Talk:Advance-fee scam/Archive 1

Early notes
This article has several repetitive sections, especially an unnecessarily repeated statement that the scams are not exclusive to Nigeria. The repetitiveness needs to be cleaned up. __________________________________________________ Added some notes about how the spams are actually sent, and included a reference to the Spanish Letter scam, of which the 419 is merely a (highly visible) variant. Also moved the FTC warning from the "How The Scam Operates" section, where it really didn't fit in, to the introduction (although I dont think it really fits there either.Twisto 21:45, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

"Spyware" is software used to collect personal information on a victims PC - "Spamware" is software used to send unsolicited bulk email. They don't want to spy on their own machines, they want to send spam from them.Twisto 11:07, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

Is the bad check scam really an example of the Nigerian money transfer fraud? Populus 17:20, 27 Aug 2003 (UTC)


 * I agree, it doesn't seem to have anything to do with the 419 fraud cases, except perhaps that most of the scammers are living in Nigeria. But the defining characteristic of 419 scams is that the victim is asked to help smuggle money out of a country, not the fact that the perpetrator lives in Nigeria.  It's not even an "advanced fee fraud", because you aren't paying any money before you (theoretically) get more money back. -- Khym Chanur 04:58, Oct 31, 2003 (UTC)


 * The bad check scam is definately an example of the Nigerian money transfer fraud, since it usually only works via wireing money to a country like Nigeria where the police either don't have the resources or dont care to figure out who actually recieved the money in that bank. It would be much harder to pull that type of thing here (meaning have the recieving bank being a US bank), as it would involve semi sophisticated identity theft as well.


 * The cheque/bankers draft scam is definitely carried out by the same groups as the 419s and lotto scams. I'll add some notes on the main MOs to the article, as this is an area I can claim some knowledge (from the investigative side, rather than the victim/perpetrator side, thankfully). I don't know whether (from a purely academic POV) the later scams belong in this article though - a pointer to a separate article might be appropriate, but as much of the content would be identical, it might be a little redundant. Twisto

Name change
I've modified the name of this article; "advance fee fraud" is the canonical name of this type of fraud. -- ChrisO 22:48, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Tech-savvy?
Not to be anally politically correct, but isn't this a bit of a sweeping generalisation:

"The often very professional layout of web pages and so on used in the scams suggests that they do not lack technical sophistication at least at the upper levels of the gangs. Alternatively, the gangs may hire experts from tech-savvy (i.e. non-African) parts of the world."

Some of the best technical expertise in the world can be found in South Africa, as one mere example, to say nothing of Egypt, Kenya, Nigeria itself.......It just seems a little unfair! -- TheManWithNoName 17:42, 30 Nov 2005 (GMT)

Weird advice
What's this section for? Is it an example of a spam email, or is it true and in the article as advice? I find the first point a little hard to believe.

* It is a Federal Crime for an United States citizen to participate in an non U.S. Lottery. * You cannot win a Lottery that you have not entered, especially through email! * A Legitimate Lottery would never force you to pay Advanced-Fees prior to receiving your winnings. -- Tarquin 11:12, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Although weird, I think it is appropriate. There is other sections in this article containing advice: "It is not recommended that you attempt to get your money back" etc. This perhaps is a departure from the NPOV rule, but unless there is some way of providing an OBVIOUS link to an external source for authoritative advice, I think an exception should be made in this case.

Spoiler alert
While I find the "Spoiler alert" funny, I think it has no place in this article; this isn't about a movie or a book. Any objections to me removing it? -- Yoghurt 14:31, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * perhaps as not to spoil the upcoming scam the readers are about to have perpetrated on them?    216.234.58.18 22:56, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Recent merge
419 guestbook spam was recently merged with this article. Now it's under the section "419 guestbook spamming." -- Stevey7788 22:59, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * (This comment restored by me after being accidentally erased) DanielCristofani 21:16, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

Humor
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Al_Bahah_Province&oldid=14579969 - these people can find you anywhere... but *shhh* like she says, keep it confidential gren 12:02, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Factual contradiction ... or inconsistency at least
Factual contradiction ... or inconsistency at least

From the article Advance fee fraud :


 * This type of scam, originally known as the "Spanish Prisoner Letter", has been carried out since at least the 16th century via ordinary postal mail.

From the article Spanish Prisoner :
 * The Spanish Prisoner is a confidence game dating back to at least the 17th century.

Ok so given the word "at least" the two statements are not actually contradictory. However, we may want to do a little more digging and decide which date should go in both articles.

I have posted this comment on both talk pages. Dalf | Talk 20:58, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * I have added more information on the Spanish Prisoner page. This page is correct as it is 1588 i.e. 16th Century.--NHSavage 08:53, 4 September 2005 (UTC)


 * There is a reference to a Spanish Civil War prisoner scam in The Times (I was looking up something else on the microfilm so don't have more details). Jackiespeel 16:23, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Now it says that they originated in the early 80's in Nigeria, but I got a letter like this from Nigeria in the mid 70's... Lindorm (talk) 12:26, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
 * "More widely known/noticed since the 80s" could be suitable. Doubtless that these things have been going on since ages ago. 118.90.58.242 (talk) 07:14, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

How much has been netted by scammers?
The article needs a dollar amount reference, imho. Apparently the article ref to billions lost has been deleted, and there is no mention I can see of an amount estimate. I recall reading a year or so ago at one point the scam income was in the top 3 re Nigerian GDP income figures.

Top 3 of GDP? This is not likely, and in any case, is impossible to verify. 91.106.223.96 (talk) 14:18, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Translations?
I recently had some 419 scammers impersonate addresses from my company, which does non-profit work in developing countries. I found out about it when we started getting responses back to the nonexistant addresses at our domain.

I sent back quick notes to everyone that got tricked into believing the 419 emails either were or might be legit (amazing to me how many folks were looking to proceed. wonder how many did..). I referred them to the Wikipedia articles in English, French and German for background.

I found myself wishing for one in Burmese/Myanmar. There's barely a Burmese Wikipedia, so I didn't even bother trying to post a request for one there, but it got me thinking.

It seems that as Wikipedia comes online in places that are "coming online" so to speak in the more general sense, there might be opportunity for the Wikipedia community to facilitate that transition.

Somehow prioritizing translation of (and perhaps promotion somehow though that could flirt perhaps closer to social activism than might be desirable by the community depending on how done, perhaps) of articles like this 419 article might be a good thing in that direction. There might already be suggested lists of articles to prioritize at the start of a wiki, but stuff like that. Maybe be able to tap the Wikipedians pocketbooks for little projects like hiring translators to translate some things to other Wikipedias? I know translators are always looking to pick up a few freelance bucks. Wonder if there's roome to seed development in that direction somehow.

Anyhoo, just musing here a bit.

-Pfwebadmin 21:55, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Victims, not only in rich countries
Internet advance fee fraudsters don't target exclusively "investors from richer countries". Victims from not so rich countries are constantly reported and some scammers specifically target people from Latin America, India, Central and South East Asia or Middle East, where general public is less aware of their tricks. Some email spiders have features that allow harvesting email addresses linked to specific locations (e.g. from url's containing ".com.in" and so on).

--Filius Rosadis 22:34, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Needs citations and specific numbers
This article unfortunately needs to be run through the style guideline Avoid weasel terms. "Some" travelers are held for ransom, "some" people meet fake government officials ... much of the supposed data on this scam needs to be verified. There's no need for us to exaggerate in order to caution the public. Tempshill 23:29, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
 * I agree. I have followed some of the citations via the Web and have found only one source that actually gave a name and home town for one of these victims — an Englishman, he committed suicide through immolation after discovering that he had been the victim of a fraud. If anybody can discover any other victim, let's put in in the article. Sincerely, GeorgeLouis 00:01, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Why is it 419?
This page needs some sort of an explanation as to why the number 419 is used to refer to these scams. --Cyde Weys votetalk 17:55, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

It's called 419 because that is the number that is used in Nigeria's criminal code to describe this sort of crime and explains the penalty for it. The code states that they can only be charged if there is evidence against the individual, or if they're caught comitting it. In Nigeria, the penalty is 3-7 years for this sort of crime. I believe the article has a link to Nigeria's criminal code in it. PRueda29 / Ptalk29 / Pcontribs29 19:36, 15 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I added a sentence based from what you said. &mdash;Quarl (talk) 2006-01-16 07:37Z 

In Nigerian pidgin English (a commonly spoken, English-like language in Nigeria) "419" is also used as "cheating" in normal sentences. You can use it in sentences like "You no go 419 me-o" (don't cheat on me). "Dat man na bigbig 419" (that man can not be trusted).

