Talk:Adult animation/Archive 1

How do delete this damn article?

shite, man! 71.137.222.33 06:45, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Wait...
Since when was Spongebob Squarepants an adult cartoon? And Rocko's Modern Life? Oh geez.

Adult animation means stuff made for adults, not cartoons that can be enjoyed by adults. I mean, really, Spongebob? That's just... whacked. Little Leota 04:38, 3 December 2006 (UTC) yea they got tons of chi;drens shoes on here like wtf71.17.159.25 (talk) 12:27, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Where did we go right?
From the beginning, the article is playing on words.It is why it is so wrong. Dilane 02:48, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
 * In the movies industry, adult means porn.(In Wikipedia Adult movies is redirected to porn movies).
 * Adult animation (animation is part of the same industry) could be redirected the same way.
 * Adult also means mature, serious contents, targeting adults. However, in the US, it is not usually understod this way. An adult shop, an adult book, an adult movie, an adult graphic novel, etc.., none of them is bringing to mind Camus's Stranger or Tolstoy's War and Peace.
 * At minimum, the article must make the distinction between the two types(including the list).
 * Finally, a third type of animated movie with no sex but a lot of violence, should not be there. They should be under Adult-rated animation.
 * Good luck.
 * Very good points. I've recently added some more films, and I think the most easy-to-apply criteria is to ask yourself whether the film is aimed at adults more than at kids, either deliberately, in the way that it was made, or accidentally coming out that way despite the filmmakers' supposed intentions.  Separating mature-themed films from sex/pornography/"lots of swear words" films is definitely something to be considered.  The South Park film, for example, is considered "adult", but it's not mature by any stretch of the imagination.  If we do split them up, though, it's going to create some invariable overlap... which would be a problem too. Esn 11:48, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Invader Zim
Perhaps Invader Zim would be suited for this page, it was designed for children, but has somewhat of a cult following among older audiences (older children, teenagers and young adults), whereas it has by and large fallen by the wayside amongst younger children. The setting also seems to suggest an older target audience.

I feel that due to the lack of many actually mature jokes, probably because of Nickelodeon's wishes, judging by Jhonen Vasquez's other works, this is quite a borderline thing, so I'd like to hear what people have to say about this before I go ahead and add it.

LupusCanis 22:31, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Split
I propose to split this page in: A. Adult animation B. List of adult animation programmes

Movies
Somebody really needs to work on the "movies" section. The first time I saw this page, I didn't see classics like Fritz the Cat or Heavy Traffic listed, but someone put out the effort to add in those two animated Batman movies (which are kids' flicks)? I'll try to contribute to the section as much as I can, but I'd like others to help out with the article as well. (Ibaranoff24 04:51, 20 December 2005 (UTC))

No way.
Homestar Runner is not an adult cartoon in any way shape or form! Except for a couple examples of crude humor, that site is extremely kid friendly!


 * If you define "adult" as what appeals to adults and not what is legally restricted to them, then many of the jokes in HSR are adult. For starters, all those 80's pop culture references are unlikely to be understood by anyone under 20. matturn 12:17, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

new toons?
Some shows that can be added: Freak Show, Kid Notorious, Shorties watchn' Shorties, Yam Roll, Trans Force and lots mre you cand find at comedy central and match entertainment.

Do you think Billy and Mandy should be on here? I know it's aimed at children, but it's so discusting, crude, violent, sometimes scary and full of innuendo. Do you think it should be on this page? Also i think Cow and Chicken and Foster's Home for Imaginary Friends should be on here to because a lot of the jokes used in those shows are adult in nature. If Fosters Home for Imaginary friends goes on so should SpongeBob Square Pants or Yakkity the Yak or Camp Lazlo and that other show about the wiesel and the baboon with the red but or that horror/comedy show about the dog and his mum and dad (who are very old.)

Adult Themes
Whether a cartoon is popular or not with adults doesn't matter, what makes a cartoon "adult animation" are the themes.

HELP! GOOD PEOPLE ON WIKI NEEDED
I first don't know how to porpaly hyperlink Beavis and But-Head do America. I've got a few more adult animations but i can't find the list but i do know that they're all on the comedy central site also. Also King of the hill gone a bit weird.


