand. In her deposition on February 14, 1685, before Gov. Thomas Dongan, her age is given as 80 years "or thereabouts." She deposed that she came over either in 1623 or 1624 "to the best of her remembrance," in a ship, not named, she errs in giving the skipper's name as that of the Dutch governor. In this deposition she is not sure of her age, nor sure of the year when she arrived in New Netherland, nor correct as to the name of the Director or governor; does not name the ship, and alleges marriages on shipboard that are dubious. In her deposition made before William Morris, justice of the peace, on October 17, 1688, her age is given as "about 83 years." 8 She now deposes "that in ye year 1623 she came into this Country w th a Ship called ye Unity [Eendracht] whereof was Commander Arien Jorise. " So now she fixes upon 1623 as the year and names the ship, and makes Adriaen Jorissen the "Commander," whilst in her 1685 deposition she dubbed him "governor." But there is nowhere evidence connecting a ship Unity (Eendracht) with voyages to New Netherland at this time, or associating Adriaen Jorissen Tienpont as skipper with a vessel of that name. Some years later, in 1630, a ship Eendracht is first found of record as associated with New Nether- land. There were other ships' bottoms under that name. One of this name was in a group of ships commanded by Schouts of Schouten, who in 1623 and 1624 was preying upon Spanish treasure ships in the Gulf of Mexico, and the actual commander of this Eendracht was named Garbrandt.

The remainder of the 1688 deposition of Catelina is unsupported by any evidence of the times to which she refers, except the date 1626, when she says she "came from Albany [meaning Fort Orange] & settled at N: Yorke [meaning New Amsterdam] where she lived afterwards many years. " This date 1626 is supported by ample evidence as the time when Director Minuit put into effect the concentration of all families in New Netherland at New Amsterdam. Virtually all the speculations, perhapses, buts, and maybes, connected with these two depositions to exhibit faith in them, are to be found in volume four of Stokes's Iconography of Manhattan Island. But these mischievous depositions are to be rejected as evidence. Dr. Jameson, in Narratives of New Netherland, says of them, "we are not to place much reliance on recollections stated sixty years later/' and Mrs. Schuyler Van Rensselaer, in her History of the City of New York in the Seventeenth Century, has characterized them as having "no value. "

While the reliability of the above is could also be challenged since the Eendracht did sail the claim of "governor" upon which the entry to the article is made was retracted. Besides, a layperson calling someone "governor" since he may have been acting in that capacity as deputy does make him a Director of New Netherland. and to say so is OR. While some might wish to claim that position in command of a ship, or a factorij, or an agreement that he might act as deputy qualify him as being the "first governor" of New York that is also far-fetched synthesis.

I trust with information provided you can do something with this stub. Djflem (talk) 21:33, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

Bio info
Adriaen Jorissen Thienpoint of Saardam, Holland, who had various posts as ship captain for the Dutch West Indies Company between 1618-1630's. He would have been known by the name Adriaen Jorissen Thienpont (under his family surname), and under his patronym simply as Adriaen Joris. He had been to New Netherland on trading missions by 1618. In 1618 he took command of the ship "Swaert Beer" after its captain and some of the crewmen were killed by Indians, and sailed the ship back to Holland [Jaap Jacobs, De scheepvaart en handel van de Nederlandse Republiek op Nieuw-Nederland 1609-1675 (1991, Leiden, NL).

A. J. F. van Laer, historian and translator of colonial Dutch documents concerning New Netherland took note of Adriaen Jorissen Thienpont, writng "from a record which within recent years has come to light in Holland, we know that on November 3, 1623, Adriaen Jorissen Thienpont, skipper for Pieter Boudaen Courten, one of the directors of he Zeeland Chamber of the company and a private trader to New Netherland, appeared before the Assembly of the Nineteen and declared that they still had in the Hudson river some trading goods, two sloops and some people. He therefore requested permission to make ready a yacht to trade their merchandise and bring home thei people."

Adriaen Jorissen Thienpont came again to New Netherland in 1624, probably in command of a ship called the "Eendracht," one of a small fleet of ships bringing a number of Walloon settlers to the Dutch colonies. He was sent to take command of Ft. Orange (See footnote 17 of Document C "Instructions for Willem Verhulst Director of New Netherland, (January, 1625)" in Van Laer, Documents Relating to New Netherland, 1624-1626 (The Henry E. Huntington Library, Translated and Edited by A.J.F. van Laer, 1924), published online at http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~nycoloni/huntcexp.html)

In 1626, Adriaen Joris Thienpont was captain of the ship "Zeemieuw" or "Meeuwkin" that brought Peter Minuit to Manhattan, arriving on 4 May 1626 and back in Amsterdam in November of that year. (Jaap Jacobs, De scheepvaart en handel...] In 1628, Adriaen Joris skippered the "Wapen van Amsterdam" that arrived back in Amsterdam in October 1628, after a voyage to the colonies. After this,as captain of the "Nieuw Nederlandt," Adriaen Joris Thienpont served on other voyages to the West Indies.

Adriaen Joris Thienpont was the skipper of the "Vogel Grip" voyage of 1638, that brought Peter Minuit back to North America, this time in the service of Sweden, with colonists for the proposed colony of New Sweden. Minuit, employed by the Dutch West Indies Company and after being recalled in 1637, employed by Sweden would have known Adriaen Joris Thienpont well from his earlier voyages during Minuit's administration the New Netherland. Djflem (talk) 19:19, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

Dates
Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2007 October 8 is informative. notably re: the use of two calendars in the 17th century which can lead to confusion about dates. Djflem (talk) 07:33, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Jorisszen or Jorissen or both?
Xx236 (talk) 10:24, 10 May 2022 (UTC)