419 is pronounced as "four-one-nine".

Proposed split
We need to split the check fraud and lottery fraud out of this article, as they aren't relevant. Stifle 01:18, 12 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Both of those frauds are "advance fee" fraud - you are conned into paying an "advance fee" of some sort, expecting to get goods or money in return.
 * 82.46.76.125 11:04, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Both are also spread by the same scam organizations that do all the other advance fee frauds. Splitting it up will also give the ilusion that there are diffrent perpetrators behind an advance fee fraud and the lottery and check fraud which is not the case.

If this article was cleaned up and pruned there would be no need for a split. Removal of unsourced nonsense, the lenghty "example", and other things that have nothing to do with the subject of this article would go a long way. savidan(talk) (e@) 00:15, 26 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Agreed. The article hangs together pretty well as it is, and lumping all these scammers together, since they really are the same people using the same methods, makes sense to me.  I don't think it's too long and could easily be cleaned up a bit (as I've begun) without rambling. Steve Rapaport 08:16, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Example scam letter
Should be moved to wikisource. savidan(talk) (e@) 00:10, 26 March 2006 (UTC)


 * We now have far too many example scam letters, and I guess Wikisource would be a better place for most of them. Plus, some of the letters have had spellings corrected by bots. which is not appropriate. Pontificake 23:34, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Very inaccurate article
1. Many statements in the article are here-say, cannot be verified and are in fact false. The second paragraph is false since there are many countries missing from that list especially the USA. Also, the allusion that it only occurs in areas "with large West African populations" is spurious. It is racially biased and unfair. I personally have been scamed by people who were not from West Africa.

2. The Link in the subtopic: "Invitation to visit the country" is slightly out of context, since the person was not smuggled into South Africa.

3. The "credit Card" subtopic should be revised since this is just plain old credit card fraud rearing it's ugly head.

4. The "Romance angle" subtopic is more relevant to the verifiable "russian bride" scam that is all over the internet and this should be clarified.

5. "Auction overpayment": Should this even be here at all? Simple bank fraud.

6. "Classified advert scams": How is this different from the bank fraud of Auction overpayment?

7. "Monetary Loss estimate": The link (i.e. #5) attached to the highly speculatory second paragraph does not justify the sentence. May I add from my experience that it is not as successful as the public thinks it is. it just looks that way because of the low cost of scamming and the dedication the scammers put in- a behaviour similar to the "gambler's addiction" -As described by gambler who rarely wins, but when he wins causes a lot of commotion and arouses a new dedicated army of believers that their jackpot is next.

8. The "physical harm or death" lends credence to fraudulent activity evident in the USA, and as stated, citations ae needed.

9. The "Terms" subtopic: Please can the relevance of this be explained?


 * I hear from a lot of folks who argue that advance fee fraud should be described without any reference to Nigeria or Africa, because specifying those locations is "racist".


 * But the fact is that the 419 letters really are the product of a fraud subculture based in Lagos, Nigeria.


 * Yes, of course there are all kinds of fraudsters and scammers in every country in the world. But it is the Lagosians (and some expatriates) who are flooding our inboxes with their dishonest and attention-demanding letters.  I get thousands of scam letters per year directed to my personal inbox alone, directly from the scammers.


 * You'd think that the Miriam Abacha or Nigerian National Petroleum stories would have played out by now, but even today, roughly half the scam letters SAY they are from Nigeria. The format and the names and the stories and the methodology are so numbingly repetitive, and the world has been so saturated with them, that it's hard to imagine a separate set of scammers in, say, Indonesia or Wales deciding that it's worthwhile to imitate these peculiar messages down to the details.


 * The defenders of Nigeria's honor say that I'm ignoring all the other kinds of fraud in the world. But I'm not interested in fraud as such. I'm interested in spam.   In this case, one specific group of fraudsters, from one specific city, is generating a stunning quantity of spam. Kestenbaum 01:54, 23 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I think the problem here is that the article describes advance fee fraud as if it encompases 419 (which it does), but then goes ahead to say that it is done by west africans only in certain places. To answer you directly, (First paragraph:) Some Nigerians are actively involved in 419 scams and describing this cannot be racist! What is racist is trying to make it seem that ONLY Nigerians do all frauds listed there. Second paragraph: Have you ever been to Lagos or read a citable unbiased reference to this? What do you mean by subculture? I don't this is verifiable but prejudiced. Third paragraph: Perfectly true, but that is mainly email scams (they are almost exclusive in email scams) not the other types of Advanced fee fraud. Also, this alone is not enough to justify paragraph two or be completely prejudiced to the whole Nation concerning fraud. Paragraph four: As for the types of letters, I do agree on content and style but I can't agree with you concerning indonesians unless it is verifiable. Paragraph five: I am not a defender of Nigeria. In fact, I was defrauded by a Lagosian. I'm just against dishonesty, unfairness and exaggerations.


 * You say "they are almost exclusive in email scams" -- that is exactly what I'm saying. I don't especially care about "other" (non-email) kinds of advance fee fraud, or any other kind of fraud.  I think people come to this Wikipedia article to find some explanation for the emails that are flooding their inboxes.


 * I haven't been to Lagos, but I have been studying these emails and reading analysis of them (including law enforcement, security, international sources) for years. My mention of Indonesia was intended as a joke. Kestenbaum 14:40, 23 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Racism accusations are completely out of place here. In the modern world accusing someone of "racism" has become a fashion and a really cheap tool for discrediting. Saying that *Nigerians* perform these scams is not racism. Racism is not related to nationality but to ethnicity. Saying "Nigerian" is not singling out some ethnical group, it's singling out a nationality. You can say that it's unfair towards the country of Nigeria and its inhabitants, but that's different from racism, which is prejudice based on ethnicity/race and has nothing to do with nationality. Nowadays the "racism card" is a really cheap trick for getting points in a discussion. It's a childish gimmick, and we should be above that. Wopr 02:13, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

The article is very accurate and very fair. At one point in time, I was told in a face-to-face meeting in Nigeria, with an Interpol Agent, that these types of scams were the third largest export in the country. And this was in 1994!! I have been to Nigeria, as I mention elsewhere, and I assure you that the scams are so prevalent that they can be found in almost every segment of society. At one point, I was targeted because of my actitivites to expose these scams that I actually had several Nigerian soldiers guarding me durng the day. Later, when I get back to the U.S., I started one of the first Nigerian scam websites and received emails everyday from people all over the world thanking me for my website and saving their lives and their money.

So, let's be clear, this article is indeed saving lives and money. And the scammers hate Wikipedia for doing it. You know when you've done something right because that's when scammers will try and delete an article or aim vandalism at it. Jtpaladin 18:28, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Government reporting
Warnings issued by United States government: ''The United States Federal Trade Commission has issued a consumer alert about the Nigerian scam. It says: "If you receive an offer via email from someone claiming to need your help getting money out of Nigeria — or any other country, for that matter — forward it to the FTC at spam@uce.gov." The United States Department of the Treasury advises: "You may also email the 419er documents, especially any banking data they may have given you, marked as described above, to Task Force Main in DC 419.fcd@usss.treas.gov; that is also acceptable." '' I wonder if this ought to be removed unless there is evidence the FTC or Treasury department is actually doing anything with the reports. From what I've seen they haven't done anything useful with the reports since 5-10 years ago when they started asking for them. -Rolypolyman 19:39, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

The Check Scam is Advance Fee Fraud
The title of this article is advance fee fraud. According to the classifications used by most Internet crime investigators including the FBI and the antiphishing working group the check scam is an advance fee fraud even though it is not a 419 scam or nigerian letter.

The current article is too Internet centric in any case, an advance fee fraud is a very general category. The encyclopedia should not be biased towards the categories that the editors are most familiar with. There is even a non-Internet version of the fraud done as an in person confidence trick where a person on a beach 'finds' a wallet stuffed with money.

If the article is going to go into the Nigerian gangs it should also include details of the 'wish wash' scam that is usually played if the Mugu actually goes to Nigeria. This again is an advance fee fraud.

Finaly Phill Hallam-Baker has speculated that the current crop of nigerian letters are the result of the original gangs selling 'franchises' for the fraud to gullible people thinking they will make a fortune. In effect running the same advance fee fraud against their franchisees that the franchisees hope to play on others. --Gorgonzilla 14:56, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Removing unsourced statement
''Another effect of the scam's proliferation is that ordinary Nigerians are having their access to the internet hindered. One reporter in Nigeria sent this in an email to his producers in late 2005: [citation needed]'' "Connecting a lap top in a cybercafe [in Nigeria] is a nightmare. Because of the 419 scam, cybercafe operators are reluctant to connect peoples lap tops. The few who do have to make some settings to your lap top and most often it would not work."