 * Fixed King of the Hill --ReviewDude 19:07, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Adult Animation Games
we could put these in: 1.South Park (video Game) 2.South Park Rally 3.South Park: Chef's Luv Shak 4.The Simpsons: Bart vs. the Space Mutants 5. The Simpsons Road Rage 6.The Simpsons Hit and Run 7.The Simpson: Night of The Living-Tree House Horror 8. The Simpsons Skate Boarding 9. The Simpsons Tree House of Horror (GBA) 10. Futurama (Video Game) 11. Beavis and Butt-Head (video game on Sega Genisis and Game Gear) 12 Family Guy (Video Game) 13. and maybe Ray Part I and II (internet game)

Adult Animation could be split into 2 articles: Adult Animation (Rated PG to R) and Pornographic Animation (Rated X). Also, inclusion of Adult (X-rated) anime would double this list's size. Pornographic Anime list should be seperate. This list should not include Akira, which is not X-rated. 67.150.171.70

Is There Even A Reason For This Page?
Well to begin with animation as an art was aimed originally at adults. The original Loony Toons were war propaganda, Betty Boop was not aimed at children, Red Hot Riding Hood most certainly was not aimed at children. It wasn't until the 40's and into the 50's when Disney came up with the idea of bawlderdizing Grim's Fairy tales and pushed the idea that Animation should be for children that this notion started.

Furthermore this list is missing A LOT of titles if the purpose is to identify non-child friendly animations. To begin with all of the MTV produced animations should be on this list and the Brothers Grunt is missing, Spike TV's/Funimation  Afro Samarai is also missing, All of the Adult Swim catalog should be on the list, Cowboy BeBop and YYH was not commissioned by Adult Swim (In fact it airs on the Funimation Chanel now), in fact almost all the anime on the list is wrong, and is incomplete. I mean if you really want an anime list that is not appropriate for children start with the Right Stuff.com adult catalog and then go through the Right Stuff catalog and list every show that is 12+, 13+, 14+,15+, 16+, AND 17+ (C'mon Ranma 1/2, Maze, Mermaid Scar, Mermaid Forrest,  Green Green, Magical Twilight, Dragon Pink,  and Buttobi CPU AKA I dream of Mimi are missing). Then do the same for the ADV catalog. Most anime distributors in the US in fact do mostly assign an age rating on their products and do print this rating right on the packaging.

Also many Movie titles are missing like the 1972 Cleopatra Queen of Sex and 1973 La Planète sauvage (Fantastic Planet), to name just a few- the list is seriously lacking.

Not to mention some of these titles are less objectionable than others- The Simpsons is no where even close to as objectionable as Drawn Together.

In short this list looks like a list put together by someone who really is clueless about what they are talking about. I also don't see the point to it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jsoo1 (talk • contribs).

I also propose we delete this whole article. There is no absolute line between "adult" cartoons and "children's" cartoons. Take Ren and Stimpy, Dexter's Laboratory, The Powerpuff Girls, Animaniacs or Spongebob Squarepants for example. These are all shows that attracted large adult fanbases almost instantly (unlike, say, the original Turtles show, wich had to wait a decade untill the people who watched it as children grew up, before it got an any adult fans). And it is clear that these toons, as well as many, many, many other comedy cartoons from the early 90's and beyond, were/are also INTENDED to be entertaining to adults as well as children, seeing it how many of the jokes children wont understand (everything from political or sexuall jokes to cultural references). This is also the case in, not just many, but MOST cartoons from before the 1950's. So animation was originally, and is again today, intended for people of all ages (even though they may be MARKETED mosty to kids. But, com on, so is even Batman). It was only during that 1960's to 1980's era that (american) cartoons were almost exclusivley for children. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 90.224.189.88 (talk • contribs).
 * An alternative (and, I think, prefferable) option to deletion would be providing a stricter definition of what constitutes "adult". For example, a list of pornographic + hentai animation could be given its own section as was suggested above.  The problem here is that there is a fair amount of overlap between regular films which have some nudity in them and specifically pornographic films (also, some films were marketed as pornographic films in the US when in reality that was far from the truth - ie. Kureopatora, which was called "Cleopatra Queen of Sex" in its US release).  As it is now, this is an incomplete list, but one which I think has some use if it is taken with a grain of salt.  I haven't looked at the "tv series" section so I don't know about that (I don't watch too many tv series) but the films section is at least narrowed by including only feature films (hmm... for the most part.  There seem to be one or two exceptions). Esn 21:24, 23 March 2007 (UTC)


 * You've missed the entire POINT. This article is very POV right now because it dismisses the fact that the notion that animation was for children only existed only in the minds of some US  TV  broadcast network executive mind's from the late 40's-80's.  The entire aproach is POV from the start.