I've searched for various combinations of this quote and keywords, and nothing has come up to indicate it has been published elsewhere (online). If another source is available for this, please cite it. --Marysunshine 21:33, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, it would be helpful to this article if additional unsourced statements are NOT included. When information is added, kindly indicate where it came from. Sincerely, GeorgeLouis 22:15, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Propsed reorg
This article is a mess because it is writtend as if 419 fraud is synonymous wth advance fee fraud. In fact the nigerian letters are only one example of a very old scam. The FBI used thye term advance fee fraud before there was an internet. The article should be rewritten accordingly. It should also link to sites describing the wish-wash and other examples. -- Gorgonzilla 23:48, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
 * The article is really about Nigerian money transfer fraud. Perhaps Advance fee fraud should redirect to confidence game (or one of the other articles like Spanish Prisoner), and this article be renamed Online advanced fee fraud or the like? But perhaps "Advance fee fraud" deserves a separate article spun off from this one... it's quite a mess. Well.. be bold :) —Pengo 23:59, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't think splitting would be useful. Advance fee fraud is the superset. The nigerian letter is merely the best known current example, the cashiers check schemes are essentially the same game, as is the wish-wash in which the mark is given a suitcase full of money covered in a dye and told that the removal agent is costly to get hold of. It is the same people behind those scams. Meanwhile there are gangs all over the world doing the 419 scam. --Gorgonzilla 03:42, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
 * This article is VERY long ( althrough removing the example letters would help ) and Internet fraud is probably more important to the average person today than 17th century Spanish prisoners. A split might be warrented.  FireWeed 19:14, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Counterfeit check image
Somone replaced the counterfeit check image with this one that has "FAKE" repeated across it. That doesn't make sense to me, because: Wmahan. 06:09, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
 * The original image is still there, and not linking to it is hardly a secure way of keeping it from scammers.
 * If the original were removed, we couldn't delete every copy that has been distributed even if we had the legal authority--which we don't because the image has already been distributed under the GFDL.
 * There's nothing stopping an unscrupulous person from getting a cashier's check and scanning it, so removing this one doesn't make scamming much harder.
 * The new image is much less readable, defeating the purpose of having one at all.
 * The original image already has some of the personal information blacked out.


 * I restored the original image again. If you really think it risks enabling scammers, I think the appropriate step would be to list commons:Image:Well's fargo counterfit cashier's check.jpg for deletion. Changing the image here won't make it unavailable. Wmahan. 01:22, 10 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Locking your front door doesn't make it impossible for a burglar to get in, but we all still do it. Making things harder, even if only a little bit harder, for the scammers described in this article has to be the logical step. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Edit1uk (talk • contribs) 08:03, 11 April 2007 (UTC).

Let's don't panic
I have been in Nigeria many times and have to say that even though I have seen myself 419 fraud and crime, my perception of Nigerians was generally positive. They are intelligent and creative people and most of them are very hard working and honest. I felt safer in Nigeria then i do in most US metropolitan areas. Vigilance is good but lets put it all in perspective, we are being ripped off in our home countries, by our home grown criminals, by far more often then by Nigerians.--Mike Sorensen 14:21, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

255 ip addresses per all of niger?
According to, Niger only has 255 IP addresses assigned to it. Makes one wonder if a majority of so-called Nigerian money scams do not, in fact, come from Niger. I mean, for some reason, I doubt that all such scams come from the same 255 IP addresses... TerraFrost 18:17, 4 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Niger is not the same as Nigeria. The latter must have much more IP addresses assigned. However you're right about scam-spam coming from other countries, like the rest of West Africa (Ghana, Togo, Benin), South Africa and places like Amsterdam, London, Dubai, Madrid. --Filius Rosadis 18:40, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Mary Winkler
Mary Winkler has not been found guilty of any crime yet (in relation to the shooting of her husband, connected with a 419 scam), as such the text has been changed to reflect that she has yet to stand trial in a court of law. Doctorbob 17:48, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Scam-o-rama reference
This book was added to the list of books by Scamorama (talk • contribs). I have removed it as a possible violation of WP:COI: --A. B. (talk) 03:10, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
 * "'Scam-o-rama' by Eve Edelson, published by the Disinformation Company. Ms Edelson is the curator of the 'Scamorama.com' web site. The emphasis there and in the book is on the amusing, as some folks retaliate against the scammers. Quite a lot of it is hilarious. ISBN 1932857389"
 * I think this quote is far too short to be a copyright infringement, especially seeing as how it doesn't give away the most saleable parts of the book. ( Gerald Ford was able to sue a newspaper for copyright infringement for publishing a small excerpt of his book, because it was the part explaining why her pardoned Richard Nixon - the reason most people would buy the book. )  I don't see any reason this could be a problem, although it should be noted I'm not an attorney, just an interested individual.  FireWeed 19:30, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
 * COI is a conflict of interest violation. Editors should not be adding links to articles about books they published Nil Einne (talk) 14:33, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Spanish Prisoner Scam? Does anyone have a source for that?
I would be very curious to learn more about this 1588 "spanish prisoner letter." Just because it's a great story. --Crestodina 00:47, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

See my comment above. Jackiespeel 16:24, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

General Comments and "To Catch A Con Man"
1. The article is in serious need of a cleanup. All of those examples letters are our of place and excessive. Unless there is some serious objections on here, I am going to go ahead and delete all those example letters. If somebody feels they should be relocated somewhere else, they should do that, but if anybody really needs to see and advance fee fraud email, they can check their own email, maybe the junk folder, or any one of a billion anti-419 sites
 * I went ahead and deleted example letters...Butnotthehippo 07:16, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

2. This talk page needs to be archived, cleaned up, SOMETHING! I am not sure of proper WP or procedure on this, but this talk page seems a congolmeration of old information and information that doesn't even belong on a talk page in the first place.

3. I hope somebody will take more iniative to clean this article up. I know I am when I get a chance. If I came here and really wanted to know more about 419 I would be so confused.
 * I went ahead and did a lot of cleanup. It needs a lot more though. I would like to see if it could be made to be internally consistent. I know 419 is the primary type of advance feee fraud, but both terms are used interchangeably. Maybe all 419 references could be changed to advance fee fraud.Butnotthehippo 07:16, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

4. NBC did a special on Dateline NBC about AFF this week and it had a lot of useful information. I only TiVoed the first 6 minutes and missed it. If anybody saw it or knows of the information online, it would be a useful addition. The show was called "To Catch a Con Man". Butnotthehippo 06:07, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I found the link to To Catch a Con Man There is a transcript on there here if somebody wants to glean a lot of good (and Verifiable!!!) information they can go through it before I get a chance to...Butnotthehippo 06:12, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I added some info and made a seperate page for the new show (To Catch a Con Man)Butnotthehippo 07:16, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Suspicious Signs in E-mail Messages
I was disappointed that the "Suspicous Signs in E-mail Messages" section was removed recently. I think that part was very useful information to let people be able to recognize fraudulent scams when they see them. So I think that should be included again. But it doesn't have to be at the top of the page where it used to be. I think it should be down at the bottom of the page. Marknagel 09:35, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
 * We have to follow an encyclopedic format, Marknagel. There are always sites that provide to give users actual tips - this is here just to describe the scamming phenomenon. If we have a government source, we could adapt their "tips" into an encyclopedic manner. WhisperToMe 16:36, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Advice to victims
is this section necessary or fit for an encyclopedia? we don't have an advice section on the Rape page for victims, why should we here? i'm going to delete it.
 * You are correct. Here's an internal link to Wikipedia's policy page on "what Wikipedia is not": "Wikipedia is not a manual, guidebook, or textbook". Flowanda | Talk 23:29, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Removed section
This section seems to be some kind of alert rather than encyclopaedic; it was put right at the top of the article. --84.65.21.21 11:02, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Warnings issued by United States government
The United States Federal Trade Commission has issued a consumer alert about the Nigerian scam. It says:
 * "If you receive an offer via email from someone claiming to need your help getting money out of Nigeria &mdash; or any other country, for that matter &mdash; forward it to the FTC at spam@uce.gov."

The United States Department of the Treasury maintains an email address to which the public may send 419 related documents when they have incurred no financial loss. These emails are archived to assist in future investigations.

If there is a financial loss, people are asked to file a Financial Loss complaint form online with the Internet Crime Complaint Center, which is a partnership between the National White Collar Crime Center and the Federal Bureau of Investigation, at http://www.ic3.gov.

Ultrascan and other sources
I think that Ultrascan should not be cited or linked to. Their website does not contain any informations how their "research data" has been obtained. Research about a globalized crime like this one whould require a mass of inquiries. They present data that comes from so-called "experts" that are not being named or cited. No mailing address or physical address is listed on the site, the website lacks in general informations about what ultrascan actually is, etc. etc. Not a credible source, really. I'd also skip the links to 419eater, thescambaiter.com and 419legal.org. Originally 419legal was owned by the South African Police Services but in the current state it seems to be just a repository for scam emails and news reports that are being posted by bots. Many enquiries from visitors are not being answered and some of the forum ads lead to HYIP-scams. 419eater and thescambaiter are scambaiting websites and should be kept in that rticle. The same goes for the mentioned books. They are almost exclusively about scambaiting and have not much to do with this article.. 91.59.254.220 13:22, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Generalisations about Nigeria and Nigerians
There is immense value to be had from people who have visited Nigeria or live there. Nigeria is definitely a place where visitors must keep their eyes open. However things change very quickly and dated personal experience should not be presented as "canonical." Some of the statements made here - foreigners being killed in the airport - are somewhat generic, as cases where foreigners have been killed in US & UK airports and cities abound.

Things change a lot over time and experience from over 15 years ago is not likely to be as accurate as is presented (e.g. in 1994, South Africa was still in Apartheid, Zimbabwe was still a model state). The challenge for Nigerians is the 1% of the population that are criminal. With a population of over 140 million, that’s over 1.4 million “criminals” representing “Nigerians” all over the world. The impression that Nigeria is a country of scammers or that Nigerians are inherently dishonest is misleading, wrong and unfair.

This does not in anyway take away from the fact that advance fee fraud is a major problem and everyone must take precautions to limit its devastating effect. Ajisekanla (talk) 14:50, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Law Enforcement Advice for Victims
While this page provides a lot of information on Advance Fee Fraud, it barely mentions the recourse available to the victims. A section on the EFCC, filing a complaint, etc would be helpful here. Ajisekanla (talk) 16:52, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Apparently this page once had such advice, but it was deleted. See above on this page, "Advice for Victims." Here's an internal link to Wikipedia's policy page on "what Wikipedia is not": "Wikipedia is not a manual, guidebook, or textbook". Sincerely, GeorgeLouis (talk) 18:30, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Attention!
Editors,

This page is for discussion of the content of the wikipedia entry 'advance fee fraud'.

It is *not* a page for:

general discussion of the topic, unconnected to the page

relating personal experiences (post a link instead)

posting up examples of advance fee fraud communications you might have received (post a link instead)

debates about Nigerian society

Unnecessary posting of all of the above is causing the talk page to be so long and difficult to read through that I am considering pruning some of the Talk - a drastic step. 91.106.223.96 (talk) 15:07, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Step taken. If you want readers of the talk page to see the 419 letter you received last week, or hear what happened to you at the Sheraton in Lagos (you know who you are), then please post a link if you must. I took this action to try and return this talk page just vaguely to within talk page guidelines.

Centrepull (talk) 11:24, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * What step was taken? -- Thin  boy  00  @978, i.e. 22:28, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Message No. 419
Nerdcore artist MC Frontalot has a song, "Message No. 419" which focuses on the 419 scam. Is this noteable enough to include in the "Media references and resources" section? TransOceanic (talk) 03:37, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't know. Wikipedia is bigger on trivial information like this than substantial information it seems.  I think if you include a reference to a news article talking about the song and its focus on the 419 scams it might be included in a popular culture section.  --Blechnic (talk) 03:55, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Examples
The examples in this article need limited and rewritten, so that a single example, rather than a list, illustrates a point. The way the examples are written they detract from the article as a whole. The tag on the article page calls it an examplefarm. I think this is an accurate description of how poorly done this is. I encourage editors to start eliminating and editing examples. --Blechnic (talk) 02:02, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Why are 419 scams so-called?
I was looking for an answer to this —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.162.242.12 (talk) 11:25, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Fiedler
Edna Fiedler, 44, of Olympia, Washington, on June 25, 2008, pleaded guilty in a Tacoma court and was sentenced to 2 years imprisonment and 5 years of supervised release or probation in an Internet $1 million "Nigerian check scam." She conspired to commit bank, wire and mail fraud, against US citizens, specifically using Internet by having had an accomplice who shipped counterfeit checks and money orders to her from Lagos, Nigeria, last November. Fiedler shipped out $ 609,000 fake check and money orders when arrested and prepared to send additional  $ 1.1 million counterfeit materials. Also, the U.S. Postal Service recently intercepted $ 2.1 billion counterfeit checks, lottery tickets and eBay overpayment schemes with a face value of $2.1 billion.upi.com, Woman gets prison for 'Nigerian' scamyahoo.com, Woman Gets Two Years for Aiding Nigerian Internet Check Scam (PC World)--Florentino floro (talk) 10:43, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Spam from Amsterdam
good reliable source http://www.nrc.nl/international/article2017172.ece/Amsterdam_is_the_centre_of_Nigerian_spam_network Andries (talk) 19:03, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Related article needs help
Moneygram has been flagged as needing references since April 2007. Maybe it needs to be shortened, and pointed to another article with the Main template.

I thought I'd flag it here since it seems a related topic, and more active here. --Chriswaterguy talk 06:37, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Merger proposal
The Urgent Assistance article appears to just be a specific example of a 419 email. Unless it's a particularly legendary example, it seems like it could just be merged into this article. What do other editors think? --McGeddon (talk) 11:48, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I've given up and just redirected it. It doesn't seem to be particularly notable. --McGeddon (talk) 15:44, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Be aware
From a few days ago  Enigma msg  07:01, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

$150,000 from one victim
Not sure whether this would fit the article. It's certainly a huge sum (though presumably the amounts are Canadian dollars, rather than US).


 * In a 2007 scam. thieves based in London, England netted $150,000 from an Ontario man, who they told was due to inherit money from a distant relative who had been killed in a bomb attack in 2005. The man borrowed heavily from his mother and an uncle to feed the demands of the scammers.


 * 419ers take Canadian for $150,000, The Register, 15th January 2009

Wording is mine, GFDL. --TS 01:03, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Here (CBC News) is another source which clarifies that, although the scam started with an email in 2007, it only ended two weeks ago when the victim finally wised up and called the police. It's a Canadian source so yes, the amounts are in Canadian currency. --TS 01:08, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Apartment Rental scam
I just added information about apartment scam that I could have been a victim of (had I been more gullible and not researched the facts). In addition to the information I posted, here I have exchanged correspondences between myself and the scammer. See my blog post on it for details ESLachance (talk) 19:06, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry, personal stories fail our Verifiability standards. --TS 19:18, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

I have a new one
Is a woman, she says she is from Phillipine and have a box wiht 15 milions dollars to "send" to you to protect the box from local enemys. Interesting how easy is to detect the fraud, and how ingeuous is the scammer —Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.58.237.131 (talk) 03:00, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

A new variation?
I once heard from somewhere that someone was embezzeled in a curious version of the nigerian prince scam, someone went through the standard version of the scam, but actually deposited the money in the account. However, then the scammer proceeded to withdraw the deposited money plus a substantial amount of other money. The person was defrauded for 3 years, until the spamee got smart and withdrew all the money in his account when the payment came in. Can this be verified? Or is this just a made up fish story/urban legend?--Ipatrol (talk) 01:36, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Is there a reliable source that talks about it? WhisperToMe (talk) 18:25, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

North America, UK, and Australia
In the second paragraph it states

In the 2000s, the 419 scam has spurred imitations from other locations in Africa, Asia and Eastern Europe, and, more recently, from North America, Western Europe (mainly UK), and Australia, the latter three mainly done by Africans.

Is this really done mainly by Africans in the latter three? There is no citation provided for this. 124.186.246.195 (talk) 10:33, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

What now seems to be another mode of operation is a main stream scam that ties in both Brokers and Customers.The Brokers give those collecting the fees a legal front.Proliferated by the desperation of companies and individuals to raise capital after the crash of the markets and banking system in 2009 this seems to be stemming from North America using UK Brokers.The companies based mainly in Canada produce a worthless letter of interest then collect fees to undertake due diligence on a project but with what seems no intention of funding them. However they maintain contact for very long periods of time using mobile based technology answer phones and just a veil of what appears to be legitimate.Eventually the prospective customer gives in due to the delays and any refund of the upfront fees never materialises. This is proved by many postings on the internet to be a rising trend many examples of paying the upfront fees and being delivered nothing but delays and excuses.Recent high profile evidence allegedly focus on Ontario in Canada Prospexx Integrated Capital and Barrett Capital Exchange are mentioned repeatedly.