 * It specifically dismisses that the early Betty Boop was very racy, and aimed at adults, for the times, and had to be toned down due to the Hayes Code. Swing Shift Cinderella, Red Hot Riding Hood, Uncle Tom's Cabana, Coal Black and de Sebben Dwarfs, and Little Rural Riding Hood all are examples of US Made pre-1950 animations that were both aimed at adult audiences and would be considered unappropriated for children when they were made (Heck even now Red Hot Ridding Hood is not shown without the censored ending which implied bestiality).


 * It also ignores that the early Flintstones were aimed at Adults. The series was originally sponsored by Winston Cigarettes and was the first US Animated show that depicted a married couple sleeping in the same bed, Gasp!!, and dealt with infertility, albeit indirectly.   Not to mention the cigarette promos featuring Fred and Barney relaxing after a long hard days work by sitting back and lighting up a Winston cigarette.


 * The lists are also incomplete. Urusei Yatsura, which did air on  US PBS Stations in the US, in the first episode has the male protagonist win his competition with the female protagonist by removing her top with a toy gun with a suction cup plunger attachment and while she moves to cover herself, a brief topless flash is in the episode, he wins.  This show however is missing from the list.  Ranma 1/2 also has aired on PBS Stations in the US and has several topless scenes and the main character is "cursed" the effects of the curse being whenever he becomes doused with cold water he becomes a young woman- yet the series is missing from the list.  The list also lists many shows that were produced in Japan and shown on Adult Swim as being commissioned by Cartoon Network, implying they have control over the series.  That is a double falsehood as Cartoon Network neither commissioned the shows nor has control over them (Well they do edit out bits).  Neither of those two series were aimed at young children, rather they were aimed at Japanese young adults and adults.


 * The lists themselves also bother me, it seems the entire point of them and the article is to subjectively say certain animations are not appropriate for children.  This is very POV. Many parents would have few qualms with allowing Their Children watch the Simpsons.  I have also seen many people  claim they would not only allow  their children to watch Ranma 1/2 but would prefer they watch that over pretty much anything on US prime time broadcast TV.  The suggestion to change the definition of what is adult animation for this purpose does nothing for this.  If we are going to keep this article it should be a well researched article on how the notion that animation should be for children only came about.

I just did a ton of research on this
The first thing I've Found is that journalist are very very lazzzzzzy!! The second thing I realized is that almost every online history of animation has excluded most of the US, in particular the pre-WWII US, and Europe pornographic releases while including every single last Japanese release.

Some of the research I've found, AS A NOTE SOME OF THE CITATIONS i DUG UP ARE NOT CHILD/WORK FRIENDLY I'VE NOTED WHICH- as would be expected considering the topic;

1. There were multiple 16 mm pornographic films made and distributed  in the US in the 20's and 30's. Titles include The Virgin with the Hot Pants (1924)  ,Buried Treasure (1925) Aka Pecker Island , and Eveready Harton in Buried Treasure (1929). Eveready Harton in Buried Treasure has been included in just about every Porn Anthology since the History of The Blue Movie.

2. In 1986 there was a series called Dirty Little Cartoons  (WARNING: Citation not child nor work friendly) Released in the US. An anthology of all the Pornographic Cartoons from Europe going back to the turn of the century (1900). There are Multiple anthologies available, but I couldn't find out which titles are included    (WArning:None of these citations are child or work friendly)

3. The first War Propaganda Animation was created in the 1918 film THE SINKING OF THE LUSITANIA; AN AMAZING MOVING PEN PICTURE. There was a lot of War Propaganda animations. The Japanese also used Animation for War Propaganda most notably the 1934 short Private 2nd-Class Norakuro and Momotaro's Gods-Blessed Sea Warrior in 1945 (Warning: Citation not child/work friendly)

4. The word PHAT was first used in 1916

5. Almost all of the early US Animations (Pre-1921) were aimed at adults and centered around entertaining adults

6. The US used Animation to train recruits in WWI. Most notably the Max Fleischer's "How to Fire A Machine Gun" created at Fort Still. In 1942 the U.S. government formed 18th Air Force Base Unit, also known as the First Motion Picture Unit (FMPU) in Culver City, California. This unit turned out over 116 animated films Many of which were narrated by Ronald Reagan. The Private SNAFU (This is an acronym for Situation Normal Alls F...d Up) series, consisting of 28 animated shorts developed in 1942 from an idea of Colonel Frank Capra, designed to teach soldiers through Bad Example. Private SNAFU included many nude images including the episodes (Warning: Citation not child/work friendly) in particular where he dreams up his girlfriend reading his letter home in nothing but her garter and panties  (Warning: Citation not child/work friendly). Booby Traps is also hilarious. These shows were shown to US enlisted men despite the fact that many civilian animations, like Betty Boop, were forced to tame down due to the Hayes Code.