Al Gore
Why is Al Gore in the notable con man list ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.160.158.254 (talk) 20:50, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

Billions?
Are there any references to back the claim that billions of dollars are made annually in such scams? Seems high to me.

An issue here is that many of the 419 scams use spoofs of banks and sometimes even fake copies of their websites. Typically money is paid to these fictitious banks and we find a lot of scam statistic are misclassified under phishing scams. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.210.207.97 (talk) 12:24, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

"Check" vs "Cheque"
I see that we have one of the famous "British Spelling vs American Spelling" issues right here in our own beloved little article. To wit: "check" vs "cheque" for the instrument of monetary transfer.

There had been an attempt to standardize on "cheque", which I had rolled back before I realized the article was not already internally consistant on "check". Digging deeper, I realized there was a genuine problem: WP:ENGVAR does call upon us to standardize on one spelling or the other within a particular article. So, then I took a step back and tried to think, which spelling should we standardize on?

In the end, I felt that the "check" spelling had the stronger claim for several reasons: — Rnickel (talk) 17:06, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
 * 1) There were far more mentions using the "check" spelling than the "cheque" spelling.
 * 2) The subheadings within the article all used the "check" spelling.
 * 3) The references cited within the article appear to prefer the "check" spelling.

Cyberbegging
People are using cyberbegging sites for scamming people. Including the I need the money now and will pay you later technique. Would it make sense to mention it in this articale and link to a cyberbegging article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.178.75.42 (talk) 01:52, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Non-notable film
The film added to the article as "award winning" and "first ever on the topic" was only sourced to the film's own self-promotional website. WP:RS sources have nothing on it, except this article from "Canada.com" which describes it as a short-subject film-school project. I believe it was included for self-promotional reasons, in violation of WP:SPIP, so all mention has been duly removed. Please find reliable evidence that this film has received notice from a impartial third-party before any attempt to reintroduce it into the article. Thank you. —Rnickel (talk) 17:06, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

email for ftc.gov
I think the email is now: spam@uce.gov (not: uce@ftc.gov) Let's see how long this reporting contact lasts. I have personally shut down every other one in existence. They have proved to be just drop boxes for emails and when the box get's too full, they shut down. No one ever checks the drop boxes. Since these reporting centers really do not exist, I just add the fraud/scam artists to my annonymus email list and shut them down that way. The FBI agree that since these criminals can't be charged by our legal systems, it is a good idea. Also, I have been threatened by HOTMAIL to leave their customers alone, after which I notified INTERPOL that HOTMAIL was directly connected to this criminal activity. HOTMAIL has not threatened me since.
 * Then they shouldn't be called "Hotmail" anymore, should they? =) J I P  &#124; Talk 13:37, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

scam baiters
should we have a section on them. They are a hoot... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.246.158.16 (talk) 22:05, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

I agree,i think it would be useful aswell to add some info on spam baiting  J e n o v a  20 13:35, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

419 scam spelling mistakes are deliberate?
What proof or references are there to justify the article's assertion that the typical 419 emails' grammatical/spelling mistakes are deliberate? I see no logical reason to conclude this.

This is an analytical exposition, and from the way the author sounded it seems he had once been a victim of scam or he got his information first hand from a victim of fraudulent transactions involving Nigerian scammers. The word ‘419’ used by the author to explain the nature of the scam examined originally referred to section 419 of the Nigerian Criminal Code dealing with obtaining goods by false pretences. Although section 419 appeared in the footnote of the article the section was not properly examined to show that the word is used in reference to a section prohibiting the offence of obtaining by false pretences.

The author did not highlight the fact that due to the prominence of the offence which became an index with which Nigeria’s personality was defined globally constrained the Nigerian Legislature to enact an Act – Advance Fee Fraud and other Related Offences Act, 2006 which prohibits both the offences of obtaining property by false pretences and money laundering which enhanced the punishment to a term not more than 20 years and not less than 7 years without option of fine, as against the 3 years and 7 years imprisonment depending on the amount involved in the scam under the Criminal Code. This would have brought to the fore the efforts of the Nigerian government to curtail the menace of the offence.

The above would have led the author to examine the nexus between the offence of obtaining by false pretences and money laundering because those who obtain funds through such scams tend to disguise the nature, source and the origin of such funds by investing them in seemingly legitimate businesses. This would have had the effect of educating victims that they can trace their funds to such businesses.

The author also talked about ‘alert officials’ when it dawns on any victim that he has been duped. But he failed to mention the officials. These are the Economic and Financial Crimes Commission (EFCC); the National Drug Law Enforcement Agency (NDLEA); and the Central Bank of Nigeria (CBN). These are bodies charged with the responsibilities of monitoring all financial transactions in order to put any account under surveillance so as to trace the owners of any lodgment in a bank account. In fact section 12 of the Foreign Exchange (Monitoring and Miscellaneous Provision) Act 1995 empowers the Nigerian Customs Service to report any transactions to or from a foreign country made pursuant to this law when the funds or securities involves a sum greater than $10, 000.00. This is useful piece of information so that victims know where to run to in distressed periods.

The author should have used the appropriate words used for obtaining by false pretences in South Africa in the case of one Mr Osamai Hiromi, a Japanese business man lured to Johannesburg, South Africa by scammers instead of using 419scam a term popularly used in to Nigeria to refer to the offence of obtaining goods by false pretences under section 419 of the Criminal Code and now under Part 1 of the Advance Fee Fraud and other Related Offences Act, 2006.

The author examined the offence of kidnapping and, it is submitted that that did not derail the focus of the offence because in some cases the con men do lure their victims to their home countries who are eventually kidnapped and killed. On the whole the article is informative and educative as, it is a wake up call to users of the Internet and mobile phones to be wary of the email messages and text massages which offers them mouth watering deals.

Ikpe 00:00, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Dr Suleiman Oji, Esq   — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ikpe (talk • contribs) 00:00, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

American Dialect Society
I have removed the following information from the lead of the article:

The American Dialect Society has traced the term "419 fraud" back to 1992.

I don't think that the statement is really backed up with what is provided in the link, which goes to an email mailing list posting by John Baker in 2005, citing an AFP article from 1992. The only time 1992 is mentioned in the link is at "The term dates back at least to this 2/21/1992 Agence France-Presse article:" and "A Business America article on 1/13/1992 described these scams in some detail." There is no information in the link suggesting that there is an American Dialect Society study tracing the origins of "419" to 1992, and there is no information suggesting who John Baker is or that he is a member or researcher in the organization (other than the fact that he's subscribed to the ADS-L listserv, which isn't confirmation of membership in the organization). There is also no information in the link that the ADS organized any such study (or paid for one) to trace "419" back to any particular date. It's not even clear the John Baker did this -- all he did was copy the contents of an AFP article (probably in violation of copyright law) from 1992, and send it to members of the list.

If anyone can find a citation for the statement, that meets WP:RS and actually backs up what is being said, I think it can be added back to an appropriate section of the article (although possibly the history section -- the lead is supposed to be an introduction, and citations of new information are not preferred there). WTF? (talk) 18:27, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

Friend
How do I convence tht he is being taken ?? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.75.88.36 (talk) 20:49, 1 June 2012 (UTC)


 * This is a talk page for the article on Nigerian 419 scams, for discussion about improving the article itself. It is not a discussion board for advice on dealing with actual fraud cases. If you suspect that you or a loved one is about to become involved in a complicated and illegal fraud, I would recommend contacting local law enforcement or the Better Business Bureau, or other authorities. If they don't have the resources available to help you, they will know who to contact. WTF? (talk) 19:37, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

Statistics
I was gathering some material on this, however the sources that I found deal with all kinds of internet fraud (such as ebay nondelivery). It seems that most scammers operate from US and UK, while countries with disproportionately huge populations of scammers include Nigeria, Romania and Netherlands.


 * http://www.consumerfraudreporting.org/internet_scam_statistics.htm
 * http://www.ic3.gov/media/annualreports.aspx

looking for more before I try to incorporate it into the article. Richiez (talk) 15:50, 21 May 2012 (UTC)


 * The consumerfraudreporting.org article you give as a sources deals predominantly with scams other than advance fee fraud. Only relatively small numbers of advance feed fraudsters are based in the US (there are far more in Canada, Malaysia and other Commonwealth countries). This is evidenced for example by the distribution of phone numbers seen in advance fee fraud emails, where US numbers are relatively rare. Joewein (talk) 13:43, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Source of top three nations
Would anyone kindly provide a source? My source, the scamtracker at 419eater.com, consistently put more 419-scams in Lagos alone than in any other place in the world. In the moment of writing, more scams actually come from one part of Lagos than USA. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.56.1.222 (talk) 08:14, 23 December 2012 (UTC)


 * I have already mentioned the problem here. The problem - most sources on internet fraud put all kinds of internet fraud into one bag with the obvious result. Does 419eater publish some yearly statistics? Richiez (talk) 11:15, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I removed it, but someone addded it back. They rightly pointed out I did not put the reason. So now I have added a reason. The material is unsource, with no reference to back up what is a very dubious claim. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.78.42.15 (talk) 00:14, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

Support Call Scam
Unsuspecting computer owners and users are being targeted by people claiming to be from Windows i.e. Microsoft or from their internet provider and then telling them that their computer/machine is creating errors and they need to correct the faults on their computers, they even get people to go to one site or another to show them so called errors, they are then required to give their credit card details so that they can purchase some form of support then they are asked to allow remote connection so that they can fix the problems. The victim's computer is then infected with Mal-ware or Spyware or Remote connection software such as Virtualpcsecure. Microsoft have released this response however it seems the scams still continue.http://www.microsoft.com/security/online-privacy/avoid-phone-scams.aspx — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gpaul1 (talk • contribs) 12:27, 11 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I got one of those calls (didn't fall for it). It's not a Nigerian scam so it doesn't belong in this article. The end of Telemarketing fraud is about it. Voice phishing also has a brief mention: "Another variation encourages a victim to install Scareware on an unrelated computer system at the same address as the Phone connection." PrimeHunter (talk) 12:59, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Award-winning "American Hustle" is about a $2million scam
"In 1978, con artists Irving Rosenfeld and Sydney Prosser have met, started a relationship, and are working together. Sydney has improved Irving’s scams, posing as British aristocrat "Lady Edith Greensley". They are a well-matched couple, but Irving is reluctant to leave his adoptive son with wife Rosalyn, who will not divorce him. FBI agent Richard "Richie" DiMaso catches Irving and Sydney in a loan scam but offers to release them if Irving can line up four additional arrests. Sydney opposes the agreement. Richie believes Sydney is British but has proof that her claim of aristocracy is fraudulent. Sydney tells Irving she will manipulate Richie, distancing herself from Irving. Irving has a friend pretending to be a wealthy Arab Sheikh looking for potential investments in America. An associate of Irving's suggests that the Sheikh do business with Mayor Carmine Polito of Camden, New Jersey. The popular mayor is campaigning to revitalize gambling in Atlantic City but has struggled to raise the necessary funds. Richie devises a plan to entrap Carmine despite the objections of his boss Stoddard Thorsen and Irving. Sydney helps Richie manipulate an FBI secretary into making an unauthorized wire transfer of $2,000,000. When Stoddard's boss, Anthony Amado, hears of the operation, he praises Richie's initiative, pressuring Stoddard to continue the operation." From American_Hustle   ... (Wikipedia article).
 * This can go into the 'Pop Culture' section. — Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 00:46, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

Internet Infobox?
Why does this have an Internet Infobox? This is really unrelated and doesn't make much sense. Centerone (talk) 22:11, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Renaming per WP:COMMONNAME
The old name ("Advance-fee fraud") was in no way adequate to describe the variety of techniques used for fraud and only marginally known at best. As far as I can see Nigeria scam is the most widely used name. 419 fraud would another possible name however it seems less recognizable and although it may appear more "politically correct" at first glance it is still strongly linked to Nigeria. Richiez (talk) 23:02, 20 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Actually, based on most of the content in the article (which is very poorly organized), I would say that "advanced fee fraud" is the better term for this, as it is more all-encompassing. Referring to this specifically as "Nigerian 419" (or variants thereof) is somewhat misleading because the scam really didn't originate in Nigeria nor are a majority of the scammers actually in Nigeria. However, the name seems to have stuck because the country has developed a reputation for this type of thing, and a lot of scammers do come from there. Plus, it's a convenient label because 419 is their criminal code for fraud. But many examples cited in this article go way beyond "Nigerian 419", which is why I think the article would be better if moved to "advanced fee fraud". WTF? (talk) 19:43, 22 June 2012 (UTC)


 * There are many other internet fraud articles, perhaps too many. This article should be limitted to frauds that are commonly tied to that term, the rest moved to other fraud articles. However "advance fee fraud" is a really poor name and neither all-encompassing - varoius "romance scams" can have wildly different exploitation patterns. Regardless, the name should not be all-encompassing but instead content that does not fit Nigerian scam pattern moved to one of the dozens of other fraud articles. Richiez (talk) 17:17, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

Renaming per WP:Neutral point of view
The current name ("419 scams") does not conform to WP:Neutral point of view, a requirement for WP:COMMONNAME. 419 refers to Nigeria, and while it's better than "Nigerian scam," it still implies a strong connection with Nigeria. I'm in the anti-spam industry and I can definitely confirm that Nigeria is one of the biggest players in sending advance-fee fraud scams (likely #1, if you were to unwrap the true location or ethnicity of the webmail scammers). That said, I think it does the country a disservice to use this title. I suggest reverting the name of this article to "Advance-fee fraud." I also disagree with Richiez on the topic of applicability. All 419 scams are advance-fee fraud. Only some "romance scams" are 419/advance-fee fraud. Romance scams are often the build-up to advance-fee frauds (e.g. "Honey, I need a loan"), but they could also be build-up to blackmail, phishing, or even just porn ads. Adam KatzΔ☎  18:20, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I agree that it should be moved to "Advanced fee-fraud", cos everything about this subject infact is advanced fee-fraud.--Jamie Tubers (talk) 00:03, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

A sub-type of "419" letters
Quite often, if a person is _known_ to be male (e.q. has an account in a social network), "official's daughter" scheme can come in. This scheme often incorporates a photo of an attractive woman, who is a daughter of a rich person (sometimes the person is said to be dead). When an attractive woman wants your help in migrating to your country and promises a huge amount of cash, it's certainly an Advance-Fee Fraud. Just search the Internet for the email username (part before the @ symbol - e.q. in email 1@2.3, 1 is what you must search for). Yura87 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 15:32, 10 December 2010 (UTC).
 * Smart enough people will have already learned to treat any proposal made by a person they've never heard of before as a 419 scam. J I P  &#124; Talk 19:08, 9 March 2011 (UTC)


 * There are quite a few types of current "419" letters. We find the "inheritance scam" where some party is claimed to have died and the potential victim's assistance is required to move the money from a bank account. Then there is the "dying widow" scam (e.g. search for "mariam abacha scam") where the widow of some wealthy persona that has previously died wishes to disburse her wealth for charitable purposes, "investment scam" where some unknown person seeks your assistance in investing and requires teh victims help in moving the money etc DerekSmythe (talk) 12:33, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

GMail masking senders IP / stripping headers
Is there a source on that? I never heard of that before and it sounds implausible to me. Could somebody clarify that, please? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Markus.lautenbach (talk • contribs) 14:33, 22 July 2012 (UTC)


 * There's actually quite a bit of information in that section that is not sourced or poorly sourced. A lot of it probably needs a good workover. As for Gmail, from experience, most of these messages don't even end up in the inbox because the spam filter catches them. WTF? (talk) 15:15, 22 July 2012 (UTC)


 * A few things come together in this allegation. GMail strips originating IP addresses. So do other popular services providers. This is done in an effort to protect the user's privacy. While certain types of scams most certainly never make it off GMail's services, the problem here lies in the types of scams and flow. In my personal work with victims, I've seen a dramatic shift to the services that provide these privacy features. Whereas the original scam email being sent out would hardly be on GMail's services, any follow-up communication is diverted to GMail, such as teh respond-to email address. Further we see GMail being used disproportionately in pet scams, black money scams, "Cameroonian scams" (which needs a proper looking at) and Classifieds scams.  DerekSmythe (talk) 12:34, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Advance-fee scam classification
There is much work to be done to properly classify the various forms of advance-fee scams. But a discussion and decision as to what purpose this article will serve has to be had first. As it is, this article attempts to define some scams, orphaning others. Of note here is the progression of a scam. Certain scams are distinctly different from other scams linked to other groups.

In the West Africa sense, we can discern among Nigerian, Sakawa and Cameroonian Scams as the main groups. Added to this are a subset of scams in wide usage across Africa. While some of the scam tools like the websites may appear to be the same across the groups (for reasons of fraudulent impersonation?), the usage and progression of the scam is distinctly different across groups and an indicator to investigators as to who the culprits may be.