7. The first adult Japaneses animation was Sennin Buraku (Hermits' Village) which ran for 2 months on late night TV  in 1963 it was not overly explicit but did contain adult themes. The first Japanese Animation that depicted nudity was Osamu Tezuka's feature film 1,001 Nights, released in June 1969, followed quickly by Maruhi Gekiga: Ukiyo-e 1001 Nights in October of that year (Warning: Citation not child/work friendly). These two were followed by the 1970 movie Cleopatra, which was described as"kid stuff with naked breasts." (not really porn). The first truly pornographic Japaneses animation was Yuki no Kurenai Kesho - Shojo Bara Kei ("The Reddening Snow, Girl Tortured with Roses") released in 1984  followed by Cream Lemon in that same year.

8. In 1972, although animated pornography was not new, airing it in public theaters was. An animated version of Little Annie Fanny was shown in theaters in New York in 1972, until Playboy sued them for copyright infringement,  as was Cleopatra Queen of Sex to "to steal some of Fritz's thunder." .

9. The first company to try to faithfully import a Japanese pornography film was Central Park Media with their first release Minna Agechau ("I Give My All") at the 1991 AnimeCon convention in San Jose. The LA Times and Fox News ran exposes about American Children's Morals being assaulted by this new animated porn imported from japan called Anime. This theme was parroted in 1998 by the NY Times  (Warning: Citation not child/work friendly), and even to this day  , by journalist. These "journalist" ignore that the US animators pioneered animated pornography in the 1920's and resurgence of animated pornography surfaced from 1969 through the 80's with titles like Snow White and the 7 Dwarfs (1979), Little Annie Fanny (1972) , Graphyty (1969)  ,  and other such titles.

10. The Parents Television Council (The PTC), a collation of religious and parent groups, is activly targeting the ADV Anime Network, Adult Swim, and Cartoon Network animated features and trying to get them off the air. The PTC has been targeting the Simpsons although the cite MTV's animated offerings as the barn door opener. This is despite the fact that the Simpsons, which they also target, were introduced in 1987 as short sketches in the Tracey Uleman Show. In fact the lists on the article's page looks like it was generated by PTC members.

Two lists
I think that we should introduce two lists into the page. One of which is animation directly inteneded for adults only, another list which defines shows which are marketed to all ages, but feature themes which only adults will directly understand. I think this will then help make the article more clear to those researching this subject, as well as making it more clear which programmes to include.IdeologicalArrest (talk) 21:16, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

- Another option, as mentioned before I believe, is to discern between 'adult' meaning 'containing material inappropiate and unsuitable for children,' e.g. cursing, violence, pornography etc., and 'adult' as meaning 'containing mature, well developed themes, sensibilities and/or humor that adults can appreciate' e.g. well-rounded character development, drama or dramatic themes, regret, philosophy, certain kinds of satire or comedic timing, references to pop culture from the 80's etc. This second 'adult' does not mean children won't also like it, just that these particular aspects are only available to adults, as children will either not notice them or not appreciate them. Therefore while it's possible for someone who is an adult to enjoy literally anything, animation would only fall under this second 'adult' if it contained at least certain things that adults, and not children, can appreciate. Also, of course, it's possible for a work to fall under both types of 'adult.' Perhaps using different terms such as 'adult' and 'mature' would help clarify things? This problem of distinction is not unique to animation, however, as many films declared to be 'adult' or 'mature' are only 'adult' by the first definition, and actually quite infantile and immature in their handling of the plot, characters, etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.56.40.204 (talk) 09:13, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Rename or Merge with Another Article
Well obviously, as it’s been stated several times, this article needs to be renamed. Adult films, adult shops, adult comics, adult entertainment, adult anything... all carry a pornographic connotation. Perhaps we should merge this (not in its entirety, of course) with the Modern animation of the United States article. Or we could rename this “Animation for Adults” as it’s called in the Modern Animation article. That, however, can and will still be misconstrued for pornographic animation and film. I think the best idea would be to go for the prior and merge this article for the reason above, as well as because I find the list of “adult” animated programmes superfluous. Support or oppose? This desperately needs to be put right.--BaKa-NEKO (talk) 01:45, 3 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Adult animation vs. children's animation are common terms in film-making that have nothing to do with pornography. And encyclopedia is a place for educating it's readers instead of relying on personal cultural biases. And there is no reason to merge the article since it is a chapter on its own in History of animation like in History of film. --Termer (talk) 17:00, 9 September 2008 (UTC)