We need to note that there is a danger in trying to see a specific type of scam as definitive. Many readers discount the possibility of being scammed if the attempt does not exactly match what he has encountered. If a scammer realizes he can't continue using the current scam for whichever reason, he may easily take another approach and switch scams. It's not uncommon for a victim to one of the diverse primary scams to attempt to recover his money by becoming a mule (unwittingly?). Similarly end up being involved in a reshipping scam or cheque scam. Typically defrauding a victim could be considered a group of interlinked scams.

Other current attempts includes breaking scams down to their base scams, then reassembling them into a tree-like structure linked to the previously mentions groups with read flag indicators for attribution as to the likely group. DerekSmythe (talk) 13:00, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Cameroonian scams
The website aa419.org has added a section "Export scams". For the bulk these are "Cameroonian export scams", a large threat to the the international community in itself. While unsubstantiated apart from my own victim assistance incidents and the amount of online scams found, losses to these scams are towering over losses to other types of advance-fee fraud. The phrase "These guys are making their neighbours look like boy scouts" has been made.

The perpetrators are invariably Cameroonian citizens. In the scam, items such as chicken feet/paws/claws and other agricultural products, paper, scrap metal, used types etc are used as bait and public on international trading websites. The buyer is expected to pay a deposit, take out insurance etc. In the process high quality documents are used. In a further disturbing development, real companies are registered at the authorities, only to be found an instrument of fraud upon later investigations. A good reference is the website http://www.419scammersexposed.com. Typically these scams are backed by fraudulent websites; the scamming seller, the insurance company and associated courier company.

It's not uncommon upon researching these frauds to find that the same contact details are being abused in "Cameroonian pet scams" in the local classifieds. Typically the scam advert may be backed by a fraudulent website. Upon the victim attempting to adopt/purchase the pet, a fictitious courier is used. Many a time this will be the same courier website also used in the export scams above.

The pet scam has also evolved. The pets have now been substituted with electronics goods (mobile phones, televisions, laptops, Xboxes etc), farm livestock (goats, cattle, sheep), wild game (lions, tigers, monkeys, exotic birds, snakes etc), generators, trailers, shipping containers, hotdog stands, cars, trucks and even heavy industrial equipment. It's also noteworthy that during a period in South Africa when there were brown-outs, adverts and websites linked to fraudulent generator sales flared up, showing these scammers monitor local events and are quick to exploit them (the scams in this instance were linked to Cameroonian citizens resident in South Africa). These scams may be once again backed by scam websites.

Of late drug sales scams have also become extremely popular. Once again classified ads is used. We further find Facebook being popular to propagate these scams. In the online scams linked to one party, we see non-existent companies claiming a US presence etc. In another group of scam linked to another party we find the scam Cannabis websites, "Medical Marijuana" websites. Steroids are also a popular bait. Of note in these scam websites is that the victim may "purchase" by entering his credit card details (typically via an unsecured page) leading to credit card related fraud. These websites may be referenced in the social media marketing such as Facebook. Typically we once again find much marketing in places such as the online classifieds.

While this subgroup is also involved in other scams such as black money scams and magic spell scams (thus far extremely sensitive and virtually unknown, yet flourishing), these scams are not as limited to this group but is in wider usage in the "African type" of scams.

This group and their related scams needs to be documented as it falls squarely in the realm of advance-fee fraud. Not much material may be available publicly as reference though, due to it having slipped under the radar for so long. DerekSmythe (talk) 13:30, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Useful article
Even without references, here and there, it is a useful article: some scams I have not been aware of. Thanks to all its authors. Zezen (talk) 12:41, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

Jette Jacobs
This paragraph should probably be reworked into a separate section into the dangers of traveling in scams along with other victim details. Victims are regularly mugged, raped and murdered. As such the term travel in a scam perspective is normally seen as a red flag in law enforcement and victim assistance/warning circles.

DerekSmythe (talk) 23:49, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 11 November 2015

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: moved as proposed. There is a clear consensus that "Advance" is a superior title to the current "Advanced". There was reasonable proposal made that "Advance-fee fraud" would be an even better title – unfortunately the discussion was relatively sparse and there was no clear consensus about which would be better. So I'm closing this by defaulting to the status quo of "scam", but would suggest that a new RM be started to solely discuss the issue of "scam" vs "fraud". Jenks24 (talk) 09:08, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

Advanced-fee scam → Advance-fee scam – Correct spelling, grammar or idiomatic usage, whichever you prefer! "Advanced" is a common misspelling or misunderstanding of "advance". This article refers to fees paid in advance, not to advanced (sophisticated?) fees.

It has had this title before, in early 2014. This move would be uncontroversial and automatic, except there has been substantial discussion about the title, and it has had this name before. However, neither the opposition to nor the support of this name was based on its being ungrammatical. As far as I could see, discussions centered on semantic factors like referring to Nigeria or not. &mdash;Leif Arne Storset 21:16, 11 November 2015 (UTC) Relisted. Jenks24 (talk) 12:11, 19 November 2015 (UTC)


 * I'm reasonably sure that Advance-fee fraud is more common than either. I'd support that title over the ones discussed above, unless there's a good reason for it not to be there. However, I would also support the proposed move as an improvement over the current title. 209.211.131.181 (talk) 06:45, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm personally disturbed that the initial move (419 -> advanced fee scam) happened without a discussion. That being said, I support the idea that Advance-fee fraud is a better term and probably more common phrase. Centerone (talk) 15:39, 12 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Move back to 419 scam. Refocus & trim article if need be.  There's an infinite number of forms of fraud involving deception to get someone to send money to you; such an article would be rambling and draw connections that don't exist.  *Most* of the article is on the 419 scam, and the parts that aren't may well be WP:OR awkwardly grafted on. SnowFire (talk) 05:05, 16 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Relisting comment. Several valid alternatives have been presented, more input needed. Jenks24 (talk) 12:11, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

In support of my preference expresses above, I note that "advance-fee fraud" (with or without the hyphen) is the term preferred by the US Department of the Treasury and SEC (and seemingly by the US government generally), by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, by London's Metropolitan Police , by the Australian Institute of Criminology , by the South African Reserve Bank , and by Interpol (which, like many of these considers "419" to be one form of advance-fee fraud). Unsurprisingly, it also seems to be preferred by the government of Nigeria. 209.211.131.181 (talk) 19:18, 19 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Support: per Jenks24, The article should be "Advance-fee scam". I'm not averse to "Advance-fee fraud" either. I don't support "419 Scam" though.--Jamie Tubers (talk) 01:18, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Clarification request: Support per whom again? Jenks24 did not support or oppose, just relisted and added some back-history about prior naming discussions.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  03:32, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
 * I wanted to refer to the nominator. Sorry for the confusion.--Jamie Tubers (talk) 19:44, 28 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Support weakly per nom, and strongly per WP:CONCISE. It's not technically wrong to refer to it as an advanced-fee scam, just a linguistically different approach (referring to a fee that is advanced by the victim rather than the advance of a fee by the victim; conceptually they're the same thing, of course); it's simply not necessary to use the longer version. It's also easily confused with the idea that there's something "advanced" (complex, new-fangled, etc.) about the fee or the scam. I'd also be okay with "fraud" over "scam", which ever is more WP:CONSISTENT with the category. If there is no consistency, then consistency should be imposed with more RMs, but mindful of WP:NOR if the move is toward "fraud" (not all scams are technically fraud; plenty of them are legal loophole exploitations, so it might be better to normalize to "scam").  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  03:30, 28 November 2015 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.


 * OMG! How many moves is this page going to have without decent discussion?? Geez! Advance vs Advanced? NOBODY uses the term advance fee SCAM.. First it was moved without any discussion and now this..! Centerone (talk) 00:36, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

See also the earlier discussion on this topic on this very page under the heading. The term "419" links this type of scam with Nigeria and promotes stereotypes regardless of its applicability (many advance-fee fraud scams do indeed originate from Nigeria ⟮original research: 17% of non-free-mail AFF scams come from or directly refer to Nigeria, which is the plurality but not the majority. Free mail providers represent 43% of AFF scams overall, and only 6% of those have bodies that reference Nigeria and/or a neighboring country⟯). Still, the "419" moniker is significantly more concise than "Advance fee fraud" and I've never seen it listed as "AFF" (I'm in the anti-spam industry). I find the new name "Advance-fee scam" to be acceptable, though I preferred the previous "Advance-fee fraud" name and would secondarily prefer "Advance-fee fraud scam" (which I do not consider redundant) over "Advance-fee scam" (which is obviously still better than anything referencing 419 or Nigeria). Adam KatzΔ☎  03:08, 30 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Not sure who you're responding to, but as far as the term goes "advance fee fraud" is used as mentioned in the above discussion: "I note that "advance-fee fraud" (with or without the hyphen) is the term preferred by the US Department of the Treasury [2] and SEC[3] (and seemingly by the US government generally), by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police [4], by London's Metropolitan Police [5], by the Australian Institute of Criminology [6], by the South African Reserve Bank [7], and by Interpol (which, like many of these considers "419" to be one form of advance-fee fraud) [8]. Unsurprisingly, it also seems to be preferred by the government of Nigeria" Centerone (talk) 06:12, 30 January 2016 (UTC)
 * I have to agree - the name Advance Fee Scam is not appropriate and does not meet common definitions. Even where the US government uses 419 with these activities, it uses 419 fraud, not scam. The scam would be the con the scammer uses, whereas the act would be fraud. Further the common misuse of the word scam detracts from the seriousness of this type of fraud. If we wished, we could call it a Red Event, but it would not serve as a common point tying up with legal and law enforcement definitions and just causes confusion. The bottom line is that the term Advance Fee Scam is not used internationally. I hope this explanation clarifies this confusion. DerekSmythe (talk) 00:19, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

Mobile Tower Frauds in India
In India the Mobile Tower Frauds are popular. they are one of the Advance fee scam. The fraudster publishes the tempting advertisement for installation of mobile towers in leading news paper. The print media i.e. dailies are used as first medium to inform the prospective victims about scheme. The victims contact the fraudster on given mobile number/ toll free number in the advertisement. The fraudster ask the victim to deposit small registration amount and later increases his demands on account of government tax, service charge, clearance certificate fee etc. The victim deposits the money to fraudsters bank account through bank wire-transfer. later fraudster switches off their mobile and victims face huge financial loss. I am of the opinion that Mobile Tower Fraud in India shall be added to the 'Advance fee Scam'. Similarly the 'Print media Daily news paper Classifieds' shall also be added under 'Anonymous communication' in present article.

I have created one article on wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_Tower_Fraud and  waiting for further improvement.

Harishk.its (talk) 04:43, 17 February 2016 (UTC) Harish Kumar

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Check or cheque?
There are almost an equal number of uses (around twenty or so each) of the words "check" and "cheque". To be consistent within the article, we should use only one spelling. But which one? Being an American, I prefer "check", but I am agnostic on the issue for this particular article, since it is not clear whether it deals with something that affects more Americans than Brits, or vice versa. — Loadmaster (talk) 15:49, 26 August 2016 (UTC)


 * I agree that the article should favor the "check" spelling over "cheque". I think the "cheque" spelling might come from its use in things like travelers cheques, which is probably more of a marketing term. And travelers checks do tend to be used more for scams as well, since they may not be tied to a specific account. So scammers have probably taken to that term to make their scams sound more legitimate or something. But most banks use the "check" spelling, so this article should favor that, unless we're referring to a specific type of "traveler's cheque", in which case the alternative spelling should be used. Seeing as how no one seems to have commented on this since August 2016, I went ahead and made the change. WTF? (talk) 21:10, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

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Lifelines
In emergency situations, the Lifeline (Family) is cut by using security measures recommended by "Professionals." Are there any case studies I can cite regarding the death of a loved one who could not acquire the lifeline due to abuses? It is apparent to me that enemies sponsoring drug lords have set this expectation to kill persons in first-world countries and the system is only getting worse. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.44.1.11 (talk) 00:55, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

Naming
There are scams listed here that should not be classified as advance fee scams. Specifically the kind where the victim believes they have been sent money and are then asked to return some of it. They are not "advance fee" scams because the victim is not sending money "in advance". Here are some examples of usages that exclude the "returned payment" form of scam. Hoax-slayer Investor.gov FBI US Department of Treasury Canadian Anti-fraud centre DJ Clayworth (talk) 17:31, 30 March 2019 (UTC)

Daily Mail source
Subheading 41 cites the Daily Mail - isn't that an unreliable source by Wikipedia's standards? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.90.153.246 (talk) 16:40, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

Repetitive Language
The article uses the same words in two different places.

In the article introduction the last paragraph reads:

"While Nigeria is most often the nation referred to in these scams, they originate in other nations as well. In 2006, 61% of internet criminals were traced to locations in the United States, while 16% were traced to the United Kingdom, and 6% to Nigeria. Other nations known to have a high incidence of advance-fee fraud include: Ivory Coast, Togo, South Africa, the Netherlands, Spain, Poland and Jamaica. The number "419" refers to the section of the Nigerian Criminal Code dealing with fraud, the charges and penalties for offenders. "

In the section "History", this is written.

"The spread of e-mail and email harvesting software significantly lowered the cost of sending scam letters by using the Internet. While Nigeria is most often the nation referred to in these scams, they may originate in other nations as well. For example, in 2006, 61% of Internet criminals were traced to locations in the United States, while 16% were traced to the United Kingdom and 6% to locations in Nigeria. Other nations known to have a high incidence of advance-fee fraud include Ivory Coast, Togo, South Africa, the Netherlands, and Spain. "

These paragraphs contain content that is virtually the same, making this article a bit repetitive. I think this should be fixed. 47A74 (talk) 15:35, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

Using 2006 statistics only is incomplete and misleading
The article almost makes it seems that the label "Nigerian prince scam" and the like are unwarranted. But there was indeed a "local industry" of that scam type by criminals operating in Nigeria, specifically, in the 1990s. They may deserve "credit" as the "inventors" of the "internet email spam" version of the fraud. The manager of Banco Noroeste reportedly went to Nigeria, to check the matter personally; and was received by multiple people acting out the charade -- so he continued to believe in it. The Nigerian government eventually cracked down on that type of crime, while criminals elsewhere started using the same scheme, often using Nigeria's "brand".. However, by using 2006 statistics about the sources of the scam, without any earlier ones, the article is downright misleading. --Jorge Stolfi (talk) 19:34, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

pinball sale scammer - world cup soccer 94'
as we all new there scams and fraud come in all shapes and sizes. One inparticular is aimed towards piball machines and their owners. a fraudster will search on the web different websites such as craigslist and kijiji, looking for wanted ads (i.e WANTED PINBALL MACHINES TMNT, ghostbusters world cup soccer etc etc) the frauster will then post an ad for one of the pinball games listed in the wanted ad at a reasonable price not to throw up a red flag but it will be miles away Onoway, alberta), too far for you to drive. once you answer to the ad he will openly offer his phone number and ask if your free to chat. when you call him your nerves will be more at ease (you have his phone number and his profile on kijiji is verified as a 1 year member. after he talks the talk and tells you he is only selling to down size his collect, but only this one, or needs to pay for a home repair or any good reason to sell the pinball, you will ask if he will ship ( of course he will, his ad says perferred local deal but willing to ship) he says he will ship with day and ross and provides you with a fake quote number (photo shopped shipping address and recieving address) you wont know its fake until you follow up with the shipping company... and they say the info you gave doesnt match up and that they cannot release any info about the quote number you provided. so once you agree with the quote you will will offer a paypal payment, he suggests email transfer, which you would think is secure going from bank to bank (i assure you is not) he sends pictures of the pinball machine and a picture of it loading up in a van ready to be dropped off at the shippers depot. after al is paid and no tracking is given the fraudster doesnt stop responding to your calls or emails (which i found strange). the last message you will recieve is that "this is xxxxx"S wife, he left his phone at home yesterday and never returned again. im assuming they hope you have a heart and dont bother calling the police, because its now a "missing person" situation, or maybe they dont have access to the money yet (maybe $400 a day withdrawl limit or $1000 a week).

here is the info for the scammer that i managed to find and highly possibly location.

r.fogwe@gmail.com amin.sai@gmail.com

Amin Saiful 587 605 4346 Onoway, AB

possible other locations, miniopolis MN, calgary AB, Arlington TX — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.252.211.143 (talk) 20:11, 29 October 2020 (UTC)


 * The scam described above is a non-delivery scam. Ref Interpol Purple Alert and 5 reasons non-delivery scams work . Note the mention of "puppies". This is a distinctly different scam operating in a different way perpetuated by a different group of actors. This just shows some of the major problem with this article. Non-delivery fraud is a form of advance fee fraud, just like 419-fraud is a form of advance fee fraud. But the very definition of advance fee fraud predates the 419-fruad phenomena.