 * PS.since sexual themes are part of Adult themes, there is nothing wrong with the articles title in that sense either.--Termer (talk) 17:08, 9 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree with Termer. Mostly because, whether "Adult animation" refers to pornographic animation or animation for adults, it certainly doesn't exist only in the U.S. However, I agree that list probably shouldn't be there. I think this article would improve a lot if we used the sources mentioned two sections above. As for the pornographic/for adults problem, I see two solutions: either make the article about both (would probably be unnecessarily confusing) or make this a disambiguation for two articles: Pornographic animation and Animation for adults. On the Animation for adults article we could have a hatnote directing people to the Pornographic animation article, if that's what they're looking for. --Cattus talk 18:47, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Or we could do something similar but more simple: keep this article and have it be about animation for adults, have a Pornographic animation article and the hatnote here directing people to it. And, per what Termer said, seeing as this article would be about all animation for adults, it could/should have a section for pornographic animation.--Cattus talk 19:02, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
 * There are 6 books available that mention the term "Pornographic animation" so feel free to start up an article if you think the subject is notable on it's own. I'd make it first just a chapter of this one but wouldn't pay too much attention to the question . For a simple reason: what exactly is considered "pornography" can vary depending on cultural backgrounds and is more a subject of personal opinions rather than a fact.--Termer (talk) 17:06, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
 * PS, therefore labeling any films or animation as "pornography" should better come from any respected film and/or animation scholars/historians. In case a film is not mentioned in any studies or books written on Animation, it means it's not notable enough and we shouldn't concern ourselves with such films for WP purposes. --Termer (talk) 17:15, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I think for now a section on this article is enough.--Cattus talk 15:24, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Anime....
Seeing as the list of adult anime is never-ending & can be added until no tomorrow., should it be removed or given it's own section?

Removed, it sticks out and a lot of obvious anime are missing.J&#39;onn J&#39;onzz (talk) 16:17, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

List
This is way too subjective, I don't think you can list every adult cartoon ever.

Also why are spongebob and fairly odd parents mentioned, they aren't adult at all.J&#39;onn J&#39;onzz (talk) 16:17, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Commissioning Networks
Is there a reason that many of the Japanese anime eventually shown in the US on Adult Swim have AS listed as their commissioning network, rather than their original Japanese stations? I think somewhere along the line, an editor misunderstood. 98.164.199.81 (talk) 10:54, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

What the --?
Total Drama Island, Total Drama Action, and 6teen is NOT adult animation. Some adults may watch it, but its rating in Canada is G, although it's TV-PG in US-- it's not an ADULT ANIMATION. They're not like Family Guy or The Simpsons or Robot Chicken. It's just directed for older children. I'll fix it. Kjinho213 (talk) 02:14, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Alternative animation
Has anyone else heard of the term "alternative animation"? I have seen Ralph Bakshi's films being described as such. That might be worth writing an article about if there are enough sources. I think it can be established that many of the titles listed here could be considered alternative, although this article mostly focuses on mainstream adult animation. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 08:41, 24 February 2009 (UTC))

Television Shows
Note "commissioning network" mean the network that supplied the bulk of the capital to produce the series, and therefore has a lot of power over it. This is almost always the first network to screen a series.

Cartoons aimed at kids and families mistaken as adult in America
Shouldn't we mention that American cartoon fanboys tend consider foreign children's cartoon "mature" that are looked at as acceptable in those countries? I remember a lot of anger of Viewtiful Joe's tv show from the fanboys because 4kids dubbed it. Plus Sailor Moon fanobys tend to react this way too. I also think it should be noted that Japan has a much more accepting view of sexuality than america but considerable opposition to guns(it is illegal to own a gun in Japan) YVNP (talk) 04:16, 26 March 2009 (UTC)